The “real sloberknocker” edition:

Ajinca: I just know Jay hates it when I’m right. First about the number of wins the Raptors will have this year and about Alexis. Give him some run and let him show you he can play. If James Johnson has “earned’” it, let Ajinca do the same.

Alabi: back to Tim Horton’s country. See you in line tomorrow, big boy.

Barbosa: didn’t play and boy it was noticeable. Very little cohesion in the first half and you could sense it happening when Leandro didn’t come off the bench.

Bargnani: another night rocking the blazer.

Bayless: deserved more minutes for two reasons: he deserved it tonight and why push Jose so hard in a meaningless game? Bayless’ balls were dropping harder and more consistent than Justin Biebers.

Calderon: back on the floor and showing as much rust as a Pinto in a junkyard in a rainforest. Add in the fact that his bodypillow Andrea wasn’t playing and Jose’s night was a write-off.

Davis: playing heavy minutes in 5 nights is taking its toll on Mr. Personality. You could see he was trying but it was like making a 6 year old eat that last mouthful of asparagus.

DeRozan: I swear in 4 years he is going to have that “I was WRONGED!!!” Reggie Miller look down pat. Annoying as hell. Another Raptor that played well tonight, though. Really hoping he finishes the season strong, takes a little break and then gets back into the gym. The lockout worries me.

Dorsey: He played for three minutes. This statement applies both to Joey’s game and my sex life.

Evans: he was a scoring machine tonight, going 6 of 8 and trying to spur his teammates on. He wasn’t as in-your-face as I would have liked to have seen, but kudos for showing people how it’s done.

A. Johnson: pulled after tweaking his ankle in warmups when he saw a shiny object in row 13 of section 108.

J. Johnson: exhibit A of why it’s not a good idea to watch Wrestlemania just before playing in a sporting event. After playing like he had just lost his best friend in the first half, he comes out and just facepalms Joey Graham. Not that I didn’t enjoy it, but how he doesn’t get a flagrant and a fine after that, I’ll never know. Good use of hands, though.

Kleiza: ooompah!

Weems: 4 assists, 4 rebounds, 6 of 10, 4 trips to the line. Heck, at times that could be his cumulative stats from 6 games! Stating the obvious, he played his game tonight. Not sure if he felt with so many injuries he was untouchable or what, but he held it down.

Wright: look who saw some floor time! Look who still plays like the bitch that he is. He’s not worth our time.

Driving The Bus: Reggie Evans

Under The Bus: James Johnson

  • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

    Rap’s lose to Cav’s- wasn’t even close.

    Jay- our youth, inexperience, girth and injuries…….

    Ajinca is another soft Euro big man that likes to shoot jumpers ala Bargnani.

    JuJu is not a bitch but a man for standing up to Jay and his bull chit-recognize.

  • El

    Phew, Wizards lost, Kings lost, which means no ground lost in the hunt for 3rd. The finish line is close.

    • Sam Holako

      The Raptors are actually 3rd worst since the Wizards own the tiebreaker. It’s looking much better for us draft-wise.

  • Ali

    This was a great game for us. In the absence of AB, our defense seemed to be much better and we were able to do alot of things that we could not normally do when AB is on the floor.

    Bayless was huge. He is starting to get the knack for PG and I loved it how he got his teammates involved and made the flow of the offence much smoother. Great Steal by BC !!!

    James Johnson also showed why Raptor Fans love him so much. Toughness, Skills and … He has it all. As Tim mentioned in the forum, the similarities between him and Pippen is astonishing. Games like this remind you how the Sky is the limit for this guy. Again, Kudos to BC for this trade.

    • mac

      What the F game were you watching. The god dam Cavs yes the totally pathetic Cleveland Cavaliers kicked our ass. Up by 20 at halftime. I especially like the half-time highlight when the cavs were on a fast break. Nobody attempted to slow the guy down, Ajinca just kept running in front of him like an escort service then let him by where dd just stood there like a pylon for an uncontested lay-up.
      The only positive from this game is Reggie’s scoring touch and Bayless ability to put up points on a regular basis.

    • Malefax

      This has to be sarcasm, right? Right?

      • Ali

        no sarcasm. The game showed that without AB we are a better defensive team. Also, you saw how Bayless run the team without AB and got other guys involved !! That is huge Plus for me. Then look at James Johnson, tough as nail and a great defender. Then you have the 2nd punch off the bench in Money Weems …. Future is bright people. This is a great team in making …

        • Junior

          lmfao…another retard.

        • erinobrien

          you said they played better defense? why were they down by 20 at the half? why did they try and fight their way back into the game if they “are a better defensive team” why couldnt they hold their own on the freakin Cleveland Cavaliers? when you explain that to me then you could argue they are but as of now they are still not good with/without AB.

        • Statement

          Ali, I love the enthusiasm. But seriously, this team sucks.

        • Malefax

          How can… wait… you think the defense was better?

          Okay, I’m not paying any attention to you anymore

    • Tim W.

      I have to agree. This must be a joke. And for the record, I simply said that their rookies years had similar stats (if you count this as Johnson’s rookie year) and that the both had similar strengths and weaknesses, at the same point in their careers and that Johnson should look to Pippen as an example. I DO NOT think Johnson will be the next Scottie Pippen.

      • John

        Similar Strength and Weakness !! Similar Rookie Year Stats !!

        What are you trying to say ? :) Don’t be Shy, we all know what you trying to do.

    • erinobrien

      realize in the two games they played the Cavs Raptors won WITH Bargnani so what are you trying to say??
      I could imagine they could or shouldve beaten them without him?

      • Nilanka15

        There’s no way in hell those posts were serious.

  • WhatWhat

    Imagine if we played Alexis and Andrea together. Teams would be so intimdated by our forwards with girl names.

    • sixtyeight

      I’ve alway found that calling a girl Andrea is weird. You know, Andrea comes from the Greek ανήρ, that means man (opposed to woman, man as a human being with balls, beard and all that). Oh well…

      • Bendit

        Most people dont know Greek

    • cesco

      Better Alexis and Andrea than Ru-Paul and Andrea.

      • sleepz

        I would take a team full of Rupauls (that isn’t his birth name by the way) over a team of Alexis’s or Andrea’s.

        • cesco

          A team full of Ru-Pauls will be running the floor like turtles , everyone waiting around while the ball holder try to figure how to go around 4 defenders (no outside threat) and defensively will be worse than the current version of the Raps.

          • Nilanka15

            Are we still doing the “Who’s better: Bosh or Bargnani” thing? The answer is painfully obvious.

          • sleepz

            Are you kidding me?lol Don’t let hate get in the way of truth.

    • Ol’ Dirty Raptor

      at least the raptors can win the title for most mature fan base.

    • Jonfe

      i guess you’re a big tough manly man named latrell or something. way to be an idiot.

  • Junior Maurice

    man imagine the season ends today we would have, had a top 3 pick

  • Tank

    Alexis Ajinca= a French Bargnani.

  • Tu

    Lol did Joey Graham really try to mess with James Johnson? Forget the Raps game, I’d pay to see that.

  • LettheABbashingstart

    Raptors lose without Bargnani ? How come ? No one to blame.

    • WhatWhat

      Are White Swan defenders really clinging to the defense of basically: “without him we’re supposed to become a GOOD team”? Really man…really…?

      1. In reading so many comments on this site, NOBODY said that we would become a good team w/o Bargnani. Seriously so find one blaming him for EVERYTHING. This is just pure hyperbole. Seriously, show me a comment and I’ll concede this happily here.

      2. Calderon is almost as bad defensively as Bargnani, and he played a good chunk of minutes while contributing nearly nothing. He somehow get 9 freaking assists though.

      3. The system and coaching is terrible, most agree on that. BUT it is so BECAUSE Bargnani and Calderon are getting many minutes…mostly together exacerbating things. There is no way in hell a good coach would be starting Bargnani or Calderon. At least not with this roster we have. Jay preaches defense, but players can’t possibly take him seriously when Calderon and Bargnani never get reprimanded for being such plyons.

      4. (The but that-player-not-named-Bargnani is a bad defender argument.) They try on defense, and we will give them time to get better. If someone like DeRozan still sucks on defense, we’ll bag on him too, don’t worry.

      5. Bargnani gets so much “hate” because he clearly can be an absolutely dominant player. He would be if he didn’t have a black hole for a heart. The frustration of wasting 5 years comes out in the comments. Even Toronto media is questioning his impact (or lack thereof) on the team. You don’t find it serious that Ed Davis has outrebounded him. If he is going to be successful, it won’t be here. We need to part ways. I’ll cry when he takes his 22PPG somewhere else, but time heals all wounds.

      6. To move in the right direction, toward respectable defense and winning, we need to move the players that there are no hope for. The first name that come to most fans’ minds is Bargnani.

      7. We lost because the team played atrocious defense. Surely you can’t be arguing that having Bargnani would help us defensively. If anything there’s a pretty strong argument that the defense is still JUST AS terrible w/o him. I would rebut that the effort, chemistry, and general competitiveness of the team is much, much higher without him (and Calderon) but w/e…

      • Junior

        stfu dummy.

        • pran

          excellent rebuttal, with counterpoints, you and most of your friends (not mountio and a few others) disgust the hell out of me.

          and 4 people liked it? stop liking your own comments.

          • hateslosing

            There was a time where discussions on why Bargs should stay revolved around the mismatches he causes, his potential, and the fact that it often takes a long time for Euro bigs to develop to the NBA. What happened guys? Why is every argument “we’re better with Bargs” or “we’re not worse with Bargs”? Can’t you at least try to explain yourself beyond “he scores 20 points…that coooooolll”. Try discussing how he spreads the floor to open up driving lanes for Demar, or how he is almost impossible to guard if his shot is falling.
            Also, if you want to take shots at Tim, try attacking his arguments instead of him. For example, Tim oftn says Bargs is a bad defender and goes out of his way to prove it, but he has never fully explained why Bargs can’t improve on D.

            • Nilanka15

              I can’t speak for Tim, but I would think that 5 years of showing little to no defensive/rebounding improvement is all you need to know about why it would be foolish to still hold out hope that Bargnani can improve in those categories.

            • Tim W.

              As Nilanka mentioned, it’s been 5 years. Is his defense better than it was last year? Or the year before? Or the year before? It’s not that I don’t think Bargnani can improve on defense, but there really seems to be no evidence whatsoever that he will. If you can show me some, I’d love to see it.

              The fact that, after 5 years, he seems to still have no clue how to play proper team defense tells me he simply doesn’t have a high enough basketball IQ. Without exaggeration, I play ball with guys at the local gym who understand defense better than Bargnani seems to. I honestly don’t seem the defensive acumen with Bargnani to have any hope he will improve his defense. At least more than marginally.

              • Steve

                Tim is right.

                Just take a look at how defensively sound and organized this team was the last 2 games that AB was not in the mix. You can see Bayless keeping his man infront of him. You can see DD stopping the other SG !! Defense improved so much by taking AB out that one wants to wish this move has happend earlier.

                It is really a blessing to have Tim here to point to us after each games, all season long that HOW bad AB’s defense is and HOW good this team’s defense will be without him and finally 77 game into the season, we can all see what Tim has been talking about.

                • Nilanka15

                  It’s amazing how effortlessly one twists words in an attempt to prove a point.

                  I don’t remember reading anything suggesting this team would be a great defensive team without Bargnani.

                • Tim W.

                  Why do I have to explain every time that simply because Bargnani is a poor defender doesn’t mean that taking him away from the equation makes the Raptors a good defensive team. With or without Bargnani, the team has little talent and is not good defensively.

                  Once again…..

                  Bargnani is not the only problem the Raptors have, but he is a big one. Why is this so hard to understand?

              • hateslosing

                I think he can improve as a rebounder which I think you’ll agree is important to defense. He is big enough and he has now said he plans to work on it in the offseason so I hold out hope on that front. I also think he can improve a lot as a man defender since he seems to have regressed a bit in that category this year, so I see no reason he couldn’t get back to where he was or better with a bit of work.
                Help wise we may be stuck. He does seem to have pretty bad instincts and he attaches himself to his man and ignores the ball alot. Still, I think if he can get to the line a bit more, improve his man D, and improve his rebounding he will have done enough to be kept on the team as our starting center.

                Also, I was trying to give an example of a way to start a discussion without resulting to childish name calling.

                • Tim W.

                  I would like to think Bargnani can improve his rebounding, but, like his defense, there’s simply been no evidence that it will happen. Per 36 minutes, he’s averaged between 5.2 and 6.3 rpg over the course of his career, and this year was a career low. The alarming thing is that, with the increased offensive load, just about every other aspect of his game has suffered.

                  I know that people love the fact that he scores, but I simply don’t see that as enough to make up for his weaknesses. The people who say I wouldn’t be happy if he averaged 30 ppg don’t get it, and I’m afraid they never will. I didn’t throw darts at a group picture of the Raptors to decide who I criticize. I criticize him because I feel his game is so flawed that it would be better for the Raptors to move on rather than try and figure out how to make it work.

                  As for the namecalling, I think there is a certain portion of this board that will namecall no matter what you say. They obviously don’t see how it makes them look worse than whoever they insult.

        • Tim W.

          Really? That’s what you have to add? The fact that 4 people “like this” really doesn’t bode well for this board.

          • Dash

            As does your presence.

      • Ali

        well Said. We are a better team without AB. We had a better flow to our offence, our defense was strong and guys seemed to feed off each others energy.

      • Ol’ Dirty Raptor

        Calderon got 9 assists because he has excellent court vision, and he’s a great passer.

        Unfortunately, he doesn’t have the athleticism required to be a starting nba point guard (i.e. he can’t defend, and he can’t break nba defenders off the dribble) – especially since he’s lost a step because of his injuries.

        People seem to think that someone average almost 10 assists per game out of luck, or because they simply pass to an open guy.

        Jose definitely has his shortcomings, but he does have some skills. Unfortunately he’s paid like a starter. No need to stress over it though, because it’s not like this team is gonna be good in the near-term anyway. The bigger concern is finding his long-term replacement.

    • sleepz

      Cleveland is playing a lot better than the earlier times we played them during the year and Baron is the best player on the court between these 2 teams when he’s motivated to go.

      That being said Andrea’s jacket (or blazer?) he was wearing last night was dope.

  • Junior

    anyone who blames this teams woes on andrea bargnani is a straight up dumb motherfucker.

    • raptorwin

      your the dumb fuck believing in a waste of a player barney. Like mike james was dropping 20ppg when he was playing in toronto where is he now.

      • Junior

        lmfao…another dummy.

        • Statement

          Junior = someone who contributes nothing and should be banned

          • Nilanka15

            The problem is that he keeps changing his screen name. First “dan hardy”, then “joshua reynolds”, and now “Junior”.

            • Tim W.

              In his defense, he’s obviously a kid. One thing I have learned as a father (and uncle) is that kids simply don’t make sense half of the time, and the other half of the time they’re just completely nuts.

          • pran

            junior=cesco/jon trying to blow off some steam

            • Binderjeet

              they got your mom for that.

              • KL

                LMAO in real life!

              • pran

                wow so much of a pussy that you can’t use your real name, goddamn racist prick. I dont even know why you bother taking time out of your busy schedule, my fettucini linguini isn’t going to cook itself you goddamn wop.

                • Elo

                  Lol, like your name is any less generic. Yeah, I can totally single you out…not. Let’s see you be man enough to post your details on here and “real name”, until then you can just shut up.

                  Lol and calling the guy your personal chef is a weak comeback moron. Go blow off some steam rofl.

  • Valit

    How many games between Raps and Cavs were tonite? By the look of it more than 2. The game I saw, was a terrible one from Raps perspective because even though it might help us get a “super star” in the next draft, it is creating a losing mentality where it’s OK to play like in the schoolyard but get paid like an NBA guy. The game I saw showed me once again that if Ajinca and Weems get a contract here something it’s wrong with this organization. If JJ ( who will have a statue in front of ACC soon) will be more than a bench player, we are doomed. This game proved once again that Bayless can be a decent undersized combo who can score but cant run an offence. Oh, and Bargs dint play…the defence was as bad. All in all, let’s rejoice : we have around 100 games until 2013..countdown is starting…

    • James

      JJ can be starter in this league as of now !!! Just Wait and see.

    • sleepz

      “This game proved once again that Bayless can be a decent undersized combo who can score but cant run an offence.”

      +1 I couldn’t agree more. I know there is a lot of recent Jerryd love but he’s not a pg. The increased numbers might indicate it but running an offence is clearly not his forte.

      He knows how to get his offence but not facilitate or set-up shots for his teammates. When he drives to the rim he is clearly looking for his shot first and foremost. I respect his heart and moxie but I will be glad if they can find a taker for him in the off-season especially if Barbosa (a much better version of Bayless) is still on the roster next year.

      • Nilanka15

        I think it’s an almost certainly that Barbosa will pick up his option for next year….thus making Bayless completely useless to us.

      • Bendit

        I wonder if there are any stats around to show how early in the shot clock he takes his shots. Might be a metric to determine/not his pg instincts. He has certainly shown his offence of late.

      • Antisleepz

        Not sure if I agree with you sleepz…

        • sleepz

          LOL, It’s all good. We can agree to disagree and have different opinions.

  • hateslosing

    I didn’t see the game but that is a damn happy sounding Roll call in a game where the Cavs…The Frigging Cleveland Cavaliers handed our asses to us.

  • RapthoseLeafs

    All I know is … without Reggie, this would’ve been a blow-out.

  • sangaman

    It should be obvious even to the statisticians on this site that the raps have NO defenders (Except Amir Evans and Wright) ..Trade the whole team and keep these three and Bargs for scoring. And get a new coach..ASAP.

    • Tim W.

      You kind of lose it with the line about keeping Bargnani. Sorry, but if defense is that bad, then Bargnani is the first one that needs to go. Shouldn’t you simply try and find a scorer who also defends? What good is a scorer if he’s giving up what he scores?

      • Whatwhy

        why don’t you find the player who can score at ease 20-30 points a game and also defend and also is willing to come to Toronto while getting paid only 9 Million a year and THEN we discuss trading AB ??!!

        Look we have to pay a guy like Amir , almost 7 million a year to grab us 6 boards and score 8 points a game and now you are making it sound like getting that efficient offensive player who is good defender while getting paid so little is so easy ?!!

        Personal agenda !!! Not sure but it sure smells like it.

        • Tim W.

          20-30 points is a HUGE margin. Bargnani scores 21 ppg on 18 shots. Good. Very good even, but certainly not irreplaceable.

          The argument that you don’t seem to understand is that while Bargnani does score 21 ppg, if he’s playing poor defense, how much is that really worth? Wouldn’t a player who scores 15 ppg but plays good defense contribute as much or more?

          And by the way, since when does Amir make almost $7 million a season? He’s making $5.5 million this year, which is LESS than the average salary for the league. Amir, by the way, is more productive overall than Bargnani.

          It’s easier for his fans to believe it’s a personal agenda, but it’s just common sense.

          • sangaman

            Poor “help” defense… Thats about seive like wingmen and guards…Including DeRozan But no-one on this site seems to mention his defensive liabilities. The team needs a new coach a young bigger Reggie clone, and a guard who can score and more importantly stop someone-anyone…

            • Tim W.

              Are you kidding? DeRozan’s defensive problems are often mentioned. The difference, though, is that DeRozan is a SG, not a big man, and is only in his second year. A poor defensive SG will hurt your defense. A poor defensive big man will kill your defense. And the thing about defending the perimeter, as has been mentioned, is that no one can stop the better guards in the league one on one. The NBA has made it impossible on purpose. That’s why help defense is so important.

          • Albertaman

            You are right Tim.
            I mean looking at the team in the last two game and how they improved significantly without AB just shows the rest of team are all very capable defenders. You can start from Bayless and DD and go down the list to Amir and Evans. All great defenders who have been handicap with the presence of AB on the floor all season long. If anyone wants a proof, then they just have to look at last two games and how the defense was tight and other teams had major problems scoring against us.

            As far as offence, I agree with you again, The guy is ONLY scoring 21.5 points a game, big deal !!

            What matters is that he Only grabs 5.2 rebound versus Amir who is our rebounding machine, our Rock on defense who grabs a whopping 6.4 rebound a game !! 1.2 rebound difference, man that is hugeeeeee !!! This is why this team is NOT good. This should be the focus.

            Plus, look how smooth was our offence against Cavs. Who needs AB when Evans can be your leading scorer for half time ??!! When you have Bayless getting his teammates invovled and dishing out double digit assists.

            You are right team. The last 2 games simply proved the points you were making all season long.

            • Tim W.

              Yes, two games is most definitely a big enough sample pool to go about forming opinions. Especially two games from an injury ravaged team at the end of a long losing season. You should most definitely make conclusions based on this. That wouldn’t be foolish at all!

              • FAQ

                Your wish might come true. It seems like AB is not playing the next game and so will your sample size increase. Time to prove your Hypothesis you Basketball genius :) You have been flooding this site all season long that Toronto will be a better defensive team without AB on the floor. Well, lets see if the 3rd time is the charm 😉

                • Tim W.

                  What is it about Bargnani criticism that makes you so offended?

                  The fact that you’re still here after guaranteeing last year the Raptors would start the season 0-33 or else you’d never post again, says something about you.

                  Oh, and the sample includes the games against Chicago and Orlando, where they played pretty well. Or are we only counting games you want?

            • Statement

              Andrea Bargnani Wins Produced = -5.8

              Amir Johnson Wins Produced = +6.0


              Andrea Bargnani Offensive minus Defensive Rating = -10
              Amir Johnson Offensive minus Defensive Rating Defensive rating = +12


              Andrea Bargnani Net PER (His – Opponent) = -4.9

              Amir Johnson Net PER (His – Opponent) = +2.2

              Teams score 5 more points/100 possessions than the Raptors when Bargnani is on the floor.

              Teams score 4 less points/100 possessions that the Raptors when Amir is on the floor


              Andrea Bargnani 2 year adjusted +/- (system Dallas Mavericks employ) = -5.74

              Amir Johnson 2 year adjusted +/- = +3.57

              Andrea Bargnani TS% = .533 (13th out of 17 players who are 6’10 or larger, have a usage rate of at least 20% and have started at least 40 games – i.e. below average scorer relative to players who are used the same way)

              Andrea Bargnani salary 2010-2011 = 8.5 million

              Amir Johnson salary 2010-2011 = 5. million dollars

              But wait….

              Andrea Bargnani = 21.4 PPG (on 18 shots)

              Amir Johnson = 10 PPG (on 7 shots)

              YAY POINTZ!!!

              • Mr Stat

                LOOOLLL, WWWWRRROOONNGGGG :) :) :)

                How did you calculate the win produced ??
                Raptors have 21 wins this season. From that 21 wins, there are only 3 or 4 that AB is absence.
                The rest AB is present. Check out the games and you can verify this.

                There is no need to go with +/- number that makes no sense what so ever and is quite noncontroversial.

                But I agree with you, Amir Johnson is much better rebounder , 1.2 per game more than AB 😉 and that makes a huge difference.

                And Also, the reason that Amir gets only 7 shot is that he is not talented enough to get more 😉 so there you go, that stat you posted makes no sense. He can simply not get rid of his defender to get his shot off :) :)

                YAAYYY, POINTZZ !!!!

                • Tim W.

                  He gave the links where he got the stats. Multiple respected websites. They’re not perfect, but put together they make a VERY strong case.

                  What do you have to back up argument?

                  And no one is saying that Amir can score 21 ppg. You’re missing the point. The point is that Amir, despite scoring half of what Bargnani does, is more valuable to the team. Some fans give far too much weight to how much a player scores, though. The great players were often great scorers, but it was all the other things they did that made them great.

                • A J

                  You are right. I looked at these stats a while back and suggested that Amir Johnson should be the first option or a close 2nd after DD. They are both much better offensive players than AB and these stats simply proves it.

                  I mean look, Amir is getting less minutes, less shot attempts and still almost gives us same points.

                  As far as 1.2 rebound difference, that is big number in NBA.

                • Mr Stat

                  There was an article in ESPN few days ago that they guy blasted +/- stats and how they showed Jareed Jefferies was the best players on the court despite playing like 10 minutes.

                  You want to know the source of my stats, look at NBA. com and stop writting nonsense and look at the 21 game that Raptors won.

                  It will take less than 5 minutes to see how many of those 21 games did AB played and in how many he did NOT.

                  Our team wins at higher rate with AB ( data is there for anyone to see) than with Amir.

                  Just look at the numbers :)

                • Tim W.

                  I’ve never been a big believer in +/- stats, but that’s not all the evidence Statement gave. Just about every advanced stat says that Amir is more productive and valuable than Bargnani. It’s pretty overwhelming.

                  As for the team winning at a higher rate with Bargnan than with Amir, the stats are completely inconclusive. Simply going on win/loss records, yes, it supports that, but Evans missed most of the games that Bargnani missed, and Evans seems to have a bigger impact on their win/loss record than anyone. Barbosa also missed most of his games when Bargnani was out. Calderon, as well. Also, opponents had an average win rate of over 60% of the games that Bargnani missed.

                  If you want to argue that Bargnani’s best games have a bigger impact than Amir’s best games, you might have a case, but the problem is that the rest of the time, Bargnani’s liabilities on defense hurt the team when he’s not playing really well, and most of the time he’s simply not playing that well, as the record can attest to. He’s got to do far more than score 21 ppg with poor defense and rebounding to have a positive impact. And that’s what he did for most of the year.

                • Nilanka15

                  No point arguing with someone who believes wins/losses is all you need to measure a player’s worth.

                • Mr Stat

                  Win or losses is what gets you to play off, it is what gets you to sell more tickets, it is what gets the fans excited and it is the ultimate goal of professional sport :) :)

                  Sorry that I am using that as my measuring stick and not 1.2 rebound advantage by Amir over AB .

                • Tim W.

                  I’m assuming that’s not what he meant. On the surface, Bargnani has a SLIGHTLY positive impact on the win/loss record, but a deeper look tells you that’s not necessarily true, or at least the results are inconclusive, at best. Was the record slightly worse because Bargnani didn’t play, or was it because Evans also didn’t play most of those games, or was it because the quality of opponents was much better than average, or was it due to injuries of other players?

                  You can’t simply say because this thing happened, it was obviously the result of this other thing. Not when there could have been multiple causes, as is the case here.

                • Mr Stat

                  “Simply going on win/loss records, yes, it supports that”

                  Isn’t that the ultimate measure for success in this league and not +/- or individual stats !!

                  To Look at Evan’s impact, you can do the same study, Look at number of games that Raptors won with Evan in the line up and AB out, versus number of games in which AB is in and Evan has been out.

                  Again, It will take only 5 minutes and once again, the data points that we win more games with AB in versus AB out in comparison with Evans.

                  Bottom line is, we win more with AB here and with him not being here. Problem for Raptors in NOT AB, it is the system and lack of talent in almost all other positions.

  • tamara

    Bayless needs to learn how to PASS the ball. He is a POINT GUARD, sure he puts up numbers but at the end of the game when you only have 2 assists and your a point guard. Something needs to be said about that. Ajincia needs to get more playing time, if you watch that guy during shoot around he knocks down every single 3 that he takes (I understand it’s different during the game) BUT give the man a chance, we have nothing to lose at this point. Triano, please play Barbosa as our starting point guard!!

    • Nilanka15

      But Barbosa passes even less than Bayless does…

  • JustaGuy

    I am a casual reader of RR and am commenting for the first time. I have a question for the group of regulars here. Why does every thread evolve to the merits or lack thereof of Andrea Bargnani? I read supported and unsupported opinions on either side of the argument sprinkled with childish personal attacks. Why is there not more discussion on what (realistically) this terrible and rebuilding club should do to improve over time? The reality is, they currently have no championship calibre players on the roster. We should focus discussion on how to acquire one of those (almost certainly through the draft) as opposed to senseless arguments over the relative merits of what will be at best support players. Bargnani is a terrible defender who can be a tough cover offensively – but at $8 million he is a reasonable cap hit. So whether we keep him or trade him is more a question of who will really be a cornerstone on the team those players (two or three) are clearly not on this roster yet. Same thing for Calderon, while a relatively harsher cap hit, if he stays as a mentor to whomever our championship calibre point guard is or goes, really doesn’t matter much in the grand scheme of things. Some of you will say that Demar and Ed are young and have great potential – you kinow what you may be right, but more likely they are nice players on a championship team – not the cornerstones. As you go deeper into our current roster, the conversations are even less consequential.

    A championship caliber team requires 2-3 cornerstone players, 3-4 solid supporting pros and 3-4 specialists, with rest of the roster being largely filler.

    I’d love to see more discussion on how we get the first group as opposed to silly arguments on guys who are at best supporting cast types.

    I welcome your comments.

    • cesco

      I will volunteer the idea that if we tank for the next 10 years we may find the 2-3 cornerstone players thru the draft and that is not a sure thing .

    • Junior

      i welcome your sensibility. the problem in here is that idiots that vehemently proclaim andrea is not even close to our best player and that he is in fact our worst player are the same rampant rejects placing all the high lofty expectations on him. its backwards ass fucking retarded. it’s misdirected hostilities. bargnani supporters see him for what he is, he’s a decent bit player with room for growth on a good contract. morons in here put everything on him. how about they put it on who they perceive is our best players. they wont do that though. theyd rather cry n bitch and rant and be emo about bargs. its laughable.

      • roinuj

        lmao another retard

      • Nilanka15

        HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! The guy who REPEATEDLY calls people “bitches” and “dummies”, uses multiple screen names, and tells everyone to “stfu”, is here welcoming sensibility. What a joke.

    • Albertaman

      Great Post. Thank you for sharing it with us.

    • hateslosing

      Good post. People discuss Bargs mainly because its fun. He has become a massively polarizing figure to Raps fans so you know there will always be a good discussion if his name comes up. In the end there is only so much to discuss about what else we can do to get better and most of it gets a look in the forums. For example, there are always threads going on in the trade discussion on potential deals to bring in better guys. In terms of getting that one great player to lead this franchise out of the gutter, the hope seems to be one of our picks will pan out, so there is really very little to discuss there.

    • Statement

      Okay JustaGuy, my quick thoughts.

      Just quickly with Bargs. This year he is a BYC player I believe, that means the we can only get half the value of his contract if we trade him. But 2 things have to happen with him. He either has to be moved (next year maybe), or his minutes have to be reduced and he has to be used in a role that maximizes his efficiency (perhaps become a solid 3 point shooter and stop taking long twos). He just hurts the team too much (as my above stats have pointed out).

      Derozan also kills the team on the defensive end. The stats say that he is a poor defender as well. So there has to be improvement on that end. I don’t know how to get that improvement, perhaps through coaching or perhaps through experience. But I say wait until the end of his rookie contract to evaluate him, don’t lavish him with an undeserved contract (i.e. the Bargs mistake)

      Ed Davis and Amir Johnson should by all means be retained, they are both valuable players and can be part of a nice big-man rotation.

      James Johnson to me looks like a backup, he turns the ball over too much, can’t shoot and plays lacksadasical defense at times, but he has shown enough to warrant keeping. To me, I don’t see much value he brings over Julian Wright. So keep one or the other – I would slightly lean towards James Johnson as I feel there is more offensive potential there.

      Jose Calderon is a solid pro and obviously will be retained for the remainder of his contract (no takers and we probably wouldn’t receive equal value if we did find a taker). Hopefully the Raptors luck into the 1st pick so Irving can be taken. Then retain Bayless (he is still cheap) as the third string. Barbosa will pick up his player option but after next year he is a goner, no need for that one-dimensional no passing chucker.

      Continue to suck next year so that another high pick can be selected. Hopefully we can find a good SF who can be a starter in this league.

      As for Centre, I guess you’d have to try and find one through free agency.

      So the plan is, Irving, Derozan (though don’t lavish him with contract until he shows he can improve defensively/ SF Draft Pick/ Ed Amir / Free agent Centre

      • JustaGuy

        I like your thinking. Based on our draft position and what’s available this year it’s Irving or a 3, which I would argue Williams might be able to play as a pro. If the ping pong balls don’t deliver Irving, I’d make our pick and hope that Walker or Knight drop to the 12-15 range (unlikely) and see if we can pry a pick away from someone to grab the guy – though we’d probably have to give up someone we don’t really want to. Failing that, there’s always the following year for the PG. I would also agree that trade is the way to get a center. Two dimensional big guy’s, defense and rebounding, do come available – and we could afford a no offense center with the wings and PF’s we are talking about.
        Any way you look at it, we are two years away from being really competitive.

        • Statement

          Good call. At least two years I think. But lets but honest, the Heat are going to own the league for the next 5 years or so, so there is no chance of the Raps winning a championship in that period of time, unfortunately. Dwight Howard is going to have to go to the Lakers and the Celtics will have to start really showing their age until the Raptors have any chance of making it into the 2nd round.

          At least two years, I think.

      • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!!

        Barg’s BYC contract tag ends July 1, 2011.

        But by then the NBA will be most likely locked out.

        Why Irving?

        Most rookie pg’s not named Magic Johnson need at least 2-3 years to adjust & develop consistency in their game on a NBA level. As good as JWall is he isn’t helping the Wizards win many games as a rookie.

        Why not go after a proven NBA pg product like Felton or Lawson that come with certified NBA playoff experience?

        Whom one or the other should be made available this off season by Denver as both want to start next season.

        Don’t lavish DD with a contract until he proves that he can play D but yet Barg’s was rewarded & still being coddled? That will ensure that DD bolts to another NBA team at his 1st chance.

        You want to continue to suck next season as well- really?

        That kind of thinking will most likely lead the Rap’s to get caught up in the perpetual NBA Lottery on a yearly basis ala Minnesota or the LAC’s.

        The stability of stagnation where losing with a purpose is embraced by many caught up in the latest shrewd & cunning BC pr media spin.

        • Nilanka15

          Lawson and Felton are mediocre at best.

          It’s BC speak to assume we’ll be in the playoffs next year by acquiring a bunch of players who aren’t that good, yet might help us reach a ceiling of 41 wins.

          And in Felton’s case, he’s earning about 3 times that of what Irving would earn on a rookie scale contract. Money poorly spent.

          • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

            Mediocre at best?

            They are both better than what the Rap’s currently have at pg and are both better than Irving.

            I’m glad that you are not a talent scout for the Rap’s.

            Felton’s contract (7 mil) ends after the 2011-2012 season- try again. Thus cap space after a most likely strike shortened season.

            Gotta spend to win- recognize game or remain in the Lottery lane.

        • Tim W.

          You think the Raptors should pass on possibly a great player, in Irving, to get a player with a much lower ceiling but who is more proven? That’s a great way of building a mediocre team with little hope of becoming a real contender. Not in a million years, thanks.

          • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!


            That word leads to its Webster’s dictionary definition in

            I’d prefer proven products over potential & possibilities.

            Not in a million years- to each their own as Irving will not turn around this Raptors franchise in a million years- as is.

            Plus the Rap’s might not even be in a position to draft him making all this Irving speculation in the TDot null & void- time will tell.

            I want DWill!!

            • Tim W.

              In other words, you believe that most draft picks should be traded for proven veterans. That’s a nice way to ensure competitiveness, but you will never, ever be a contender doing that.

              Imagine if Orlando had decided to trade their first round pick instead of grab Dwight Howard? Or perhaps simply draft the more proven player, in Okafor?

              The last two years, it obviously would have been better for Colangelo to trade the 9th and 13th picks instead of risk drafting unproven players.

              Building a winner involves taking risks. Jerry West traded away a top ten center, in Vlade Divac, for an unproven high school player.

              If you don’t have faith in your drafting and scouting ability, then you’re in the wrong business.

              • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!!

                Did I say that? No I did not- recognize.

                All my opinions in this thread are Raptor basketball team related what I would do with their current roster/situation/particulars as I could give a flying damn about Orlando or any other NBA team unless they are dealing with the Rap’s in some form or fashion.

                How many 2010-11 rookies do you currently see playing major rotation roles on the current potential championship contenders:



                Celtics? (ABradley is glued to the bench)

                Spurs (Neal is a 26 year old vet via Europe pro ball)?






                Howard & Okafor were both unproven- Okafor played college ball okay but neither was a proven product in the

                Lakers weren’t a championship contending team when they traded Divac for Kobe- a certified basketball phenom at the time. Which wasn’t a bad move since they acquired Shaq to replace Divac that same off season- do the full math not the half.

                All the rookies playing regular rotation minutes are on non playoff teams (LAC, Wash, Sac, Tor, Det, Utah, GS, etc)- str8 up.

                Not to mention that 2 of the top 3 2010 NBA draft selectees Turner & Favors are still struggling to adjust to the NBA game.

                Turner is now getting regular rotation minutes due to team injuries not by the merit of his play.

                As well, Blake & Wall are very, very good rookie players but they are not helping their teams win more than they lose- maybe 2, 3, 4 years down the road butt the future is not a given either ie injuries, f/a, trades, etc.

                I don’t have faith in Jim Kelly or Gheradini or BC to evaluate talent or Jay to develop it in the TDot. Davis fell into their laps they didn’t out scout anyone in order to draft him. And the book is still out on DD (I like his individual progression so far in year 2).

                Solo’s 2 year guaranteed deal? I’m not a NBA scout but this kid whom I watched in college at FSU is a current NBDL project not a roster player- he’s worse than POB.

                • Tim W.

                  Well, I, as well as most Raptor fans I assume, would completely disagree with your strategy. Colangelo is a very good judge of talent in the first round of the draft. He’s been very successful drafting lottery picks in Toronto and in Phoenix.

                  It seems to me you want to play it safe, and that’s not what teams need to do to become successful. That’s what teams need to do to become mediocre.

                  The Raptors are just finishing year one of their rebuild. I really don’t know why you are so desperate to win now. If that’s the case, then Colangelo should trade every player on the roster under 25 for veterans. Otherwise, what’s the point? Teams don’t win with youth. They win with veterans.

                  Personally, I’m willing to have a little patience and have the chance to get a top tier PG, rather than a decent one who will help the team a little in the short term, but not give them what they really need.

                • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!


                  Rebuilding from exactly what?

                  The Rap’s haven’t made the playoffs ever since BC prematurely fired Sam.

                  Sorry, but I didn’t drink that rebuild kool aid- another BC sponsored pr spin on losing with a purpose.

                  Everything BC did in Phoenix is questionable if he was the one making the final call or was he the one getting his daddy’s nepotism credit thereof?

                  Take a look around the NBA at all the current NBA playoff & championship contending teams and count how many of them are veteran laden- even OKC went and got Perkins/Robinson.

                  Experience wins more often than not in the NBA- how many times since the NBA Draft Lottery was originated has a rookie(s) led their team to a NBA championship?

                  BC’s patience started 5 years ago & has ran its course- recognize game- you may like calling his shit- steak, but I call it SHIT as in Bull Chit!!!

                  Lawson or Felton >> Irving

                • Tim W.

                  Build, rebuild, it’s the same thing. You have to do the same thing. You can be patient and build through the draft until you get to a certain point when you have the right young pieces, and then you can add veteran talent to get to the next level, like Oklahoma did, or you can give up your draft picks and try and take a short cut. I’ve seen this happen too many times and it almost always adds up to mediocre teams that never contend.

                  Ted Stepien was the owner of the Cavs in the 80’s and used to trade draft picks all the time for veterans, and the NBA had to make a rule to stop him from doing it, because it killed the franchise.

                  And I don’t think anyone is expecting the Raptors to contend next season. EVen if they trade their draft pick for Felton or Lawson, so I fail to see your point.

                  If there’s one thing that any Raptor fan should have learned over the last 15 years is that simply making the playoffs isn’t good enough. You have to build a team that has a higher ceiling than 45-50 wins. Trading away high draft picks for veteran talent is going to help you build a decent team, but it’s not going to help you build a great team.

                  As for Colangelo, if you want to criticize him for him inability to build a good defensive team, or his inability to win a Championship in Phoenix, or his inability to win consistently in TOronto, then fine, but what he did in Phoenix is pretty much exactly what seem to want for the Raptors.

        • JustaGuy

          Gotta agree with Tim W., why on earth would you want Lawson or Felton? Again, championship teams have 2-3 cornerstone players. These players are typically acquired in the draft. Yes John Wall has had some struggles, but that is what young players go through. If we are ever going to be truly successful we need to get high ceiling players on board and allow them to develop. Your arguement for locking up DeRozan is that AB doesn’t play defense either – how does hitching our future to another guy who’s game is limited make things better (understand, I am not saying DeRozan is – in Statement’s comment he said don’t do it if DD doesn’t improve his defense – personally I think he has the tools to be a solid defender.You say do I want to suck again next year? The answer is no, but if thats what it takes to get to the top, I will live through it. The approach of upgrading your junk to a little bit better junk never delivers a championship calibre team, it delivers fighting for a playoff spot every year. Isn’t competing for a championhip what we want?

          • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

            Rookie pg’s in the NBA =’s L’s.

            You wanna another season like this one- just hand the reigns over to a rookie pg instead of a Lawson or Felton both who just abuse the Rap’s pg’s when matched up.

            I’m not looking for the Rap’s to be a championship team but a consistent playoff team (one has to make the palyoffs in order to get to the ‘ship).

            DD will play better D if coached that way & held accountable- he has the athletic ability to be a top notch defender- if he applies himself.

            • Go

              Who cares if it’s a rookie pg? They don’t stay rookies forever you know…

            • Tim W.

              “I’m not looking for the Rap’s to be a championship team but a consistent playoff team (one has to make the palyoffs in order to get to the ‘ship).”

              Therein lies the big difference between you and I. You’re happy with mediocrity. I’m not.

              • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

                Making the playoffs every year is mediorcity in your world?lol

                You have to make the playoffs in order to get to the championship- recognize it’s right in front of your eyes.

                Trying to put words in my mouth- no thank you as I can speak/post my thoughts for myself.

        • Statement

          I like Felton and Lawson but why not give it a go with potentially a very good player in Irving.

          The only area that I feel iffy about is acquiring a centre through free-agency (or trade). How many teams are willing to trade good defensive centres? Probably not that many which means we may have to draft one.

          • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

            That word “potential”.

            I don’t doubt that Irving will be a good NBA player- barring injuries, but Felton & Lawson are proven NBA pg products w/ playoff experience under their belts.

            Plus Rap’s might not even get a chance at Irving if they don’t get one of the 1st 2 picks as DWill & Irving will most likely be selected 1st or 2nd.

      • Steve

        What a Load of Crap !!!!

        How are you defensively better without AB ? What makes you think that DD will be a good defender !!! Come on, you guys are dreaming here.

        • Tim W.

          If you remove the team’s worst defender (or one of the worst), obviously you are going to have a positive effect on the defense. It’s basic cause and effect. No one is suggesting that the Raptors will automatically become a good defensive team. They still have too many poor defenders. But the fact is every bad defender you take away from the team has a positive effect on the defense.

          And DeRozan’s defense isn’t that bad. It’s still below average, but too many Raptor fans don’t seem to realize that the NBA has made it impossible to defend the perimeter one-on-one. DeRozan could certainly improve, and he has over the last two years, but last night is a perfect example. Iguodala is a very good defender yet DeRozan still was able to score 27 points.

          • Junior

            you can keep crying all you want about bargs and being all sensitive and emotional. but the rest of the basketball world and gm’s, scouts, pro leagues all over the planet would want him….you dumb bastards.

            • Fro

              They may want him, but they wouldn’t give jack shit for him.

              • Junior

                and you know this how? you dumb fuck. so many retard outspoken idiots in this forum. that’s the problem with dumb people. smart people know when to shut the fuck up and let professionals do their job. dumb people are overly opinionated and always throwing their idiotic 2 cents in because it makes them feel less retarded. nowadays morons have way 2 many rights. they make jackasses of themselves daily and were stuck with them. i liken the portion of raptor fans that hate bargnani and want to get rid of him for a bag of chips to guests on the maury povich show.

                • Statement

                  why do you exist?

  • Tim W.

    I apologize for trying to put words in your mouth. But to me, you’d be happy with the Atlanta Hawks. A team that consistently makes the playoffs. Personally, I’d want a higher ceiling than that. That takes risk. It means doing things like trading a top 10 center for a draft pick, or drafting a high school kid with massive potential instead of the proven college player with the lower ceiling. It also means drafting the PG with the potential to be a top 10 player instead of trading the pick for a decent veteran that will be lucky to make the All-Star team. It’s definitely a risk. Irving might not end up fulfilling his potential, but I’m pretty sure his worst case scenario is Felton Felton.

    • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

      No worries.

      The Hawks do have the pieces in place to make an off season move or two if they desire to do so but I would be happy if the Rap’s were in the Hawks current position instead of headed to the Lottery.

      BC has been here almost 5 full years thus players full of future
      potential only means more time, more losing. If it was year 1 of the BC era- okay, but it is year 5 of the TDot BC era.

      Lawson went 10 for 10 from 3pt range yesterday before missing on number 11. Felton played a solid game as well. I’ll be watching the Nugget’s (Law & Felt) closely playoff season.