So, Andrea Bargnani is done for the year. You already know this and you’re likely not bothered much by it. These games don’t matter, there’s no sense risking further damage and it’s a good chance for other guys to show what they can do.

The only downside: this was supposed to be the time for Bargnani to show what he can do. Or, rather, show that what we’ve seen him do is sustainable. On both ends, we saw him play far and away the best basketball of his career before the strained calf from hell. I can’t link to the Hardwood Paroxysm post I wrote 10 days ago because some miserable people decided to hack the site, but at the time I argued that this closing stretch was important for Bargnani. Now that’s gone, so the debate will remain:

Were those first 13 games representative of Bargnani?

It’s important to note that the Raptors believe they are. Click the link at the top of this post to see quotes from Dwane Casey on the matter — he’s going to demand that Bargnani plays like an All-Star in 2012-2013. He’s going to expect that he comes into training camp ready to put the effort in on defense. Now that we’ve seen him do it, there’s no excuse.

This might be my confidence in Casey talking, but I’m inclined to expect the same. Yes, I know I’m going off a 13-game sample size in a six year career. I know that the broader evidence suggests consistency and focus on the defensive end are not his strengths. But I’m willing to give Bargnani a pass on the way he played when he came back from his injury — it’s a short season, he didn’t have time to get good practices in and he’s never before been expected to produce on every possession at both ends. As we approach the summer, he knows this isn’t the same old Toronto team. He knows that the organization won’t settle for being below average on defense. He knows he’s expected to make it his team.

Back in August, I was unsure if Bargnani deserved another chance. Now I’m thrilled he got one. As convenient as it may be for ping pong ball purposes, it’s unfortunate that his injury took away his opportunity to definitively show that he’s an elite player. But to my eyes, those early season performances give us more than enough reason for optimism.

Guess I’ll have to wait until November to see if he’ll make me look smart.

The RR End of Season Party is this Wednesday at St. Louis at Yonge/College (7:30pm).

  • DC

    Are you serious? Bargnani must get the most excuses in the league of any player for not putting in the work/ effort on both ends of the court and why he was a garbage one-dimensional player for 6 years of his NBA career. I guess the 7th, 8th year is going to be the year he finally plays on both ends of the court. GTFO here. 13 good games. Out of 6 years definantley means you deserve to stay. Because the 7th year based on those 13 games means your gonna be a allstar and turn into a franchise player the rest of his career. Geez. Dirk 2.0 here we come!! smdh

    • NyAlesund

       You are disappointed about him. I agree with you, but I want to ask you, how many potential or real All Stars are coming in Toronto? I don’t want excuse AB for what he has done and the only way to understand who he is, is to wait the first part of the next season. With a good training camp, with addition of 3/4 good players, playing with a competitive team, we can evaluate him clearly. No excuses. After that (20/30 games) we can draw the line and say: he is the guy or he is not. So trade him without waiting and wasting other time.

      The last thing is: we spent two horrible years with Triano. Probably he is a good professional man but unable to guide a NBA team. Unfortunately we have lost time to evaluate a roster not only Andrea.

      • Theswirsky

        “With a good training camp, with addition of 3/4 good players, playing with a competitive team, we can evaluate him clearly. No excuses.”

        sounds like there is no shortage of excuses built into that criteria.

        he’s played nearly 400 games in the NBA
        He’s had 3 different coaches
        he’s had 5 full trainging camps and 1 partial camp
        he’s played with numerous good players over the years
        he’s played on a playoff team, and a team trying to make the playoffs

        “After that (20/30 games) we can draw the line”

        the line is redrawn every year for him.

        Think about this for a second, do you really believe that Andrea’s ‘ceiling’ or ‘potential’, after all this time in the NBA, is so high that it makes sense to continue with a guy who needs a specific system, with a specific coach, with specific teammates, playing at a specific level before we can even begin to ‘evaluate him clearly’? 

        To me thats absurd.  He’s had his chances and no shortage of them.  Every year he proves the same thing, he is a big that shys away from contact.  The end result is too much jumpshooting, horrid rebounding and bad defense. 

        We KNOW what he is.  We’ve known for years. 

        • mountio

          I agree. We absolutely know what he is. And, unfortunately, hes our best player by a wide wide margin. Hopefully that will change with our draft pick and/or JV – but for now, thats the reality,

          • Theswirsky

            First I don’t buy he is this team best player by a “wide margin”. No question in my mind that this teams ‘best’ player is Jose Calderon.

            But lets ignore that for a second and pretend that Bargs is.  What does that matter?  This team is rebuilding.  If he isn’t good enough to build around, the team shouldn’t be making accomodations for him.   If he can net this team an asset or a pick or be used in a trade to add something or someone else…. and thats what we should be talking about.  Not 7th chances or a 25 different ways to accomodate him.

            Andrea should have been shopped last offseason, during this season and heavy at the trade deadline.  The minute this season is over BC should be offering him up to any team that has a lotto pick  (eg. Milwaukee or maybe Detroit) or a good young player stuck behind someone on the depth charts (eg. Derek Favors in Utah).  Send him to a team that has a high pick and a terrible contract to unload (eg. Washington for Blatche + their pick) etc.

            Bargnani being this team ‘best player’ doesn’t NEED to be reality nor does it mean anything…. and we shouldn’t have to find it acceptable regardless.  Bosh was in every way a superior player to Bargnani, he was the teams ‘best player’, and it wasn’t even close to being good enough.  Exactly how did that benifit this team?  2 first round playoff losses?

            Arse mentioned below that this team needs a significant shake up and I don’t see a player that makes more sense than Bargnani.  And if Bargnani is the ‘best player’ on this team he  should be able to net the team something significant.

            • AB7.38pt.on.CB4

              Who is Arse ? The “T R U T H” ? The GodFather ? The Chosen One ? Or just another Clown typing some technical BB on his spare time.

            • mountio

              First of
              all, JC is NOT our best player .. but for the sake of this argument, lets stay
              on topic.

              Why does
              it matter that AB is our best player? It matters because you would typically
              think you might try to upgrade your other 14 guys on the roster than belly-ache
              about your best player. Does that mean we shouldnt shop him for a good deal?
              Absolutely not. I would love to see us trade him if we get anything remotely
              comparable (especially if it helps us get younger). Not sure I would take back
              a brutal contract to do it .. but for something like Wash’s pick and a half
              decent player .. maybe

              Next .. you
              make the connection that because we are rebuilding, we should automatically get
              rid of AB (who is 26). Given that NBA players peak in their late 20s, there is
              not reason (at least from an age perspective) that AB cant (or shouldn’t) be
              part of this.

              Also – I don’t
              find it acceptable that AB is our best player either. I know we need others
              (and I desperately want them). But – even if you found a better player (say in
              the draft), why get rid of what we be your 2nd best player? What
              about upgrading your 3rd, 4th, 5th etc? Doesnt
              that make more sense?

              On Bosh –
              I totally agree that Bosh wasn’t a franchise player .. and if your point is you
              shouldn’t sign Bosh to a crippling max contract .. I agree. But, if your point
              was to generically trade Bosh (at his old contract) for someone else .. I
              mostly disagree based on what we would have got back (Im talking talent for
              talent, not including the fact he was gonna leave etc.). In addition, AB does not
              have a bad contract .. so the financial point is moot on him.

              This is my
              overriding issue with the anti-AB movement. Its fine to be frustrated with
              where we are. But getting rid of the best things you have (however imperfect
              they may be) is not the answer. If someone gives us a great deal .. hell ya we
              should take it. But getting rid of him for the sake of getting rid of him makes
              no sense at all.

              • Theswirsky

                “But getting rid of him for the sake of getting rid of him makes no sense at all. ”

                and keeping him for the sake of keeping him makes even less sense.

            • Raps Loyalist

               I like the Bargs for Blatche and washington’s pick (assuming that they don’t get #1 cause there is no way they’re trading the pick if they do)

              If BC could get a top 7 pick for Bargs then a trade makes sense from a talent standpoint but after that (like the Bucks pick that will be around 10/11, there won’t be a good enough player there…I don’t want to end up trading Bargs for Sullinger or Rivers)

              Also, long-term, if you trade Bargs for a pick in this years draft JV and the two 2012 first rounders will all start their contracts at the same time.  When it comes to resigning them down the road this could be very difficult unless ownership is not afraid of paying some tax

              I don’t like the Bargs for Favors straight up trade b/c we need a go-to scorer on the roster that can make outside shots. Bargs can be that at the PF and Favors simply can’t. 

              Overall though, I’d love the Washington trade if it meant we could get a) Barnes/MKG and b) T Rob/Drummond as our two picks.

              • mountio

                Im down with that. Not sure we need to take Blatche back (although as I can through the Was salaries, not sure who else works). But conceptually .. if we can get a top 5 pick and some other semi resonable player (not sure Blatche qualifies given all his issues) .. thats a trade Id think about

                • Theswirsky

                  here’s the thing… if people believe a team will give up a top 5 pick in this years draft + additional ‘reasonable’ player,  without taking on a burdensome contract, their dreaming.

        • NyAlesund

           Have you ever seen him playing with a “real” coach? AB is a player that needs a good coach. It is not an excuse. When he played for Messina (tough general), currently at the Lakers, he was unbelievable. Everytime he played for Pianigiani (Italian coach, same typology) despite not in his role, his performance was better than usual.

          Recently in an italian newspaper he said that he likes Casey, the way he pushes him to play hard (considering a type of player).

          I want to be clear again: I am not excusing him but why do we have to get rid of him and not waiting a few months to evaluate him and the other guys?

          As I said before, if he won’t be effective we trade him in february.

          • Truthkiller

            I believe the Coach of the Year in 2006-2007 was Sam Mitchell is he not a real coach?

            • NyAlesund

               I remember him as the coach that put AB to guard James!!!

          • Theswirsky

            He also said he liked Triano when Sam Mitchell was fired, felt it Mitchell was holding him back, and that something ‘clicked’ for him.  On top of that he’s mentioned that he’s ‘lazy’ and ‘does the hard stuff’.  This past year he said he knows he has to be a better rebounder and he will accomplish that by “rebounding better”.   He can say whatever he likes its what happens on the court that matters.

            And I want to be clear.  In a few months its going to be another few months and then another few months.  Then another year.  Then another few months or year.  Next thing we know it will be a decade instead of 6 years.  And don’t tell me that this time will be different, because each other time it was going to be ‘different’ to.

            Stop me when you’ve heard this one before:

            -he’s still young
            -he needs more time
            -its the language barrier
            -it was his deviated septim
            -it was his calf
            -Sam Mitchell is too hard on him
            -Jay Triano is too soft on him
            -Chris Bosh is stealing his spotlight
            -Chris Bosh is stealing his rebounds
            -Chris Bosh is stealing his opportunities
            -Jose is looking off him
            -his teammates aren’t good enough
            -Rasho is standing in the way of his development
            -Jermaine O’neal is standing in the way of his development
            -Chris Bosh is standing in the way of his development
            -expectations are too high
            -he needs to be the center peice
            -he’s not a center peice
            -he’s a SF
            -he’s a PF
            -he’s a C
            -he needs better offensive teammates
            -he needs better defensive teammates

            And now its any combination of the above.  Next year it will be a new one or one of the old ones.

            • mountio

              wow. those are open wounds … I didnt quite realize the level of disdain you have for this guy. I knew you didnt like him, but  ..

              • Theswirsky

                hahaha… clearly its my ‘disdain’ for Bargnani and not the guys who make these excuses for him…. lol

              • Statement

                Brother,

                Those are the excuses being spun about this guy for years now, all in one handy list.

                • Destro

                  Indeed Swirsk
                  Not only crushed the Bargs Brigade stealing there souls in the process but he has written a 5 star fans check list you can literally copy n paste as footnotes when this debate comes up again in future years and you KNOW it will…..Thanks for the downloadable cliff notes Swirsk !

            • Truthkiller

              Exactly the excuses that’s been used all this time

              LOL’d so hard on “Rasho is standing in the way of his development.”

            • Raps Loyalist

              Bargs is a PF that has never played with a true center. Jonas is a true center in size and style of play.

              Give them a year together under Casey and I believe the results will be excellent.

              We’ve invested all this time in Bargs and unless we get an amazing deal for him it would be foolish to dump him now and let another team reap the rewards.

            • Raps4Ever

              And yet you keep coming back fighting every battle over and over, and over again. To what end?

              “And I want to be clear.  In a few months its going to be another few
              months” (of battles) “and then another few months” (of battles). “Then another year” (of battles).  “Then another
              few months or year” (of battles).  “Next thing we know it will be a decade instead of 6
              years” (of battles).

              To what end? You’ve invested a great deal of time and energy into these battles of yours, even documented them extensively it seems. To what end? Have you accomplished anything yet? Or do you finally expect that “this time will be different”? To what end? What do you hope to accomplish that you haven’t after these years of trying?

              Shit, whatever the outcome of AB’s career, what will you have gained?

              • Theswirsky

                Can I ask to what end do you want people to stop pointing out the obvious?  To what end?  Why do you keep fighting battles over people fighting battles? To what end?  You’ve invested a great deal of time and energy constently harping on people who you feel are harping on people.  To what end?

                To what end?  I have to ask, to what end?

                • Raps4Ever

                  Have you ever had an original thought in your life? You’re creativity seems restricted to attempts to use peoples’ words/thoughts against them, in some lame smartass way to avoid responding to a challenge and re-direct it.

                  I get: you haven’t a clue what you hope to accomplish, so the best you have to avoid answering it is to send the question back. I see a political career in your future!!

                  Beyond that, why I waste time on people like you is a good question. I wonder myself sometimes. Aside from not having invested 10% of the time you have, I guess I see a more worthy goal in battling incessant, repetitive negativism that extends to bashing fans that seek fun and optimism in their support of the team.

                  If it’s your choice to call yourself a fan of a team that makes you miserable, so be it, but why put so much energy into trying to drag others into your misery?

                • Theswirsky

                  “you haven’t a clue what you hope to accomplish, so the best you have to avoid answering it is to send the question back”

                  After all this time of you running your mouth, insulting people,  hypocritical comments and general pretentiousness I’m amazed that you expect me to have enough respect for you or one of your alter egos to respond seriously let alone even pretend to try and care to answer one of your pointless distractions from the topic.

                  You may not like hearing opinions (or facts for that matter) that don’t jive with your current and often changing beliefs, but you  aren’t going to keep me from presenting mine.   Keep trying if you like, but I promise you are ‘wasting your time’ and ‘energy’.

                • Raps4Ever

                  lol, still can’t answer the question, aye. Nor even respond to my reply of your echo question. Again, when challenged, all you’ve got is blustering bullshit re-direction after re-direction.

                  “I’m amazed that you expect me to have enough respect for you”…. What in the world would lead you to think I expect, or want, to gain your respect? You think far too highly of yourself, and appear to have not been paying attention.

                  “You may not like hearing opinions (or facts for that matter) that don’t jive with your current and often changing beliefs”

                  LOL, “changing beliefs”. As I say, there’s a politician in you lad.

                  You don’t quite get it, or maybe just part of your misdirection style. I don’t have a problem with different opinions. Hell, sharing varied opinions about the Raptors is the way to learning and growth. What I have a problem with is posters who bash and demean others for having opinions about the Raptors that differ from theirs,,,,,,, like you. I’ve got a problem with bullies, especially smartasshole ones, and push back.

                • Theswirsky

                  like I’ve said befoer p00ka your hypocracy knows no bounds

                • Steve

                  Haven’t you heard? Theswirsky documents every part and aspect of AB’s career and life from the time he was born, and even when he was a young boy in Italy:). He even created a book, filled with pages upon pages of AB’s life. He also had it published, he titled it “How Andrea Bargnani Consumed my Life.” It’s apparently a Picket Fence Times bestseller. :)

                • Nilanka15

                  Stand up comedy is not in your future.

                • Steve

                  It’s not comedy, it is the truth :). And why would I ever go to a comedy show when I can just read your posts? :)

                • Nilanka15

                  You’re a slow learner, aren’t ya?  :)

                  Like I said, stand up comedy is not in your future :)

                • Steve

                  It’s not, I am satisfied with my current job :)

                  You however,while standup is not in your future, being idiotic is in your future (and present).:)

                • Destro

                  ^ this is the absurdity he was talking about when you argue against him….People purposely go off topic deflecting talking about anything but his credentials ANYTHING but the topic at hand….

                  So if a players is overrated we can observe that with facts without it being deflected into some boring ramble about his childhood in Italy and other dreadful shit…..

                  Serious WHAT other raptor player in HISTORY is afforded this protection ??

                • Steve

                  You Gots2Go to bed Gots2go, past your bedtime :)

                • Nilanka15

                  Wow, I feel embarrassed for you.  Please stop with the lame comments :)

                • Steve

                  I don’t need the epitome of embarrassment to feel embarrassed for me :):)

                • Destro

                  Honestly stop trying to be funny your the epitome of a dweeb….Pls tell me you’re not wearing Southpole jeans and a Enyce shirt cuz ur posting just reeks of the type…leave the humor to those who are creative Stephen…

                • Steve

                  I am not trying to be funny. :) 

                  And by the way,you painted a great picture of yourself Gots2Go :) although I always thought you to be more of a crazy homeless hipster type. :)

            • NyAlesund

               What your point? Trade him in the off-season? For who? Pick, role players, All Star?

              No possibility to see him to play alongside Val?

            • hye hye

              i think you may have missed a few , but i’m sure Cesco and Raps4ever can add a few more.

            • raptorsfanatic

              So true.

            • Nilanka15

              You forgot Reggie stealing his rebounds. 

              You’re slippin’ dude 😉

              • Destro

                That was always my favourite….a back up who plays 1/3 his mins stealin his boards ha !

            • Destro

              Dayuuuuuum my man Swirsk came came thru and crushed the buildings in here….Foreal i have never seen about 3-4 posts completely shut down a thread with complete and total ETHER….*salute*

              *sheds a tear*

        • Destro

          *stands*
          *golf clap*

          • CJT

            Finally someone you can look up to.  The world is a better place.

  • Truthkiller

    If the Raptors don’t get the #1 pick this year then might as well see if Bargnani is for “real” after 6 seasons. 

  • Bob

     I’m glad all it takes is 13 games to convince you Bargnani has turned it around. Smh

  • Raps4Ever

    LOL, as if a blog entry about Bargnani optimism is needed (blogs that have nothing to do with him, get dominated with re-hashing 1,000 times repeated AB old lines), this will be a perfect forum for all the “6 seasons” folks to share their misery for the 1,000th time. Let the “fun” begin!!!

    • mountio

      well said. Cant wait. this should be entertaining to hear about how useless hes been over the last 6 years and any coach / GM in the league worth their salt would have nailed his ass to the end of the bench years ago and never looked back ..

      • Destro

        Why the hyperbole ?
        He can obviously play in the NBA nobodys denying that….But what has he accomplished ? PPl here refer to him as a franchise player,all star,game breaker….all points that simply have no evidence to support them…Its funny the people who get upset when you call him what he simply is…i be thinking are you related to him ? Why does it make you upset ?

        Show me playoff wins ? Show me Game winners ? Show me the all star appearances ? Show me the winning seasons ? Show me where he had no help ? He had a 7 time all star beside him….He has a PG that caters to him…
        Show me the lack of opportunities ?

        I realize yall need to use hyperbole cuz you cant really aargue those facts…
        Whats even more funny is dude above said no point in dealing him you wont get fair value back in terms of players..Well then what does that TELL you ?

        • mountio

          What do we have thats better? My point is simple. AB is our best player (and unfortunately its not very close). And, he has been since Bosh left. Im all for getting better players in than him .. I would LOVE him to be our fith best player. But, doesnt it make sense to start buidling a team by keeping your best players and getting rid of your worst?
          Having said that, of course, if we got a good deal for AB – ship his ass out of town .. Im cool with that. But, dont argue that the best way to make a team better is getting rid of its best player (especially if thats because he doesnt fit the mold some people like of a 7 footer) – that does not make sense.

          • Nilanka15

            Instead of looking at it as “best players” and “worst players”, some of us look it as “players who fit” and “players who don’t”.

            In a defensive system, it seems very logical to get rid of your players who don’t/can’t play defense (Bargnani, DeRozan, Calderon, etc.).

            • mountio

              Thats at least a cogent answer. Not sure I agree as we will need someone to score the ball (of course it depends who you get back for DD/AB (Im assuming JC has little to no trade value).
              If you want to totally press the reset button on the team starting this year .. then thats a strategy. It likely sets back the team an extra 2-3 years, but Im not sayings its necessarily wrong ..

              • Destro

                Jalen Rose was once our best player too on a 33-49 team…..meaningless talking point… 

          • Destro

            You “what do we have thats better” posters are simplistic bums with losing attitudes…Bargs isnt worth fighting for,the numbers and losing clearly bac ks that up….We have cap space and a potential top 5 pick that hope is “better”

            Sorry i dont think that my trash is superb trash because its best amongst my other flaming trash…NO SIR ! best player on a bad bunch is irrelevant to me,best player on a 50 win team means something in this league…When we acquire those assets and this team is back to being a functional NBA team worthy of this cities support than you may start celebrating the best of…until then its a completely irrelevant rant….

              

    • DC

      Oops sorry I forgot your the guy that 13 good games out of 6 years means he’s gonna be the franchise stud. Hell be an all star player next year. Going by his development year 12 hell be a top 5 player. SMDH

      • mountio

        Youre right. He has played only 13 good games in 6 years. Absolutely correct.

      • Rob

        Destro! Found another moniker I see? Anyways, can’t talk right now, but see ya later, same place, different alias.

    • Steve

      Yes, Gots2Go/Destro/DC, theswirsky, Nilanka, & co., start your engines!

      Who knows, maybe even picket fence guy Tim might make a cameo? 😉

      • Destro

        22-60
        wins over Celts and Hawks (No AB)
        No all star apperances
        Maybe next year :)

  • pran

    when bargnani plays properly and is driving aggressively to the basket he puts a lot of strain on his body for someone that size. How do we know if he can even stay healthy for one season? b/c we’ve seen how well he can play when he’s injured and it is NOT pretty, especially at the defensive end. Look, Im not saying get rid of the guy at all costs necessary, but I think it would be a mistake to pass up on anthony davis or thomas robinson if we get the chance to draft them.

    • Destro

      NO more strain than any other player in the league who does it MORE…

  • pran

    you guys know this topic is going to create a shitstorm right? fans are divided down the middle on this one..

  • Raptor4Ever

    Lets Look at some numbers here to compare AB which is getting some hate from the fans, Amir who gets most amount of LOVE from our fans and Poor Ed Davis who is regarded as complete failure by our fans. Between the 3, the numbers of Amir vs Ed are the most interesting one :)

          MPG      RPG      APG      BPG      PPG
    AB: 33.3      5.5        2.0       0.5       19.5
    AJ:  24.7      6.5       1.2      1.1        7.2
    ED:  22.5     6.6        0.9      0.9        6.0

    No more PER 36 BS. Any one of these guys could have gotten 40 minutes per game if it was not for foul trouble or playing super inconsistent this season at times. So basically what you see is what you get regardless of the minutes per game and …
     

    • DC

      I got it Bargina doesn’t rebound or play defense. Thanks

      • cesco

        If you weren’t so dumb  you would understand that Toronto has the type of players who aren’t obsessed about their own stats . They are #10 in the league in rebound differential ( 41.72 for them vs 40.57 for the opposition ) . They know that one of them will catch those defensive rebounds and they know also that Andrea spending a lot of time at the perimeter was never and will never be a great rebounder but he help them win around 50% of their games when he is healthy , they respect that . Next year , if everything turn out good ( JV , Draft , lack of major injuries ) , the Raps will be balling and winning more than 50% of their games , playoffs for sure . Book it .

        • Destro

          SO any raptor players stats we can circumvent into team stats then right ? If only the league could understand this then bargs would be a top 5 rebounder….

      • Raptor4Ever

        You missed the point. I can care less about AB vs Amir vs Ed and … I am a fan of the team and NOT a player and to be honest, simply sick and tired of the usual BS of bashing AB,X or Y player. I was just pointing out to their numbers and what they have done this season … If Anything, AB is not that far behind Amir or Ed in terms of rebounding PER GAME after ALL …

        • Destro

          He plays alot more mins…

  • Theswirsky

    “he’s going to demand that Bargnani plays like an All-Star in 2012-2013”

    yeah just like he saw star talent in Andrea this year…. oh wait did we hear that after the 13 games?  Right

    How about how Andrea was expected to grab 2 boards a quarter?  Those expectations were quashed within a few games…

    Andrea is what he is, and it isn’t good enough.  Trade him while he finally may have some value.

  • Raptorsguy

    Wow… you guys who bash Bargnani and want him traded are ridiculous. If it wasn’t for the calf injury he arguably might have made the All-Star game or at least have been highly considered for it. And you want to get rid of him? Nobody else from the Raptors even came close to being in the All-Star game. Besides if you got rid of him who would you have replace him or take his minutes? Amir? Ed Davis? Give me a break, those two played so poorly that Aaron Gray took their minutes. In the end I’d place my bet on a sample size of Bargnani playing amazing for 13 games (I’d argue more) over the sample size of the almost 60 games we’ve seen Ed and Amir play, which except for a few good games, was mediocre all around.

    • Trruth

      that’s why jack armstrong reminds us he’s praying we get anthony davis every game right? face it, bargnani is not untouchable.

      • Raptorsguy

        Your right, no one is untouchable, but face it Bargnani is the closest thing to untouchable. Even if we got Davis, and that’s a big if, you really think that they’d trade Bargnani? Your crazy. I’ll admit Davis would bring a shit ton of rebounds and defense and defense is very important, but in that scenario, who’s scoring your points on this team? Calderon? Derozan? JV? I highly doubt it. When the team lost Bargnani’s offense, they immediately took a nose dive in terms of wins. Everyone seems to want to point fingers and get rid of, in my opinion the best player on the team, but no one seems to want to offer answers. (and no in this post I’m not stating I think Bargnani is better then Anthony Davis, not at all. Just stating your argument that if we happen to get Anthony Davis, Bargnani will be on his way out is rediculous)

        • Trruth

          why do you want to settle for mediocrity of the 1 dimensional bargnani? I don’t think you understand the concept of a two way player. you know someone who can defend as well as score. Anthony Davis has the potential to be that guy.    
          You also assume bargnani is going to be traded for a sack of shit. I’ve heard that josh smith has asked to be traded, and bargnani might just be the best offer atlanta gets. A lot of people  in philly are also grumbling iguodala is ridiculously overpaid and not worth his contract, and with elton brand aging bargnani would be an upgrade at the PF.   wing players there who can help us score, and solid veterans who play stellar defense.
          Our first priority should be to sign a veteran centre, allowing valanciunas lee way to adjust.    

          veteran c/Jonas/gray
          Davis/E. Davis 
          J.smith or Iguodala/James Johnson/Kleiza  
          Derozan/Barbosa  
          Calderon/Bayless

          • Trruth

            my biggest problem with bargnani is after all this time you still don’t know who you have, was his defensive rotations so shitty down the stretch because he was injured or because he sucks at it? was he settling for jumpshots down the stretch b/c he was injured or because that’s who he is, and will always be: a jump shooting big man. 

            Not to mention we had the best defensive rebounding rate in the league before bargnani returned, look it up.

          • CJT

            I will not pretend to have seen a ton of Davis this season, but from the tournament games I saw of his, his offense was brutal.  He was absolutely amazing on D, but looked like he had no clue at all on the offensive end.  He may have done more in the regular season, I’m not sure. 

        • Destro

          Its not ridiculous breh….If we get AD,bargs is on his way out….

    • Lorenzo

       Good point, I agree.

    • Destro

      Sorry coaches werent going to pick him…and mights after 13 games are rooted in delusion… 

  • Arsenalist

    Jeremy Lin had a strong 13 games too, you don’t hear about him making the All-Star team anytime soon. 

    To expect Bargnani to be anything more than what he’s already shown to be over six seasons is bad management.  Bottom line is that unless the Raptors shake things up large, they will again be terrible next year with or without Bargnani so it doesn’t really matter. 

    I have no faith in Colangelo to build a contender in Toronto, his track record speaks for itself.  The only good thing he’s done in the last five years is basically to hire Dwane Casey, and that came three years too late.

    Look at his trades, look at his signings, look at his draft picks, there is nothing that stands out about Colangelo’s transactions.  He couldn’t recognize Kris Humphries use to a team that lacked hustle and toughness, and threw him in as trade filler.  You and I probably didn’t blink an eye when that happened, but Colangelo’s being paid to recognize exactly these sorts of situations and make the right decision.  Yet he’s failed time and time again.

    Hedo, JO, Marion, Moon, Barbosa, Kapono, Jack, Kleiza, J. Johnson, Weems, Davis, Alabi, Belinelli, Antoine/Julian Wright,  Solomon, Adams – these are the types of players he’s tried to rely on.   It’s unfuckingbelievable.

    To get hung-up on Bargnani is pointless, we need a PF and he’s a decent one, just don’t ask him to be a “franchise” player, that’s where the Raptors made the mistake with Chris Bosh, and will be repeating it with Bargnani.

    There are other, much larger, issues on this roster to deal with. I have no faith Colangelo can rise up to the challenge, mostly because I think he’s simply not a good GM and doesn’t know what it takes to win.

    • Raptor4Ever

      Post of the season !!!

      I wish some of our fans would just wake up and see what is really happening with this franchise. To think that arrival of Val and another draft pick next year ( 5th or 6th pick) will magically make us contender in 2-3 years is just NOT logical. 

    • Bendit

      Most agree that this summer is a crossroads kind of time for the team. Ya think you could wait until after for the barrel unload? No sense shooting him now.

    • Raps Loyalist

      Worst post I’ve ever read.

      The rebuild is going well.  We have a great coach in place and promising young talent at the 2, 4, and 5.  We are in a good position to draft a high quality SF.  We will have good depth on the bench next year and an above average PG in Calderon.

      BC has a good overall draft record with both the Suns and Raps.  His trades and free agent signings have not been good but with Casey as our coach we’re finally building a defensive minded team and I have confidence that any free agents that BC will pursue will be quality defenders.

      I don’t know if you noticed but the East is very far from stacked and the Raps will be fighting for a playoff spot next season with an exciting young core.

      Honestly, the prospects for this team have never been better for sustained success since the young VC was in town.  I’m normally not an optimist (especially with the Raps) but as long as we get Barnes or MKG things are looking very good…Will be starting 4 top 9 picks if we get one of those SFs.  

      Is BC the best GM in the league? No, he is not but he’s the best GM the Raps have ever had by a mile, (not saying a lot but true)… If you want BC fired please suggest some names of realistic GM candidates that you’d bring in to interview.  Fact is he’s mid-rebuild and I think he deserves this off-season to set this team up in the defensive mold that Casey wants. 

      C…JV, Grey, Amir
      PF..Bargs, Davis, Amir
      SF..Barnes/MKG, Kleiza, J Johnson
      SG..Demar, Forbes
      PG..Calderon

      Sing a quality vet backup PG and a backup SG and this team could easily make the playoff next year and be in a good position to keep building.

      • Destro

        Change ur name to Bargnani loyalist…

    • ad

      When Colangelo was in Phoenix he signed Steve Nash. Has colangelo ever brought in anybody of that caliber to Toronto? Never. He cant attract good players here because the team has been so shitty and he has been building around the wrong players. He should have valued defense and rebounding more when we had a more offensively talented team.Having said that, I do think the rebuild is going the right direction even though bargnani is the only potential (unlikely) all star on the roster currently. No way derzoan amounts to anything significant with his ballhandling skills. Same goes for davis with his offensive skills.

      • Brian B

         Did he even sign Nash? Was he GM then or was his Dad? And even if he had the title, the perception was that Jerry & Mike D’Antonio ran the team. When Jerry sold, the buyers had no use for him. Sure, he was viewed as an upgrade on Babcock, but he really hasn’t performed. Your comment does not make it clear to me why you think the rebuild is going in the right direction. I am not convinced it HAS a direction, The stand alone act of drafting JV is an event, not a direction. It is POSSIBLE that he + DC can instill a personality in the team, but there still is very little talent.

    • 511

      That paragraph of named players is bogus, imo. You’ve got the obvious ones that’ll cause everyone to do an automatic eye-roll, but they’re mixed in with names that either could’ve turned out a lot better than they did (with average luck) or simply weren’t any worse than any other player who may’ve been available. It’s mixing in crap to puff up the argument, I think. 

      Can’t argue that Triano was a waste of time (you don’t mention that here but … ) that set things back more than it even just marked time, but with what he did next – hire Casey – he showed that he might’ve learned something. 

      While he was doing that, he’d noticed that a lot of the players he’d brought in had basically taken a courtside dump and called a cab … so he found a guy who had a better record than he himself has at drafting and trading — Ed Stefanski (and I maintain that Stefanski is likely a better judge of NBA-worthiness than BC … but mostly, I suspect that together, they might be better than either of them is, separately … though I’ll admit that I do imagine Casey having a say there, strengthening that dynamic, exponentially) — and now, here we are, with a Bargs that may or may not be what he looked like early this season (I suspect more yes than no but … and I hate to say it, but .. we’ll see next year), we’ve got JV coming in (who knows? but it looks encouraging) and maybe a half-decent draft pick coming (ya, total guess and I have no idea). 

      With how Casey coached this team at times, and all those other things, you CAN’T throw the towel in on BC right f’ing now. Please. Not now. He’s gotta get one more year. Just one. 

    • Destro

      Great post
      You have to consider tho the intellectual dishonesty that comes with these bargnani fans is rooted in something else other than being a raptor fan….You know what im getting at….I guarantee you if Bargs was black and had his exact game and track record not a single one of these posters would ride for him the way they do…

  • NyAlesund

    First of all AB played 17 excellent games. The last four before he re-injured were amazing. 24 points, 50% from the field, good decision making, decent defence and he made baskets down the stretch. Everyone knows how he played for 5 years. He showed an incredible offensive abilities and a strong lack in defence. The new coach demanded him to play on both side of the floor and for the first time we saw him to make efforts in right direction. So, I am not forgetting what he has done in the past and considering this ridicolous season I think is necessary and wise to give to AB another 3 months to prove what guy he is (the old or the new). To show us that he will be committed to do the right job. If he will play bad or not well enough, we trade him. Despite all, there are many teams in the NBA willing to take him.

    In regards with the rebounds, I want to remember the importance of the numbers. It is not really relevant how many rebs AB catch, but what he has done to help his teammates to grab. For me, is more important how he works on defence end. And considering his position on the floor I am not surprised about the numbers. What I really want to see from him is more willing to contest the shots.

    The last point is: we need talent. I don’t know what BC will do this summer, but the first thing is add talented player, because you can have a best coaching staff in the world, but if you don’t have a good ones you can’t do nothing. And with all respect Amir, ED, Kleiza, Gray, Forbes, JJ… are good guys but we can’t afford to see them playing a lot of minutes. They are role players. I am expecting to have at least a talented starting five.

    • Tonious35

       Bargs can’t be the answer to everything wrong with this team…so +1; we need more talent PRONTO!  Some of these bench players and role-players can stay, but we need some new and mature young blood on this team.  Hell, seriously consider a 2nd rounder (Alibi doesn’t count jack-sh$t, he had plenty of suck potential), because a succeeding 2nd rounder making the rotation can generate only positive vibes and encourage the “franchise” player to work harder.

    • Truthkiller

      His importance on defense not relevant how many rebs AB catch, now I know you don’t watch Basketball. You finish off a defensive play with a rebound it’s elementary, when you rebound the ball you give your team a better chance to win. Everyone knows the team that gets killed on the boards usually doesn’t win the game. And if your trying to build an NBA contender just look at the Chicago Bulls, their big guys rebound and play defense. 

      • NyAlesund

         I am watching the games, believe me. If you saw the games you could see how many times AB left the teammates to grabs uncontested ones. I don’t want to exaggerate but at least 1/2 per game. So, it means 7/8 total. What I really want is to see him grab a rebs in traffic down the stretch and contest the shots. The rebs? 6 or 8 are not the real question.

        • Destro

          Your full of shit…AB doesnt leave rebounds for teammates you dishonest asshole…

          • Nilanka15

            I don’t think he’s being dishonest.  I think he actually believes Bargnani is leaving rebounds for his teammates.  It’s quite sad.

          • NyAlesund

             Thank for your kindness…. Really………….. Can you tell me why he have done exctly the same in his National team?

            • Destro

              Fuck his national team nobody cares about that jr high bullshit….he dont leave teammates for no teammates and if you believe that your a cot damn imbecile…

              • Destro

                Edit : Rebounds for teammates

              • NyAlesund

                I am what? I am not accustomed to offend anyone expecially if we are talking about sport.

                We have different opinion about AB’s reb issue. Stop.

              • Rob

                You are one dumb sad old bloke. 

  • AB7.38pt.on.CB4

    AB is an Elite NBA Player. Colangelo is a respectable GM, appreciated around the League. Dwayne Casey is a formidable coach with a Ring in his pocket. Can they make mistakes ? I know you are  the ones who never did one. That’s why you look like old ladies on a bus complaining about all the others but you.
    If you have balls go to the ACC and boo Bargnani Colangelo and Casey, maybe you will find a bunch of morons folowing you.

    Have a nice day and keep your liver for next year because AB will be there as a 20 – 5, 7 foot PF.

    • Truthkiller

      Bargnani Elite NBA player what a joke, a guy like Kevin Love showed in his 2nd and 3rd year no matter what the talent around him is he can be a franchise guy. Bargnani in his 6th season & 13 games has showed “potential” to be franchise guy. 

      • mountio

        Minny’s record? 25-36. Raps record? 21-39.
        Thats with Rubio playing half the year and the 2nd overall pick in last year’s draft. Im not quite ready to call Love a frachise guy yet, especially after going 17-65 last year and barely finishing better than our shit Raps this year?
        Hes the anti-AB .. he fills the stat sheet offensively. But – you cant just look at his boxscores (especially rebounding) if its not leading to wins ..

        • Destro

          Hows is that the anti AB ?
          Thats exactly what AB is stupid…a scorer on a bad team that dont lead to wins…you hypocrites are something else….So we call Kevin love a stat stuffer and argue that AGAINST bargnani…

          You fukkers do not watch basketball its clear as day…

    • Destro

      most elite players play in all star games and compromise 3 all nba teams…

      Has bargnani ever even been a player of the week ? ha!

  • AB7.38pt.on.CB4

    Did I say all you Morons ? Just checking, Yes I did

    • Destro

      Bosh 7
      Bargs 0

  • Tonious35

    Those 13 games weren’t worth it.  Injuries, rust, blah, blah, blah, doesn’t cut jack S@#% to me.  Even after injuries or long delays, the “franchise” player of this team needs to generate the attitude or presence that he wants to kill people or put a hurting on someone. 

    After the calf injury in UTAH or PHX, Bargs lost his focus and “killer instinct” that dug our team through for some tough-earned wins.  Everyone thought Bargs had mentally developed when he was pissed about his injury.  We are wrong when he returned and just floated around and only defended when his shots can only fall, back to Goood ol’ basic Bargs all over again. 

    Yes, other players on this team laid some eggs from time to time (Bad JJ, Demar DeInconsisetency, and Ed Dont’-shoot-it-looks-ugly), but Bargs is the guy earning the biggest cheque and he’s got to play and be involved with as much as he can do. 

    For next season, Bargs has got to figure out on maintain the “attitude” for every game, when his shots fall or when they don’t.

    • Lisa

      When you come back from injury you are not going to have your form back ASAP, that’s what happened with him. In the last few games before he got injured again he was starting to get back in his form

      • Destro

        NO its not what happened to him….13 games isnt HIS form….

        Whats funny to me is his 13 games is being held up on a pedestal as basketball greatness,it was good for him but it wasnt anything outworldly what he did in those 13 games….ppl acting like he averaging a triple double or was dominating on both ends and this team was 10-3 and shit….
        His scoring was up slightly his FG % was up from shitty to respectable for a big man and his rebounds were almost on par with most SG and SF’s…

        This 13 games is even overrated by the fanboys….He still wasnt going to an all star game…

  • Robin

    It’s too bad AB’s calf went out and he did what he did in a small sample size, but you see what he did post-injury and you have to realize how tough it is to come back from a calf injury and be the same player you were. I play on a soccer team, not professionally of course, but in a fairly competitive league down in the states. I strained my calf once during a game, thought it wasn’t a big deal, stretched it out, and went back to playing. Over the course of the game there was a lingering pain, that went from a dull ache to more of a sharper pain as I moved/ran faster. I took 2 weeks off, all seemed well, went back to playing, and the ache returned, only milder, it affected a lot of my game, it made me cautious with everything, took away from my explosiveness, my turns, my short sprints, and I became really hesitant to try any headers, as upon landing, it’d briefly reach the climax of pain before leveling off to a mild pain. It wasn’t enough to stop me from playing, but it was enough to stop me from playing well, and I’m not making excuses for him, just giving those who haven’t had calf injuries a heads-up. My views on him are totally objective.

    Just would’ve been nice if he hadn’t got injured in the first place, he was playing well, he got into shape over the offseason, spent most of it in Toronto, really worked on his game. I’ve never agreed that he is a player to be built around, or one of franchise player status, but when he’s playing like he is during those 13 games, he can really become an effective player, not an elite one, but a pretty good one. I’m not going to get caught up in the whole 6 years business, what’s done is done, and these things always work themselves out. We’ll see what happens this summer.

    • cesco

      Your experience support what has been said by many people about calf injuries ; depending on their extent it may takes a while to recover . It looks like the 13 days he took off after the first injury were simply not enough . Returning from his second injury he also had to get back in shape and never reached the top form he displayed at the start of the year , perhaps like in your case , there was some lingering pain which affected his recovery and finally resulted in him being shut down . Let us hope that after a few months with exercises and rest he will be back at 100% , lead the Raps into the playoffs and shut the mouth off of all the haters .

      • Destro

        DO you work for the Italian consulate ?

        • Steve

          yup, his foreign policy includes sucking bargnani’s dick.

      • Destro

        Thank God he needed the rest so we could beat Boston and Atlanta…

    • Truthkiller

      With the season goals in mind for this season, if Bargnani was feeling any pains then he should’ve never came back in the first place. 

    • Destro

      healthy calf isnt going to give him a heart….

  • FAQ

    Next season…. JonasV & Bargs…. Twin TO Towers…. …. now if they could also play SF, SG and PG……!

  • Ion66

    One day we well trade AB. He will kick our butts when he plays against us, and be maddeningly inconsistent in every other game he plays in. I really believed he’d turned a corner this year. When he came back and he failed to produce anywhere near the level he had previously, I began to wonder if it was a matter of not being interested in playing a season where we were obviously out of the playoffs? I bought into the “he just needs to find his rythm” line just a bit too long for my tastes. I do believe that he can and will play at a high level if and when the team is genuinely competing for something other than pride, but I’ve now got the added doubts about his durability going forward.

    • Destro

      Hows he gonna kick our ass from the euro league ?

  • Mantcore13

    13 games still more than players like Eric Gordon played. :)

  • Aaron8007

    People you can’t let the frustration of the last 6 years lead you to make a bad decision now.  No one knows what offers that BC is getting for AB so to just trade him for the sake of trading him is stupid!!  OBviously rebounding and  help defense have been an issue with AB since he started playing in the NBA.  Most of this is AB’s fault but obviously Mitchell and Triano weren’t great at teaching those skill sets.  Casey in a part season taught AB to do rebound and play help defense better then he has ever done.  Add in that the raptors played 11th ranked team defense with AB playing and its possible to play good defense with AB on the court.   AB needs to continue to work on these weaknesses to be a better all around basketball player.
         So wait untill next year to see how much more he progresses in those skill sets.  We already know that he can score 20 points a game in the NBA.  Also know that he can play along side another 20 plus point a game scorer.  So go and get the talent we need to be successful and then decide to trade AB if he can’t make it work.  But don’t put a bunch of crappy players around AB and blame him for the failure of a team that has well below average NBA talent.  
           

    • NyAlesund

       Exaclty my point of view.

    • Destro

      So now coaches didnt teach him well ?
      If we dont know what BC is getting offered then why are you advising us that YOU know what he was AB was getting taught by coaches ? You dont think in the NBA head coaches were teaching there players esp young centers how to play defense ? Thats not logical breh…The more logical selection is he doesnt want to learn to doesnt use what he’s learned in games….As an NBA pro player you dont wait for coaches to teach you small Xs & Os you should already have a grasp on those things 6 seasons into your career….

      and again more protection….so team rebounds and teams D is whatever place in Fg % so that takes the focus off any individual player not doing his job on that team ? Fukk outta here…

      For 3 seasons bargs had more than adequate talent on his team and he was no more than the 3rd option on those teams…and THOSE teams made the playoffs….Bosh leaves…Bargs is now the focal point and we are a combined 44-110 sao please STFU…. 

  • 511

    Bill Simmons article in Grantland yammers some about the NBA and tanking and … haven’t finished reading it yet. But one thing – after saying “if there was ever a season for the league to put live cameras in the Ping-Pong room so we could see with our own eyes what happens, it’s this season” he announces that next week they’ll be “following the daily proceedings of this seedy process …”. Getting a feeling the lottery this year will be under a big fat magnifying glass. Which probably wouldn’t be a bad thing … . 

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7809914/absurd-tanking-knicks-surging-miami-madness  

    • Lorenzo

      That would be a fantastic thing, now all the conspiracy-theorists can breathe a little.

      But can you blame them? We actually have proof of a fix years ago.

    • Raps4Ever

      The lottery draw is witnessed by representatives of every team in the league. For Stern to fix something, he’d have to have every team in cahoots with him. Does anyone actually think that’s possible?

      If that’s not enough, it’s also witnessed by reps from one of the largest independent auditing firms in the world, which also happens to be the 8th largest PRIVATE company in the U.S.. With what’s at risk for them, what’s the chance that Stern has them in his back pocket too?

      Seriously, what could we see through TV cameras that these witnesses don’t see in person?

      • 511

        If you’re asking ‘what could we see …?’ for real, well … call me crazy but personally, I’d like to see each of the fourteen individual ping pong balls weighed and inspected by two accredited individuals from separate organizations; a full explanation of how the machines are inspected, how they work and how randomness is guaranteed; that all NBA officials  – incl D.S.- do not come into any contact with the lottery balls or machine(s) … or within 30 feet of them; and … probably a couple other things I can’t think of right now. 

        Thing is, with the great big splashy NBA related productions that happen with everything from the All Star Dunk/3 Pt Shot/How’s-Your-Sister Contests to LeBron’s Decision and whatever other extravaganza they can think of and sell advertising for … why wouldn’t they make a big whoop-de-do production out of the lottery? They could probably stretch it into a full hour (easy), with nation-wide prime-time advertising and everything else that they’d normally be all over like a bad smell … but they don’t. They hide in the back and do it in ‘private’ with sequestered eye-witnesses to later tell of the event like they went to the top of the mountain to receive special blessings. 

        If you’re still wondering, Google NBA Fixed Lottery on YouTube and see if you come up with anything from back in the days when they WERE showing the goings-on of lottery day. 

        I’m aware (and even half-believe) that most of what goes on during lottery day is likely on the up-and-up … but it’d be too easy to bring it into the open and even make it a $how. Why they wouldn’t do that only makes people wonder. Just like I sort of do. 

        • Raps4Ever

          Sorry, but I still laugh at the conspiracy theory of the 1985 draft, and don’t need to see the video again to know what can or can’t be read into it. No doubt it gave the paranoids plenty of food though, so that’s why there has been gigantic changes made to the process. Not only is it not a potentially questionable envelope draw, but the ping pong ball lottery draw is NOT determined by a single ball that might be magically weighed differently.

          I don’t know if full examination of machine and it’s workings, detailed
          weighing of each ball, etc. would be considered dramatic television
          worthy of “NBA splashy production”, but the way the draw is conducted
          renders the need for that close inspection meaningless to either us or
          the witnesses currently present in the room. 

          People who shout conspiracy about the current process either haven’t looked into the actual process or don’t have the capacity to understand how impossible it is to fix the draw.

          It’s a misnomer when people talk about having “more ping pong balls”. That’s not how it works. The number of chances aren’t more balls, but more combinations of 4 of the 14 balls that are used in the draw. These combinations are assigned such that no set of balls can be pre-assigned to guarantee a certain winner. Now, think about it. They need to draw 3 different combinations that are assigned to three different teams, using the exact same 14 balls. If they were to fix it to guarantee that a particular team would get the first pick, then that combination of 4 of the 14 balls would keep coming out, and they’d never get a combination of 4 that would assign pick #2 and pick #3. Seriously, the way it’s run, it’s not possible to fix it to get a specific 1st draw, without attempts to define the 2nd and 3rd pick exposing the conspiracy. The procedure is set up to eliminate legitimizing concerns of the paranoids, but I guess there will always be some that believe what science disproves. Shit I hear there are still many who believe Adam and Eve were created out of thin air and Noah saved all the animals of the planet on that ark.

          • 511

            That was all well said. While I knew most of what you say here, there are things for me to think about. Cheers. 

      • Destro

        Auditing firms themselves and alot of large private firms are crooked operations you know this right ? Nothing is above being a fix you gullible idiot…hell if the US govt is corrupt anything can be….smh !

        • Rob

          Gots2Go, are you off the meds again? Looks like your other personality Dumstro has escaped again, please make him go away, at least you’re slightly less of a nutcase.