rudygay
Raptors 91, Clippers 103 – Box

Raptors loss checklist:

Blown out early? Check. Down 18 points in 1st quarter, which ended 27-11 Clips.

Passable level of respectability restored by bench? Sure, down 29-22 at 9:22 of the 2nd quarter.

Bench players provided offensive spark when things couldn’t get much worse? Yes sir, Barbosa and Kleiza.

Opposition safely pushes lead to double digits and restores control by halftime? Done. 49-37 at halftime.

Blown out proper in third? Sure enough, 60-40 less than three minutes into the third. Quarter ends 76-58.

Fourth quarter officially garbage time. Check.

Blown out team makes final score appear less pitiful? Yup – 103-91.

Best Raptor on the right who shouldn’t really be that since others are supposed to be that. You betcha, Barbosa when it should be DeRozan.

Guy you totally didn’t expect to have a big game had a big game. Oh yeah, Mo Williams. Mo Williams – 26 points.

Here’s DeRozan’s shot distribution:

His finishing has always been weak and lacking power, what has made up for it in the past is that he’s gotten to the line and put some pressure on the defense. That was last year, though, this year the responsibilities are greater and it’s no longer good enough to get to the line 6-8 times and shoot poorly, certainly not with Bargnani out. It’s a tough ask to finish against some of the athleticism and leaping prowess presented by the Clippers in the paint, but man, getting your shot blocked five times? Isn’t this where your apparent aerial maneuverability should help you out?

I’m not talking about this game because there’s nothing to say. Casey can try yanking guys left and right, like he did with half the team yesterday, but it’s not going to make a difference. Guys know they’ll play because the overall talent level and depth on this team is so low, that yanking Amir Johnson, Ed Davis, or any other player for that matter does not make a lick of a difference.

Have to keep reminding myself that this is how this season was supposed to be. I get that we’ll get a high pick at the end of it, which is great, but the other “good” part about losing this season was that there was going to be some player development, and that hasn’t happened. Only Bargnani has shown improvement, and he was supposed to be the least likeliest to shine through this season. DeRozan, Davis, and Bayless (back for this game, looked OK despite not having any legs) haven’t flattered in the least. So I ask, is getting a high pick a good enough reward for going through this agony?

I don’t think so, it’s not sufficient because adding another pick is just making the team younger, and further from contention. That pick needed to be complemented with what was already here, and so far all we can safely say that we’ve added this season is a coach who values defense, and can communicate that message to a roster that’s deficient in quality. It’s kind of like that scene in Full Metal Jacket, where the drill sergeant’s yelling at the recruits, except that those guys turn out to be some pretty good soldiers, whereas it’s getting more and more difficult to see the current crop of the Raptors turn into the foundation for the future.

Read the Roll Call if you haven’t already.

136 Responses to “Raptors Loss Checklist vs Clippers”

  1. JHP

    Sorry to say but it’s looking a little bleak.  But of course it was suppose too.  Kind of like North Dallas Forty. One of the unwritten rules is teams try not to totally suck in front of the home fans, so the home stand next month should be interesting.  If the attendance drops to next to nothing it should be interesting to see what happens.  By the way has anyone even seen BC ?

    Reply
    • FAQ

      BC is scouting in Europe because he intends to bleach out the Ratpors for obvious reasons…. the US homie boys jes’ don’t wanna come to Canada to play b’ball… there’s jes’ no braggin’ rights and the TO jamie girls are weird.

      Young new multi-millionaires gotta have some fun and there’s no fun livin’ in smelly TO.

      Next season… Bargs, Jose, Val, ????

      Reply
          • sangaman

            FAQ is right just obscure.  Toronto is colder than Cleveland  for a young American and even if we get a few good seasons out of carter/bosh/etc. these guys will always abandon ship.    Need to assemble a good euro squad with a few canucks and the occasional veteran american..   

            Reply
            • Raps4Ever

              Both Carter and Bosh chose to stay on for 7 years, and only left when they didn’t feel the team was competitive enough.

              Reply
            • Buschfire

              I would have to disagree with that. First off Toronto is not smelly. Secondly, Toronto is a way better city to be in than Cleveland. Maybe if we had some talent we would make some noise in the US. but we suck so untill then we must “build”

              Reply
            • Lorenzo

              That’s a terrible idea.

               These theories that players don’t want to play in Toronto because it’s “too cold” or has “high taxes” are retarded and absolutely false.

               Do YOU ever hear about Knick players whining about how cold New York is? How about Boston? New Jersey? Do you think LeBron left Cleveland because it was cold???

               All these dumb assumptions are created by butthurt Raptor “fans” that try to think of excuses why their team has been fucking awful for 14 years (2 good ones in my opinion).

              Reply
  2. 2damkule

    agree that it’s pretty painful to watch these guys (big time kudos to anyone who can actually watch from start to finish; i PVR the games, and find myself watching in fast-forward for minutes of game time).

    only thing i’ll say is that ‘development’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘improvement.’  improvement is the destination, development is all the crap (repetition, practice, learning to compete at a pro level, consistency) that happens on the way there.  the idea is to instill good habits now, so that when more/better pieces are added, the basics are already taken care of.  yes, i fully understand that adding two more young players to the mix won’t (necessarily) help them win (at least right away), but you have to keep in mind that this season isn’t just about sucking & getting a high lotto pick, and it’s not just about development…it’s about weeding out the players who don’t figure to be part of the core going forward.  if that means that ed, amir, DD et al are assets with which to deal, then so be it. 

    but we really need to put our talk of patience into practice.

    Reply
    • raptorboy

      Well said. Many fans seem to think that defensive habits/skills are learned overnight. A full season of practicing proper defense is only the beginning. We have not even started on the offense yet so worrying about the team’s play at this point is futile. It’s a process which has just begun. I think we are right on track with the team part but Demar’s and Ed’s play has been concerning. I really don’t see these guys as being core pieces for the future, but hopefully I’m wrong.

      Reply
    • FAQ

      The  only NBA-ready  player who came as a rookie was Jose… all the others had to “learn” how to play NBA b’ball.  Pathetic ….eh?!

      Reply
      • 2damkule

        ‘pathetic?’  not really no…pretty par for the course in the NBA, actually.  very few rookies come into the L ‘NBA-ready’ (whatever that means).  and even those that do come in & take the L by storm & appear to be instant superstars, often come crashing down shortly thereafter.  it’s the ones who can get back up & prove themselves that make it…it’s what makes what’s happening to tyreke, wall & jennings (among others) so interesting: they have the physical skill, but do they have the mental make-up (i believe mean gene called it ‘intestinal fortitude’) to come back from being down?

        Reply
        • FAQ

          NBA-ready means you have the body and the brains to play decent b’ball.  Unfortunately most don’t have the body and minimal brains to play at the NBA level.

           It’s like throwing children into battle… and paying them Million$$$ for showing up and trying their best…. a real crapshoot, and the Ratpors have had their share of ‘crap’….!!!!

          Reply
  3. embarassed fan

    DD: Muhahahaha haha ha hahahahaha Muhahahahaha the new ALLSTAR! Muahahahaha hahaha
    I love this guy! Muahahahahahahahahaha

    Reply
  4. Valit

    I totally agree with the pick vs. the level of quality in this roster. Yes, we need a high pick, but it seems we also  need to add at least 4-5 good players. Can it be done in 1-2 years?..I dont know…It seems that we might be for some dicey years ahead of us. I would be curious to see the level of interest for this team in Toronto after 1-2 years( specially if TFC is improving)

    Reply
    • FAQ

      No, not in Toronto…. but if you moved the franchise to Buffalo, all the US homie boys would be flocking there to be part of the rebuilding  in their own country… believe it.

      Reply
      • Dan

        You’re a joke man. Did Bosh or Vince leave at their first opportunity, or did they resign in Toronto? I forget – you seem to know everything, so remind me. 

        Reply
        • FAQ

          But recent history does not back up your vince and bosh history.  Look at the new batch of pathetic U.S. homie FA’s …. they are desperate failures looking for a payday anywhere.

          Ratpors and TO are rapidly going downhill now, and if BC lucks out and wins the first draft pick, you can bet if it’s a homie he will reject TO and ask to be traded. 

          As for DD, it’s apparent he’s not happy playing for TO and wants to be traded back to homie-land… and that’s why he’s tanking it.

          Wake up, morons…. the truth is staring you in the face and you continue to delude and fantacize because of your tribal honking feeeelings…!!!

          Reply
      • Buschfire

        LOL to Buffalo? you’ve got to be kidding me… no FA would want to come to a team with no pieces, if we have the talent and skill the players will come, and or re sign. None the less Toronto R men are not going anywhere anytime soon, we have a great market here in Toronot and this is Mr. Stern’s  start to world expansion! if Toronto leaves that will say a lot about the “world game” of basketball….

        Reply
  5. Karteth

    2 Lotto picks, cap space to sign somebody, and enough front court assets to make a roster balancing trade next summer.  Won’t make us a winner right away, but I think we’ll have a better idea next summer of what road we are taking back to respectability.

    I have no interest in getting younger, but we are not anywhere near the minimum talent level right now that it would take to eventually win a play-off series.

    Reply
    • FAQ

      When Val comes from Lithuania next season, all the Ratpor problems will be solved and it’s the playoffs, baby …. believe it.

      Reply
  6. Milesboyer

    I’m sure there’s some political prisoner somewhere in the world being forced to watch Raptor games as a method of torture.

    Reply
  7. Theswirsky

    Nothing more exciting to watch than a slow paced offense with little to no offensive talent.
     
    After years of trying to build a running team, which wasn’t suceeding partially because the two so called best players on the floor wouldn’t (Bosh) and couldn’t (Bargnani) run, Colangelo decided to throw the square peg (Casey) into the round hole and slow things down.
     
    So Bargnani gets back and what happens?  The Raps lose by a few less points?  It looks better and fans will be happier?  And as Jack and Devlin so hilariously pointed out last night; may be able to compete for a playoff spot.  BC must pay these guys every time they say something like that.  I dislike them as much as the next guy but they both have enough experience to realize how little chance there is of that happening and how dangerous it would be to the franchise.  Rod Black?  Sure the guy does figure skating.  Leo?  Ofcourse he’s an idiot.  But Jack… always thought he was better than that.  Guess someone needs to instill misplaced confidence in he who wears the biggest collars.
     
    But anyways… this team isn’t rebuilding yet because they are not yet done tearing down. 

    Casey has done wonders for Bargnani so far.  Got him to try and the slow D + regular zone has helped hide his deficiences.  Most importantly he has, to date anyways, been aggressive and taking the ball to the hole.  Excellent.  Unfortunately the coming draft is filled with PFs (apparently the position he plays) and switching him back to C is unlikely (anyone remember the washington game where he defended the C and Washington conquered teh paint like it was a middle eastern country?).  Moreover when this team does get its franchise player (which may or may not be this year) rarely do any of the old guard stick around. 

    Derozan.  Last night was another example of how ineffective he is in the slow offense.
     
    Amir is not a C.  Perhaps no big runs the open court better than him.  Slow game while being banged by guys 3-4 inches taller and 30lbs+ heavier won’t take long to wear a guy out.  Mentally and physically.
     
    Ed?  Who knows… maybe he’s playing a Vince seeking out of the cold north.  Maybe he’s more suited to running.  Either way he is simply invisible constantly. 
     
    Barbossa.  He runs and fast.  Expiring contract + 6th man role = asset?
     
    Kleiza.  Are NBA teams allowed to trade with the Lithuanian national team? 
     
    JJ – He is more out of control when trying to play under control.  Would you rather have a bull in a china shop or in an open field?
     
    I know why this team is playing slow.  But I also know it doesn’t have the personel to do so.  Yes losing this year is a means to a greater end.  Years from now we’ll forget about this like we have Jalen Rose.  But how many years are we waiting?

    This isn’t just a Val + 1st round pick = ready to rock team next year.  I hate to pay attention to the ‘gotstogo’ guy… but he said something the other day I agree with.  This isn’t just a matter of cutting the hedges, they need to pull all the roots out to get ready to plant the garden.
     
     

    Reply
    • Nilanka15

      When/if Calderon is amnestied, we’ll have some cap space to help improve the roster.

      And for those who prefer to keep Calderon around to help the younger players develop….it hasn’t made an ounce of difference so far.  I personally think the $10 million in cap space he frees up is worth WAY more to this team moving forward than his mentoring abilities on players who may, or may not be part of the future.

      Reply
      • Theswirsky

        Just off hand I would expect (hope?) Jose’s expiring contract to hold more value next year than being amnestied would. 

        But besides that, Toronto may be able to sign some useful role players with cap space, fill a need here or there… but at this point in time its not bringing in what this team really needs.

        Right now I’d rather see this team take on salary if it nets them a lottery pick (like Cleveland did last year).  Just examples, but taking on  Blatche + lottery pick for Andrea.  Or Travis Outlaw + pick for Demar (not sure if Nets actually have a pick this year, but just an example anyways) While cap space will most definetely be necessary in a few years, I think this team is a ways away from needing what cap space will bring them.

          

        Reply
        • sleepz

          +1

          Lottery picks should be the goal in every move Colangelo makes over the next 1-2 years, regardless of the player.

          I would say the only player that shouldn’t be part of any immediate trade talk is JV and thats because we haven’t seen him on an NBA court yet.

          Reply
            • 2damkule

              yeah, but you still have him, eating $30-something mil for the next 3 or 4 years, and you can’t amnesty him…so you buy him out, but can’t clear the cap space.  is it worth it?  normally i’d say sure, but the raps will already be adding two young guys with their own picks from this year.  and – as much of a basher of AB as i’ve been over the years – if he (AB) is THIS guy, then realistically, how much better is another prospect?  while i’m all for building/rebuilding, at some point, you do have to stop acquiring for the future & start to build a team for the now.

              i like the idea, just not the exchange of players…

              Reply
              • sleepz

                I’m not as much up on the CBA as I should be buy why can’t they amnesty him (Blatche)?

                Reply
                • Nilanka15

                  You can’t amnesty players following trades.  You can only amnesty players who were on your roster as of July 1, 2011.

              • mountio

                Im with you. I think where swirsk and i fundamentally disagree is whether this will take 3-5 years (his view) or 2 years (my view). If you are in the 4-5 year camp, then trading anything we have and taking on brutal contracts for lottery picks (which btw, Im still not sure are available, even if you are willing to take on a Blatche, for example .. whats in that trade for the Wiz? Are they any closer to a rebuild than we are?)
                To me, you add Val, you add a top 5 pick .. put them with our current players and a decent FA .. and I think you are on your way. One more shit season perhaps (but if so, another draft pick) and then you make your run. Do you need a litlte luck along the way? Sure .. you need both Val and the top 5 pick to be LEGIT. If they arent .. you are in trouble. But . you gotta give it a go I think …

                Reply
                • Theswirsky

                  just to be clear on the trades.  They were just examples… not must do, will happen, etc.  I highly doubt washington will be trading their likely top 5 pick or so.

                  But yes I do agree we disagree on the timeline :) 

    • sleepz

      One of the better posts I’ve read recently.

      I almost feel bad for Andrea (almost,lol) because the assumptions I’ve been reading by many fans is that when he comes back they will be ‘back on track’. Indeed they will….the same track they’ve been on the last 6 games he’s been out.

      The real question remains….Is Colangelo the man to rebuild this team the way it needs to be done to ensure future success??? Another high pick, JV and money (who is he going to spend this money on I wonder considering his track record?) is not taking this team to extraordinary heights immediately. It will take more years of losses and accumulating talent

      I have major doubts regarding BC’s abilities to build a team that has long term success and sustainability.

      Reply
  8. brother

    I agree Arse, the lack of development of these young players is shocking; but if they were reduced to role players and given a team-based offense in which they had more minor roles, could they contribute? Lebron made Daniel Gibson famous. Jordan made John Paxson and Steve Kerr super athletes. Does a very good raptor make these guys contributors going forward? Are we expecting too much from them? i.e. Derozan ain’t Kobe, so was believing that he could put up 25 points against the same defenses that Kobe sees reasonable?

    I think we can all agree that Derozan cannot now and never will be considered a first option on offense for any NBA team. I believe the question now is, could he ever be considered a viable third option? i.e. if a Bargnani returns and if we ever get a small forward or center who can be considered the second option within an offense, can Derozan, with the reduced defensive focus associated with his third option status, get enough room to get his shot off?Can Derozan contribute in 2012/2013 if his offensive burden were reduced? Would he be more efficient?

    I have my doubts.

    Reply
    • sleepz

      Bargnani is at best a 3rd option on a really good team. DeRozan is at best a 4th or 5th option on a really good team, imho.

      Reply
      • Pizzaman

        I disagree as Bargs is one or two on a really good team, and would be on many of the better teams today. DD does not make the starting line up on any of the really good teams today, and at best he would be 7th or 8th man.

        Reply
        • sleepz

          Bargs is a 1 or 2 on a really good team?

          Which good team in the league would he be a 1 or 2? Miami? no. OKC, no. Chicago? no. Lakers? no. Clips? no. Portland? no. Utah? no. Atlanta? no.

          I think you might be overestimating his value. 10 improved games doesn’t make a career (yet) and I’m not sure which good teams he would be 1st or  2nd scoring option let alone a 3rd option.

          Reply
          • Pizzaman

            I guess it depends on a couple of key things;
            1) your definition of a really good team, as I see that definition covering all teams in the top 50% of playoff teams versus seeing the ones you mention as actual championship contenders
            2) I think you’re assuming Bargs would just be added to the teams you mention as is, which would not happen. An example is that if Bargnani replaced Gasol he would be the number two option on the lakers. Even on the Bulls he could easily replace and better Boozer’s offense.
            On Miami in replacement of Bosh he would be a much better third option on offence spreading the floor for the two real stars.
            On most playoff teams he would be number one or two but I don’t expect you to agree with that.
            Your opinion

            Reply
            • sleepz

              I consider a really good team to be good top teams that have realistic shots at going to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

              I guess that’s not a clear marker of the teams I’m including but I can’t see that in a shortened season that all teams in the top 50% now, will be there at the end of the year.

              I also didn’t mean Bargnani replacing someone and then by default becoming the next option. Even with some of those examples, i.e. Lakers- he would still be behind Bynum as Bynum is a better player. He might be able to replace Boozer in CHicago but he doesn’t play on the blocks (which is what Boozer gives them) and that would still put him behind Deng. 

              I expected you to put him as a better option than Bosh but Miami has shooters that spread the floor already. They need more scoring in the paint and the fact remains Bosh is still a better player than Andrea, is far more consistent, accomplished and he can produce in playoff games.

              Andrea can score don’t get me wrong, but if you were to take away the 10 games he’s played thus far in 2012 I would rank him as a 4th best option on most good (contending) teams.

              Reply
              • Pizzaman

                When you said option I’m assuming you meant offense which Bargnani is a better offensive weapon than Bynum. I love Bynum and his all around game is better, but his offense is not as versatile.

                Reply
                • sleepz

                  Agreed (Bargs more versatile than Bynum), but if you had your choice of taking a big that scores on the perimeter or one who scores on the blocks which would you take?

                • Pizzaman

                  Like I said I would take Bynum over Bargnani to build a team around for sure, other than I would still be worried about his knees long term if I was building a team around him. I’m suggesting that today Kobe having Bargnani with him instead of Gasol or Bynum would improve their offense. I’m not suggesting bargnani is better than Gasol either, only that Gasol’s game and Bynums are not that different and both can play center.

          • Pizzaman

            another thing since I’ve explained how Bargs could fit as a first, second, or third option.Can you explain in the same terms you outlined on who the really good teams are how DD would be a 4th or 5th option on these same teams and who exactly would he replace to do so

            Reply
            • sleepz

              Oh, on the really good teams Derozan would defintely be no higher than 5-6th option imho.

              Reply
            • sleepz

              In fact in many of those other instances, Miami (of course), OKC, Lakers (of course), Chicago, etc he would be coming off the bench no doubt.
               

              Reply
              • Pizzaman

                Thanks for clarifying because I was starting to think you thought too much of Derozan’s game. I am hoping that Derozan can blossom into the 3rd or fourth option on the Raptors when our team is better but I’m just not sure of his talent level.

                Reply
        • Raps

          your a dumbass as usual. Bargnani is a 2nd or 3rd option no more. DeRozan is a 3rd option on a contender, not now but IMO he’ll be better than bargnani by 26.

          Reply
          • Pizzaman

            shows how much you dislike bargnani to assume he will be better than Bargnani ever, so I guess he will learn to shoot, handle the ball, pass and defnd all at a huge improvement to what he has today. DD will be able to dunk more impressively than Bargnani but that’s the only skill he will ever be better at if you call a skill any street baller has a skill.

            Reply
      • 511

        Man, for a guy who knows his hoops, your prejudice against Bargnani seems kind of ridiculous at times. 

        Reply
          • sleepz

            Nothing to pounce on. I give him credit when he plays well.

            At least I am respectful and objective enough to keep my opinions on a player based on basketball skills alone. 

            Never personal for me when it comes to a player, it’s all about their game.

            And why do you even care what I think of Bargnani as a player anyways? As long as you see him the way you do thats all that should matter to you, no?

            You would think that some of your guys are his PR guy or agent. Any player in the league can have their ‘game’ lauded or criticized. As a player you are going to have critics not matter who you are that may not like the way you ball. Even Lebron James have people who watch him play and criticize him believe it or not. Why would you think Andrea Bargnani is exempt from this? 

            Reply
            • Pizzaman

              I agree that you have always kept your posts respectful and objective for which I commend you as it’s not always possible here with the number of morons posting continuously. I also like your basketball knowledge , but you as I are not right most of the time, and you also make some statements as we all do from time to time that are hard to support. For instance DD being a 4th or 5th option on the same contenders you mention above. Tell me exactly who DD would replace on their starting units to do so.

              Reply
              • sleepz

                I tried to clarify my statements above and remember I would NEVER say that DeRozan is above Bargs because thats just not the truth at this point in their careers. Even a novice fan would have to be able to recognize this cuz it’s obvious. If Andrea can continue to play the way he is I think saying he’s 3rd option on a good team is not disrespectful, in fact if he can improve further (which is possible as well) he could move up to 2nd in my books. 1st option on a really good team requires years of consistency imho.

                Not impossible for him, but definitely not there yet.

                Reply
        • Matt

          You should have been around last year. These bashers had it all and were all over this board. However, this year, they have to crawl into their RAT Hole and just wait for one bad game to stick their heads out and start again. We all know who they are. Some of them are too embarrassed to post now though.

          Reply
        • sleepz

          No prejudice at all 511.

          If you read my most recent post I clearly break down what I call a good (or contending team). I said that based on what i have seen from him thus far he would definitely be a 3rd scoring option on one of those teams. If I went with his previous performances in pat years I would say 4th becuase eh wasn’t as efficienct as he is now.   

          I don’t think that’s being prejudiced or biased at all. I just think for some posters if you don’t agree with their opinions on a player it’s ‘hating’ when for me it’s all about basketball, skill, stats and heart. 

          Reply
      • Matt

        AB is getting paid like the best 3rd option in a good team which is around 10 million a year. So keep your expectation on that level.

        Reply
        • Pizzaman

          another reason he’s a definite keeper unless someone wants to give you some amazing trade value.

          Reply
          • sleepz

            Agreed on that point or as some posters have been recognizing, if it can get you a better player moving forward that is or can be a star.

            Reply
            • Pizzaman

              agreed but some here are suggesting trading Bargnani for a lottery pick and there are no guarantees that lottery picks will ever be close to Bargnani’s worth let alone better. 
              If for instance the Laker’s offered up Bynum that would be something they need to consider and the only way you say no is because of his knees.
              There are others that would obviously be worth it, a high level point guard, a very good shooting guard but again only game changers.

              Reply
        • sleepz

          Not about money to me my friend.

          I’ll keep my expectations on the level of basketball skill and influence on the game.

          Reply
  9. Sheptor

    The Starting line-up needs to change. I’m glad all you DD fanboys from last year are starting to change your tune and start seeing what I’ve seen from the start. DeRozan should have stayed in college and got a jumper before trying to learn one against NBA defences but that’s besides the point. The kid needs to be benched in favor of Barbosa plain and simple. You don’t think Barbosa is tired of being called a “spark” off the becnh his whole damn life? He’s the one who has to crawl us back into games every night. Lineup when Bargs comes back should be…

    Pg – Jose, Bayless, Forbes…………………………..Carter
    Sg – Barbosa, Derozan, Forbes
    Sf – Kleiza, Johnson,………………..Butler
    Pf – Bargnani, Ed Davis,
    C – A.Johnson, Gray

    Time to hold this kid DeRozan responsible. If Bargs was playing this badly and DeRozan was hurt nobody would be cutting Bargs slack by saying “yeah but DeRozan is missing” The guy can’t shoot, has no confidence, can’t tweet, and can barely do an interview. Put him against the other teams 2nd unit until the jumper is falling and his confidence is up. He might have a chance to be the best player on the floor in those situations. Instead of the “best” player on OUR team on the floor.

    Reply
    • Pizzaman

      agreed…I like the lineup better above and said almost the same thing somewhere else

      Reply
    • Theswirsky

      oh the irony.

      Shouldn’t this team just give him 3 more years, change the coach atleast one more time, make sure said coach doesn’t hold him accountable, force feed him the ball, blame the #1 guy for holding him back, and then when the #1 guy isn’t there talk about how he needs someone else to help him open up the floor,  while blaming the rest of the team for his short comings?

      Honestly I don’t disagree with you.  I’d have no problems with this team benching Derozan.  I’m not sure the talent level on this team results in any significant change to the team, but even if only as an example to the rest that decision making and toughness is important.  That being a liability won’t be tolerated.  Yet for years………….

      Reply
      • Matt

        Get Over yourself Theswirsky 
        You have been bashing AB for last 5 years and the guy made a fool of you and your pals, Tim W and … by playing great so far :) :) Now, you have to come here and say BS like this , shouldn’t we give him this and that …

        Reply
    • Nilanka15

      I agree that DeRozan needs a wakeup call, and inserting Barbosa in the starting lineup should only be done for that reason (for 3-5 games at most).

      But I don’t think it’s wise to maintain Barbosa as a starter for the rest of the season.  He’s not part of this team’s future.  On the other hand, DeRozan was a lottery pick, and so, it’s in the team’s best interest to get DeRozan out of his funk as soon as possible.

      Whether he’s helping this team win games one day, or he’s increasing his value as trade bait, DeRozan needs minutes over Barbosa.

      Reply
      • Brian B

        Plus, didn’t I hear/read somewhere that Barbosa is a player whose production goes down as minutes increase? So if he is starting, still need a viable bench presence.

        On the defensive end, Barbosa will get exposed if required to play heavy minutes against first string wings – he still prefers to gamble for steals rather than fight through screens, and leaves his feet (faked right out). Fine to hide when in a zone, but bad man to man.

        Reply
      • FAQ

        How many more “minutes/years” does DD need before he finishes his “development”???

        Looks like he’s “regressing” rather badly now.

        (Wouldn’t it be nice to find rookies who know how to play b’ball and don’t need years of development?!)

        Reply
          • FAQ

            … but only one out of 5 pan out … and at that rate you would need 25 years to build a veteran squad … see the problemo …???

            Reply
          • mountio

            that is giving 20 pt scorers who are objectively voted as the 2nd best player in their draft year time to continue improving when they have already shown considerable potential .. ya, giving those guys time is standard protocol.
            Giving guys who dont perform the same luxury .. we will see …

            Reply
            • mountio

              We really have to stop this 5 year nonesense. AB was a very good player, so far DD and Ed are not.
              As mentioned, AB was 2nd in his rookie class (not my opinion, not BC’s, the opinion of voters across the league).
              DD got ZERO votes.
              Ed got ZERO votes.
              If you had a similar measure in subsequent seasons, the same would be true.
              Bottom line, AB is WAY better than those two, thus he’s still with the team and still getting lots of minutes. Its that simple …

              Reply
              • Theswirsky

                The entire point of the 5 year ‘wait’ was to show the hypocracy in people who continually said Bargnani needed more time but then turn around and don’t for others.

                In fact if there was any time to ‘wait’ for a guy during a rebuild is the best time to do it.  Personally I think he should be moved if an opportunity comes up but still….

                As for Bargnani being the 2nd best in his draft class I think Rondo, Gay, Roy, Aldridge and Milsap may say otherwise.  And that 1 vote that wasn’t given to Roy but to Bargnani was by Chuck Swirsky who, as much as I love the guy, had zero objectivity in it.

                Reply
                • CaseyDaMan

                  He said “rookie class” obviously referring to ROY voting. That 1 dumb vote had no impact on him getting 2nd place in ROY.

                • mountio

                  The point is, that you “wait” for guys who have shown the ability to be good players, at the NBA level and 2nd in ROY of the year voting (has nothing to to with 1 first place vote) shows that a guy can compete at this level and is pretty damn good .. thus is worth “waiting” for.
                  DD and Ed have shown nothing of the sort. Thats why the cases are apples and oranges.
                  People act like AB was a total stiff that the franchise magically waited for because BC had a point to prove. Thats just patently false. Ill admit he was a flawed palyer, but a player who showed a lot of potential. Thus, we waited, and thus its paying off ..

                • CaseyDaMan

                  BTW, ppl aren’t continually saying “don’t for others”. Baiters who don’t have any direct criticism to work with these days, are continually saying well then, we have to give DD and ED 5 years too. Precious, how this kind of bs gets twisted around to hypocracy.

                • Jeff

                  TheSwirsky is known around here to be a class 1 AB Bashers for years. His pals like Tim W. Are too embarrassed to show up here but TheSwirsky comes and can not help it but to use the 5 year BS here. It is Ok, Pal, the big Italian made a fool out of you so we give you a break. We will give DD and ED and Bayless 5 year as well to make you Happy.

    • SR

      I hate it when people post lineups.  We watch the friggin’ team, we know who’s on the roster.

      My ideal lineup after a good draft and a couple nice trades:

      Pg – Chris Paul, Derek Rose
      Sg – Dwayne Wade, Kobe Bryant
      Sf – Lebron James, Jamario Moon
      Pf – Andrea Bargnani, Solomon Alabi
      C – Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum

      See how I just wasted everybody’s time there?

      Reply
      • Sheptor

        OKay? So how am I supposed to go over what I think the Starting line-up should be/ rotation if I don’t type it? That was my point, the line-up nneeds to change and I gave what my preferred change would be and reasons why. I don’t think I wasted anyone’s time…idiot.

        Reply
        • SR

          “Barbosa and Kleiza should be starting.” There. Was that so hard? It would even make you sound like a normal person.

          My ideal lineup would be:

          Pg – Magic
          Sg – MJ
          Sf – Larry Bird
          Pf – Tim Duncan
          C – Greg Ostertag

          Reply
  10. j bean

    Seems like our opinions of players change around here almost every game. Go back and read the comments after the wins and you would think Jose was a late blossoming Steve Nash. 

    Reply
  11. Matt

    This system is all about evaluating the players and see who belongs to our future plans. So far, players such as Bayless, DD, Ed and even James Johnson have shown little improvement from last year or have shown us that they can NOT work in the new System.

    By the end of the season, we can see who really belongs.
    By the way, Do you all remember the poll here when Bayless got to Toronto ? 
    How more than half of RR thought he was a starting PG material in this league and almost 30% thought he is an ALL-STAR ?

    Damn, he proved all those fans WRONG :)

    Reply
      • Matt

        Nilanka , it is getting old for you AB bashers trying the sad excuse of 5 season for all players. Obviously, you know that you can not do this for every single player. So Deal with it :) DD is not going to get 5 years and neither is Bayless or Ed or James Johnson :) 

        Reply
        • Nilanka15

          It’s a “sad excuse” because you said so?  Understood.

          AB’s offensive talent justified the LOOOOONG waiting period.  Bayless has offensive talent too, doesn’t he? 

          For the record, I don’t like Bayless game, and I don’t think he has a high ceiling.  I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy Bargnani fans have in regards to a proper development time.

          Reply
          • Raps4Ever

            Sad excuse not because he said so, but his opinion because he figures you’re smart enough to know the obvious that you cannot do this for every player.

            Apples and oranges comparing offensive talent of Bayless and AB. What Bayless has comes out of college, by the numbers, every year, and hasn’t expanded one iota. What AB started with is rare and worth a longer wait in most peoples opinions.

            Reply
          • hotfuzz

            I agree with you, AB fans can get pretty hypocritical especially regarding him realizing his full potential.

            But I ask you this Nilanka, do we really want to repeat the mistake of waiting 5 years for another player to realize his potential?
            Whether waiting for bargnani to improve his game for this long was a mistake or not, is debatable. But do we really want repeat and wait for DD or Bayless for 5 years? 

            I just want what’s best for the organization, and i don’t think waiting 5 years on Bayless or DD is best for our organization. 

            Again, I am not advocating for AB here, but what’s happened has happened, let’s move on and make the right moves from here on.

            Reply
  12. Nilanka15

    As painful as it is to be a Raptors right now, it’s even worse to be a Knicks fan.

    You know your team’s in trouble when you’re $14 million over the cap, and you’ve got $50 million tied down to 3 players (over the next 4 years) who aren’t really that good, lol.

    Reply
    • sleepz

      The team is assembled wrong imo. They need a true point to distribute shots.

      Not sure if Baron is the guy but right now they don’t play a good style (Amare’s knees won’t last) and their defensive effort is almost non-existent.

      I loved watching Gallo and company show them how to play a real open floor style of basketball on Saturday.

      Reply
    • Matt

      yes , there was. Over 50% here thought he is a Starting PG in this league while almost 30% thought he is an ALL-STAR in East :)

      Reply
  13. FAQ

    Wouldn’t it be great if BC could trade the Raps first round picks to Minnie for Riiiiicky Ruuuuubio …. that would help bleach out the team…..

    Reply
    • Matt

      Thy will NOT give us Ricky Rubio for just a first round pick. I don’t think you can get Ricky Rubio even if you offer them our 1st round pick+ DD+ Ed Davis.

      Reply
      • FAQ

        Minnie might go for your trade… if Ed Davis changed his pussy name to … Ima Killah … or something ….ya think??!!

        Reply
      • Pizzaman

        you’re right they would not make that trade for DD, Ed and our first round pick. Why would they trade Rubio who is very likely to be a bonafide star in this league for a draft pick with no guarantees, and a SG without basic fundamental basketball skills, plus a PF with no physical presence or offensive ability.

        Reply
        • FAQ

          Maybe Riiiicky prefers to play in TO, where he can be reunited with his spanish bro Jose …. and get out of cold and strange Minnesota filled with homies he can’t understand … ya think???

          Lots of dagoes in Toronto ….!!!!

          Reply
          • Pizzaman

            I don’t think Rubio would mind playing in Toronto, even though he’s not a dago as you so rudely put it.
            The issue is more around who could we possibly give up that would make Minny want to trade Rubio. Quite frankly the only talent they would consider is Bargnani but they already have an all star PF

            Reply
  14. sleepz

    Completely off topic but I am dysfunctional when trying to create a topic in the forums.

    If anyone does start a college ball forum talking about prospects, possible raptor picks, links etc I would most definitely like to be a part of it.

    It might be a bit early for it, but no time like the present.

    Btw, Drummond was solid on Saturday, Lamb was AWESOME, and A.Davis is definitely improving his stroke.
    Not sure where Kidd-Gilchrist will play in the pros but his motor keeps on going.

    Reply
  15. cesco

    I am wondering after reading comments about where Andrea would be as a scoring option on a contender why he cannot be considered first or second scoring option on following contenders and their current two top scorers .
    Orlando has : DH 20.2 , Anderson 17.5
    Indiana       : Granger 16.1 , Hibbert 13.9
    Philadelphia : L Williams 15.5 , Holiday 14.6
    Atlanta       : JJ 18.6 , J Smith 16.2
    Denver       : Gallinari 17.4 , Lawson 16.0

    You will notice that NONE of these contenders have a 22+ points scorer like Andrea . Notice also that we are talking about THIS YEAR scoring and efficiency of these players . Also a player like Gallo can play SF so he could play with Andrea ( I would love that) .

    Reply
    • CaseyDaMan

      I love your support for the Raps, but comparing stats of players on different teams, with different players and styles surrounding them, is never worth much to either support or counter a player.

      Reply
      • cesco

        But why is there a continuous discussion by someone or another that Andrea could only be a third option on a contending team at best . Andrea in a contending team will be one of several options thus he will not receive double coverage like he was receiving last year and this year and should be able to score 20+ points and thus be a first or second scoring option ( for those contending teams I showed above ) . Agree or disagree ? .

        Reply
        • CaseyDaMan

          Oh I agree that he’d still be a very significant player on contending teams, 2nd option on many, but just saying you can’t use stats from different situations to prove the point, no more than you can say player A on team X is better than player B on team Y because of stats.

          Reply
          • cesco

            Agree , but people keep opining about what Andrea could do on a contending team and you need stats to provide food for thought .

            Reply
      • Nilanka15

        Nobody cares what Bargnani would do on another team.  It’s the same indifference shown for all ex-Raptors.

        Reply
  16. AB7.38pt.on.CB4

    I remember in this blog magnify Joakim Noah (despite being euro) and whining about AB.

    Noah average reb 7.2 for the year so far. Take that. Oh, ya, but he hustle, he dives, he is a presence, bla bla bla. Fact is Noah reb 7.2

    So Bargnani for all expert (to clarify coaches, not blogger or hollingers) has always (always since year one) been a
    problem to defend ‘cos his skills and size and shoot. 

    Bargnani  is a mobile 7’1 who can put the ball on the floor and either drive or shoot from range. 

    In the modern NBA where spacing is bread and butter such player paired with a strong post up player become unstoppable.

    Work on it and make peace with yourself

    Reply
    • Truthkiller

      WOW!!! Your comparing Joahkim Noah to andrea bargnani, forget about his stats which I will share in a bit. This is more than enough to tell you off 

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BkOW7OllBE 

      Never in my lifetime will we see that kind of hustle and play by Primo Pastaman.

      Now his stats, this guy averaged in the last 2 seasons 50% shooting, over 10pts and 10 rebounds, 1 and half blocks a game and to fucking compare him to Andrea Bargnani. You truly are a fanboy.

      And actually it’s 8.4 rebounds, get your facts right. Probably would’ve been more he’s been injured.

      http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3224/joakim-noah 

      Reply
  17. AB7.38pt.on.CB4

    I just forgot. For the draftexpress lover.

    Andrea Bargnani NBA Draft Scouting Report
    April 24, 2005
    Strengths
    Bargnani is a prototypical player in terms of the physical attributes and raw skills that scouts salivate over in their search for the next young European (star?) big man.

    First his physical attributes. He’s tall (easily a 7 footer), and a very fluid athlete that runs the court very well, has a very nice first step and is a decent leaper. He’ll never be a power player in the paint, but his frame suggests that his bulk will be adequate for the power forward position in the future.
    2005 PF in the future anyone ?

    So he played SF and C just to please you and RuPaul 

    Reply
  18. AB7.38pt.on.CB4

    ndrea Bargnani NBA Draft Scouting ReportApril 24, 2005StrengthsBargnani is a prototypical player in terms of the physical attributes and raw skills that scouts salivate over in their search for the next young European (star?) big man.First his physical attributes. He’s tall (easily a 7 footer), and a very fluid athlete that runs the court very well, has a very nice first step and is a decent leaper. He’ll never be a power player in the paint, but his frame suggests that his bulk will be adequate for the power forward position in the future.PF Since 2005 ? LOL

    Reply
  19. Emichael

    Derozan is a friggen young guy (what is he like 23 years old or something?), the Raptors are gonna suck if he is in the starting line up or not. He needs minutes. Bargs is playing well and good for him. As for the commenter who keeps saying NBA players don’t wanna play for Toronto because it smells and is cold…um…okaaaaaay…how about they don’t want to play for Toronto because the organization hasn’t had much success? The way Colangelo is doing it right now…i.e. playing the kids and building the team through the draft is the right way to do it. Everyone needs to stop analyzing this year so intently, this team isn’t developed yet –> stop expecting them to be competitive.You get worse before you get better, or else you are stuck in mediocrity.

    Reply

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