Deep breath, Bargs. Now hear me out.

Alrighty, let me preface this article by saying this: I know it’s becoming borderline cliché to hate on Andrea around here, and I don’t want to fall into that trap. Clearly, the guy is a useful player, a starter on a good percentage of teams around the league and a guy who would get minutes wherever he played – hell, if they had the All Star game after the first 10 games of the year last season you’re looking at the East’s starting power forward.

That said, for Andrea, the start of this season has been… inconsistent, to say the least. Despite some flashes of offensive brilliance, Bargs has been, for the most part, ineffective on that end – shooting 36% from the field, which is the worst percentage of his career, by far – he hasn’t gone below 43% since 2008. As Blake’s pointed out a few times, he’s averaging just barely a point per FGA, his Hollinger PER is the lowest it’s ever been, etc, etc.

Basically, the statistics back up the eye test. For anyone watching the Raptors this year, it’s more or less impossible to argue that it’s been a strong start this year for Andrea on the offensive end, to say nothing about his… let’s say, occasional effort when it comes to rebounding that has become a bit of a Bargnani staple. This is something the team brass expected (players don’t suddenly become incredible rebounders in year seven) and have taken steps to remedy (surrounding him with a true center, an excellent rebounding point guard in Lowry, and what looks like a better-than-we-all-expected rebounding shooting guard in DeMar). The offensive woes, though, are a huge issue – even with all the changes, you’d have to believe that this team and its fans expected big things from Bargs on that end.

All of this preamble is likely old hat to most of the Republic faithful, who’ve been watching the same games I have this year. We all know Bargnani’s been struggling. So, let’s get to the idea posed so eloquently in the headline:

Is it time for Andrea to go to the bench?

There are a few obvious pros to this idea, as well as a couple of not so obvious ones. For the team as a whole, bench scoring has been difficult to come by. The Raps are currently ranked 16th in the league in bench scoring – a number that doesn’t seem too bad when taken on its own, but that becomes more problematic in regards to the Raptors, specifically. This is a team who’s hallmark coming into the season was supposed to be its deep bench, but, as we’ve seen through the first eight games of the year, through no fault of a specific player (as well as some injuries), the bench doesn’t really have anyone besides Jose who can create his own shot, save for the hot-and-cold Linas Kleiza. Adding Bargs to the bench rotation would immediately stabilize the scoring on that end, giving the team a number one option for the second unit it doesn’t have right now.

Secondly, becoming the number one option of a unit should invigorate Andrea’s game. It’s been stated by my fellow Republic writers this season that Bargs needs a couple of quick touches to get into a game and get motivated (the fact that we’re having this discussion about a guy making $10 million a year is another column altogether). To the extent they can, the stats back that up over his career – Andrea’s best two seasons in terms of Hollinger PER (reasonably effective in measuring offensive efficiency), and the only two seasons when he was above the league average, had his usage rate above 25% (it’s closer to 21 this year). With a scoring point guard in Lowry, an emerging DeRozan, and a player in Jonas who’s role in the offense will only be increased as the season rolls along, it’s hard to believe Bargs’ usage rates will ever come back to that level with the way the starting lineup is currently constructed.

Essentially, the more often Bargnani has the ball, the more effective he is – a trait that’s great for players who are true number one scoring options, but seriously problematic for players who aren’t talented enough to assume that role on a successful team. In a bench role, he’d immediately become the alpha dog of the second unit, getting more touches, and, assuming the stats hold, the requisite efficiency boost that comes with that. There’d be a bit of a minutes drop, of course, but I’d imagine it wouldn’t be too drastic – there’s no reason he couldn’t play in crunch time and given the way Casey plays his bigs (and the way the bigs get in foul trouble) it’s hard to imagine a scenario where Bargs couldn’t get 30 minutes a game as the team’s first scorer off the bench (he’s currently averaging 34.5).

Clearly, a move to the bench would improve the second unit’s scoring punch, and, if you can accept my premise that it’d improve Andrea’s effectiveness as well, there’s a case to be made for moving the big Italian to the bench. Now, what about the case against it?

Well, for starters – who’d replace him in the starting lineup? Common logic would suggest it’d be Amir (also finally uniting a very intriguing big combo with JV that Casey seems loathe to use, for some reason), but I’d guess that the team would settle on Ed Davis, if only because a Davis/Bargs frontline of the team’s second unit is softer than Andrea’s favourite Primo pasta after 20 minutes in the pot. Davis is a solid rebounder who arguably deserves more minutes than he’s been getting this season, but the drop-off in offence is a precipitous one in this scenario – you’d go from one of the team’s top scoring options to a guy who, to borrow a crude expression, couldn’t catch a cold.

Assuming the defensive switch from Andrea to ED is more or less a wash, given Davis’ stronger rebounding tendencies and Bargs’ slightly better on-ball defence, the crux of this proposed switch comes to the offensive side – basically, can Lowry (once healthy) and DeMar take on enough of the first and third offense to offset Bargnani moving to the bench? The answer to that question is one that likely depends on who you’re asking and when  – anecdotally, I’d say yes, but I don’t have stats to back that one up.

So, what’s the answer here? Do the potential advantages from moving AB to the bench outweigh the additional offensive strain it puts on the starters? Can ED and/or Amir handle the additional minutes such a move would entail (even if it was a non-traditional minutes distribution)? How would Andrea take the idea of a move to the bench in from a motivational standpoint? Does it even matter, really?

As you can see, I’ve got plenty of questions but am short on answers. My thoughts: if Bargs continues his slow start to the season I’d like to see Casey consider it on a short term basis, if only to put some fire under Andrea’s ass. That said, we’re not exactly overflowing with strong big men, and “he might not be perfect, but he’s the best we’ve got” is a refrain Raptors fans have heard far too often.

What do you think? Is this a move worth trying? Will this column, at the very least, inspire Andrea the way my DeMar extension reaction clearly motivated DeMar to make me eat my words? Comment below or tweet at me  @GarrettHinchey.

  • Andre

     i think he should come of the bench. it makes sense. He would be a nice spark of the bench and he can still get his mins. BUT we would need to fill his void. I suggest to try to do a deal with Utah. Al Jefferson or Paul Milsap.. the asking price may not be as bad as ppl think.

    • tmk

      The asking price may not be as bad, but it doesn’t mean they have no value and that other teams wouldn’t love trading for those two. Other than JV, who do we have that they want? The Jazz aren’t running a charity.

      • AC

        The Jazz need a true point guard. We could offer Calderon and maybe Ross or Davis for millsap. We’d both get what we need. It’s time for the Andrea era to cease, we need a true Power forward and a scoring SF

        • 2damkule

          can’t see the jazz giving up their best player for an old PG (even if he is a good back-up) and guys who are just as likely to be busts as they are to be decent.  notwithstanding the fact that bargs would still be on the team.

        • Nilanka15

          The risk is that Millsap is an unrestricted free agent this summer.  We’ll need confirmation that he’s willing to sign an extension.

  • Nilanka15

    Your proposal certainly wouldn’t hurt trying, but it would have to wait until Lowry is back/healthy. 

    But maybe we should be exploring the “T-word” instead:

    “Bargnani is a relic of a different time in Raptor-land, a time when
    offensive prowess was valued above all else, a time when the team was
    defined by a different cast of characters and a different guiding
    philosophy. For fans, he is a nightly reminder of what this team is
    supposed to be moving away from. The club wants to be seen as a gritty,
    defence-first outfit that wins with heart and hustle, and Bargnani is
    simply the antithesis to that style. He no longer belongs. Like so many
    Raptors before him, he has teased fans with what he could be and has
    refused to live up to that standard.”

    http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=409482

    • Destro

      Chisholm is always late on these things…but that article is scathing and its full of truths….people want to argue the merits of his D

      20.5 PER against HIM  Etherous ! 

  • FAQ

    Are you suggesting that Bargs doesn’t fit in with Casey’s system of ‘defense-first’ and the offense will somehow flow from that?

    Then there is the rise in scoring options.. DD, Lowry, others, that leaves Bargs cold outside the arc where he usually positions himself on offense. Passing out to the arc doesn’t happen with the Raptors and we see a lot of desperation shots by the ball hogs.

    Also, Bargs offense consists of lofting 3-point shots, dribble and pull up jumper, or trying to drive to the basket… the same as Dirk does. That only works if he has the ball in his hands… or as Hedo reiterated “ball ball ball”.

    So it’s up to the PGs to feed Bargs the ball, and if they don’t/can’t, Bargs is iced.  Perhaps Barg’s defense effort comes from his offensive success… which doesn’t fit in with Casey’s philosophy of busting your arse on defense and then sailing through on offense.

    • The Truth

      This argument would make sense if he wasn’t getting the ball, but he is – he just is proving incapable of consistently putting it in the hoop this season.

      • FAQ

        He may get the ball, but it’s not at an opportune time; he gets the ball when it’s a bail out situation and that causes desperation shooting.  The current system just doesn’t include Bargs, so a trade would be appropriate… and encouraged by Bargs too.

        Could Bargs be doing a quiet ‘vince’..??!!!

      • Jhszxc

        The way Bargnani is playing right now, he’d be moved to the banch. He is wasting to many shots (last game 3-13 FGM-A and is a very poor rebounded. (only 2 RB and 1 A per almost 30 min of play ) – just a disgrace for any starter…

  • Theswirsky

    Holy shit – just do anything other than maintain the status quo with him. It is not working, it has not been working and there is no evidence it will work.

    Trade, bench, 6th man, short leash, hand his mother over to the David Stern.  I don’t care.  Just try SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

    • cesco

       Perhaps you forgot that JV is a rookie , Fields was a failure as a starter  and Lowry injury created big problems at the PG spot ( although Lucas has been  improving ) . As usual with the haters , it is always AB fault if the team is losing .

      • Nilanka15

        Those reasons don’t seem to be affecting the other players as much as Bargnani.  Why is Bargnani struggling more than anyone else?

        • Theswirsky

          you are better served talking to a brick wall than Cesco about Bargnani. 

        • cesco

           He is struggling for whatever reasons but Jonas is developing quite well , Andrea find him with passes/dunks and Jonas get put backs out of some Andrea misses ( too many , I know ) . DD is flourishing , helped by Andrea keeping a big out of the way . JC is playing great , Andrea is not a liability playing with him . Do you also realize that of the 5 players with most minutes played ( DD , AB , JC , JV and AJ ) only AJ has a better +/- ( -4 for AJ , -6 for AB ) and the top three 5 players units ( all with pluses ) have AJ , AB , DD , JC in it ? Aren’t those players playing well together ? What if in the near future a 5 players unit with AB ,DD and JV becomes the top unit for us ( not knowing who the PG and SF will be ) , playoffs here we come .

          • Destro

            problem is the reason arent “whatever”…When ur work ethic is a reason you’re regressing thats quite an issue… 

      • Destro

        Because it IS his fault…hes the only one not improving…

      • pran

        stop crying. eat some primo pasta.

        • Lorenzo

          If you have nothing positive to offer to the conversation, don’t say anything.

        • Jhszxc

          And you’ll be rigid like pasta…

        • Raghibismael

          eat some curry.paki.

          • Destro

            mods ip ban….

          • pran

            good one.

            • Raghibismael

              you dumb paki, go fuck your cousin.

      • Jhszxc

        Last game they’ve won, but Barg still sucks…

  • cesco

    The reason Andrea is needed on the starting unit is the lack of 3 points shooting by the wingers which would allow , if Andrea is not here , for the second big of the other team to stay at home and wait for DD and Lowry to come crashing into them as well as negating chances for offensive rebounds by our team . Another reason is that Amir/Davis cannot create their own shot whereas Andrea can . A third reason is that Andrea is perhaps the best one on one defender the team has . A fourth reason is the fouls problems if Davis/Amir and JV are on the starting unit which will cause rotational discontinuity . And I forget several other reasons .

    • The Truth

       I assume you slipped the thing about being the best one on one defender the team has in there for a bit of comedy.

    • Lorenzo

      Have you seen Bargnani try to play one-on-one defense? His legs start twitching back and forth just begging to be broken and he flails his arm in the other player’s face like it’s going to throw him off.

      He doesn’t have any lateral quickness on defense. Shifting his feet to mimic the opposing player’s feet is something that’s clearly difficult for him. You couldn’t even say that he’s a ‘good’ defender.

  • NyAlesund

    There is only one big problem, who takes his place effectively? AB despite all is a facilitator. I mean, when he standings on three point line allow DD, KL or whoever wants to drive in the paint with more space because every team keeps an eye on him. In addition the AB’s ability to create an own shot is remarkable, in driving penetration in driving catch and shot and with mid-range shot.

    In the Raptors’ roster we don’t find any players with these characteristic (ED or AJ) and this can be cause a negative effect on offensive plays. Imagine ED on the floor, even if he stays behind the arc the opposite defender gives him 3 meters to crowd the paint area with negative impact on DD and KL plays. Even for AJ. I would agree to put AB in the second unit if the team had someone similar to him or at least with a recognisable offensive talent.

    So, until we can’t find a valid substitute, we have to rely on him. I can’t think he is this player, so awful to be real, but the time will take him back the lost confidence.

    • Nilanka15

      It’s possible for Lowry/DeRozan to drive with the big men playing down low.  We don’t need our big men parked behind the 3 point line to properly facilitate the drive and kick game.  Davis/Amir are capable of stepping out and hitting a 10-15 footer. 

      • NyAlesund

         C’mon. How many jumpers you had seen from ED and AJ? Do you think that those to guys are confident enough to take these kind of shots down the stretch? AB is struggling and honestly I think is going to improve his perfromance.
         So, for me AB even at 75% offensively speaking is better than AJ and ED.

        • Nilanka15

          This idea that 2 big men in the paint will “clog up” the lane is a complete fallacy.  It’s how the sport of basketball has been played for 100 years. 

          A 7 footer parked behind the 3 point line is a deviation of basic basketball principles…NOT a fundamental strategy that needs to be maintained.

          Do you think we’ll hear Kobe complaining that Howard/Gasol play too close to the basket?

          • Destro

            Its a bullshit defensive front to save face with this player….When Howard/Bynum and Gasol play in the paint,they still clear out and give KObe space to operate when the play is runned for him….

            • Dan

               plus it should increase the offensive rebounding.

          • p00ka

            The comment about ED (you gotta be fn kidding) and Amir being of much use stepping out for 10-15 footers, was laughable, but someone already said that. I’ll comment on this post though.

            You suggest the game, from a fundamental strategy view, is no different now than it was 100 yrs ago? LOL. Every sport evolves, whether it be a result of rule changes (hello 3 pt line, etc), size & athleticism of players, different offensive/defensive schemes, or a multitude of other reasons. The 3 pt line itself created a huge change in even very fundamental strategies of the game, and that only started 40 yrs ago, never mind 100. The game is constantly evolving. Some people’s views evolve with it, some don’t. NBA coaching and their strategies do.

            If we had Howard/Gasol, we might be having a different conversation, but we don’t. Aside from that, you’re Lakers- Gasol/Howard (or Bynum) example isn’t a good one to use when discussing no ill effects of having 2 bigs playing primarily in the paint. They DON’T have 2 bigs primarily playing in the paint. Last season, 62% of Gasol’s FGAs were jump shots, from which he had a 40% FG%. This year 61% of his FGAs are jump shots, from which he has a FG% of 31%. In both cases, about half of those jump shots are from 16 ft out. Still think the Lakers aren’t using a 7 footer outside to spread the floor, even despite his jump shooting percentages being not good?

            Other examples of teams avoiding 6 bigs in the paint and using a big to spread the floor? How about starting with the last 2 NBA champs?
            – Miami- they don’t even play with a traditional 5, but the guy who plays the 5 the most- Bosh last year, 60% jump shots, with 60% of those from 16 ft and out.
            – Dallas- nuf said

            – Boston- even KG plays outside a lot. last year, 78% jump shots, 53% of those from 16 ft and out

            – Lakers- done that one already

            That’s the last 5 ships. the 6th last ship, Spurs 2006-07, they had 2 x 3 pt shooting bigs coming off the  bench, combining for 28 minutes per game.

            When talking about parking 2 bigs in the paint, vs having one on the floor that is quite capable of drawing defenders out and spreading the floor, shall we talk about successful teams in the current world, or should we talk about the fundamentals of the game 100 years ago?

            There’s lots to criticize in AB’s game right now, but to suggest the Raps should go back to 100 year old fundamentals is ludicrous. That’s not how teams are winning ships in today’s world. The winning teams have a big that plays outside a lot, and the only player the Raps have that’s capable of drawing bigs out is AB, like it or lump it.

            • cesco

               You just got a lesson of bball101 from pooka , admit it .

              • Truuth

                you have no papers.

              • Destro

                you fantasize about tongue kissing Bargnani,admit it…

            • Nilanka15

              Good examples above, but I wouldn’t say that’s the norm.  Even with Gasol taking jumpers, he spends a lot of his time in the paint (as do Bosh, KG, etc.).  Even though they’re not 3 point shooters, they don’t clog the lane.

              Anyways, the point made above is that Bargnani needs to be in the starting lineup to create “space” for the wings to drive.  Simply not true.  Any PF is capable of doing so in the 10-15 foot range, as long as he’s capable of hitting open looks.

              • CJT

                It appears to be the norm for Championship teams.  Your point about 10 – 15 foot range I think is valid as well, but do you think that other power forward is currently on the team?  Amir maybe, but Ed is certainly not able to provide that at this point in his development. 

                • Nilanka15

                  I’d most certainly lean towards Amir over Davis, while admitting that neither are the long-term solution in the starting lineup.

                  I’m just saying that at 2-6 (and even our 2 wins not being overly impressive), it couldn’t hurt to change things up a little, even if it’s temporary, just to send a message to the roster, and hoping that some use it as a wake-up call.

                • p00ka

                  That would be a reasonable discussion, but isn’t even remotely close to what you were saying.

                • P00ka_is_a_fish

                  Shutup fish.

                • CJT

                  I don’t disagree with you. 

              • p00ka

                Well, as CJT also reiterated, evidence is clear that in the current NBA, having a big that can stretch the floor, and I mean from beyond the 10-15 ft range you’re repeating, is the norm for Championship teams in today’s NBA, which is the direction you’d like the team headed to, right? Since you came back with the 10-15 ft range again, please note that I consistently specified “16 ft and out” stats to point out that every one of the last 6 ships were won with a big that shoots a significant amount from distance, which is not within ED’s or Amir’s wildest dreams at this point. Heck, ED’s not near ready to be counted on for even that 10-15 range.

                At the end of the day, this has all been in response to your “This idea that 2 big men in the paint will “clog up” the lane is a
                complete fallacy.  It’s how the sport of basketball has been played for
                100 years.”

                The simple fact is that basketball has evolved from 100 years ago, even from 10 years ago for heaven’s sake, and in today’s NBA, Championships are being won with bigs that draw bigs out and UNCLOG the paint. 2 bigs in the paint worked 100 years ago, but it doesn’t win today. The “complete fallacy” is on you, mon ami.

                • Nilanka15

                  My “2 bigs in the paint” comment wasn’t meant to be a literal description of having 2 Shaqs in the paint (obviously, no team is built this way).  I do however consider Bosh, KG, Gasol, etc. to be “in the paint”.

                  Do they step out and hit shots?  Yes, of course.  But they’re not 3 point threats in the form of Bargnani, Dirk, Anderson, Frye, etc.

                  In my original comment above, I was responding to the idea that Bargnani is a “must have” in the starting lineup in order to create space for the wings.  Again, complete fallacy.  Such space can indeed be achieved if Amir/Davis were to fill in for Bargnani in the starting unit.

                  My apologies for the “100 year” hyperbole above.

            • CJT

              Great post.  Interesting analysis provided.

      • Scarsville

        you’re kidding right???  

        • Nilanka15

          Absolutely not.  I’ll take an Amir/Davis 10-15 footer over a Bargnani pump-fake-lean-into-his-defender-22-footer all day, any day.

          • what the

            what about a gary forbes mid range

      • Destro

        and to this point hes shooting 36 %
        We get no advantage from his shooting,what purpose does it serve then ?

        • FAQ

          I suspect Bargs is psychologically depressed having to come to work with a bunch of shitty players who don’t understand the game of basketball.  After 7 years of playing on a downhill team would depress anybody … JUST LOOK AT THE COMMENTS OF THE T.H.F.’s on this ratshit lil’ forum..!!!

          • j bean

            Divide and conquer. If you want to run for president of the barg’s fan club against Cesco you’ll have a good chance

    • Jhszxc

      What about the trade?

  • j bean

    Whether he starts or comes off the bench isn’t as much of an issue with me as his playing time. Most of his missed shots turn the ball over to the opposition and he has a ridiculously high number of missed shots per game. The more court time he sees the more missed shots. Bargnani is playing in the NBA because of his scoring ability. The way he is scoring now makes me think he is homesick and his dream of being a superstar is over. He could already be on the downside of his career with his best years behind him. 
    The Raptors don’t owe him anything when it comes to playing time or being a starter. If he was playing for a top contending team, and was giving the production he is giving the Raptors he wouldn’t be seeing the floor.

  • Daniel

    Dumb idea to generate viewership. The next scapegoat after Jose is Andrea. Nice.

    • BrainColangelo

      Jose is a very good backup.  Everyone agrees.  Few agree that he’s a very good starter because he is not durable enough and does not play enough defence.  But he is a less flawed (and less talented and therefore frustrating) player than Bargnani.  Both of them would look better surrounded by players who accentuate their talents and minimize their flaws.

      Bargnani in particular needs to get the ball to be effective.  He would be a killer working with D12 or Steve Nash, he could play a useful role on a team like Memphis.  He would be better coming off the bench, scoring at will, playing spotty defence and finishing games when his scoring is needed.  I would start Amir over him.

      Jose could start for the Raptors but Lowry does more with his defence to get them easy looks (fast break points, possessions before the opposing D is set, slashing) than Jose does with his passing.

    • Dan

       I think BC is a terrible GM and most of the mess of this roster is on him. Since I don’t see him stepping down or being fired any time soon the blame next will fall on the players and coaches. Andrea is a talented player. He can play a lot better then he is right now. That’s why fans get pissed at him. He played with a different intensity last year and was really aggressive showed good offensive instincts of when to drive or when to pull up and shoot. This year he is back to deciding what he is going to do before the ball even reaches him. Doesn’t post up as often and just in general seems disinterested.

    • Jhszxc

      Barbnani will Raptors cost $33M in the next 3 years, if they don’t trade him. For his work and productivity he’s not up to that kind of money.
      Calderon’s $10.5M this year is too much too and they have to trade him or loose like Bosh.

  • Gregast

    One point I’d like to insert. Chris Humphries turned himself from a wandering, wondering big into a focussed rebounding machine once he was told how to do his job. Now he’s a solid NBA starter with Brooklyn and Toronto is wondering why he was cast aside so early in his career.

    My point? My point is Dwane had Bargs focussed and effective this time a year ago and I’ll bet he will reboot the big guy again. Andrea’s actually not a bad one on one defender – just teach him how to read situations where he needs to rotate to help others.

    This time last year we were all on the Dwane BandWagon ( the DwBW ) and in my opinion he’s probably forgotten more about round ball than I’ll ever learn so I’m going to let him do his job and cheer loudly when he does.

    • sleepz

      I love the popular “he’s a good one on one defender”.

      “Coach, he can stay in front of his man (sometimes). Just don’t ask him to help, rotate, hege properly, find his man in recovery, rebound or understand defensive positioning and it’s all good.” lol

      Square peg meet round hole. Should have posted the Chisholm article and spent more time talking about that then trying to find the silver lining in a player that doesn’t care about the game.

  • enlightenment

    good article.

    two things: I wouldn’t separate calderon and Amir. If one is starting, id start the other. If the prior is on the bench, then so is the latter.

    Id prefer Ed – JV and Amir – Bargnani, over any other combination of bigs.
    Ed – Amir is very redundant. JV – Bargnani is too much for JV to handle (in terms of help defense, Bargs is a crap rotator and help defender.) I think Ed as the low post pivot with great help defense works well with the constant activity and PnR of JV. Bargnani needs the lengthier defender with him though, and that would be Amir.

  • Tinman

    Bagnani would be the ideal scorer off the bench, ride him when he is hot.

    But it doesn’t seem feasable with this current lineup. The best option I see would be starting Amir with Jonas but we could have our two starting bigs on the bench midway through first quarter because of foul trouble.
    Suggesting Davis just doesn’t make sense. I have hopes for the guy but he hasn’t shown that he’s ready.

     

  • Jamshid

    Lowry DD
    Ed BigVal Fields

    Or 
    Lowry DD
    Amir BigVal Fields

    I really like to see where the scoring would come from in these starting line ups. Also, I like to see how Ed and Amir can handle the starting PF of other team. I know this will not happen but if Casey wants to shut his critics, then he should really do the move. 
    I am willing to bet everyone will be asking for AB at starting line up in 2 weeks. This is not because AB is such a great player but more because both Amir and Ed suck and are not starting caliber player in this league.

    • Nilanka15

      Amir is a better player than Davis IMO, but I agree that both aren’t starter material.

      Moving Bargnani to the bench would simply be a desperation move worth trying, because the current rotation isn’t working.

    • The Truth

       Where is the scoring coming from in our current starting lineups? It’s certainly not from Andrea clanging his way to 10-15 points on 36% shooting.

      • 2damkule

        ah, but y’see, he’s so deadly from outside that teams MUST gameplan to stop him.  in fact, if you watch closely, they often send 3 or 4 guys out to to the perimeter to stand beside him while he coyly does sweet fuck all.  bargs’ mere presence on the floor creates massive amounts of space all over, so all the other raps – vastly inferior in offensive skill to bargs, mind you – have the requisite 4-18 feet of space in which to operate.  all those bodies beating the shit out of derozan on his drives are mere figments of our imagination, as it’s well known that every defender is part of an elaborate quintuple-team on bargs, 27 feet from the hoop.  if you watch the game in super slow-mo, you’ll sometimes see midgets in camoflage (hardwood-themed bodysuits…it’s really quite precious) wrapped around his legs…that’s why he seems so slow out there.  c’mon, you guys.

        • what the

          I hear you Cesco

        • cesco

          A tad exaggerated , a tiny wee bit sarcastic but you sum up pretty well the importance of having Andrea on the starting unit .

          • 2damkule

            holy sweet fuckity fuck…

    • Jhszxc

      The scoring will come from Lowry and DD; Barg is only waisting too many shots…

      • Jamshid

        I don’t think that would be enough. As I said earlier, I have no problem with moving AB to the bench or trading him or … if we had players who are starter caliber type. Neither Amir or Ed can hold their own against the big starting PFs in this league.

        All this discussions about AB is irrelevant and only deter the attention from the real problem that is BC. Our problems do not start and end with AB. It starts and end with BC and has mistakes over the past 7 years.

        Look at some facts:
        First round draft picks did not pan out the way we were expecting.
        2nd round picks were all bust.
        FA signings ( Kapano, Hedo, Keliza, …) were all ad signing.
        Our suppose inside presence in European basketball talent evaluation did not even lead to one decent player.
        Team has no assets to trade.
        There is NO REAL Financial Flexibility ( not the fake stuff that Matt52 was bragging about all summer trying to convince everyone HOW GREAT BC is) for us to sign FAs.
        The list goes on and on and on … Now, some fans want to talk about AB and if he should be coming from bench or start or … like this answer to the problems of this team !!!

    • Bennyscott9

      Why fields. He is not shown that he is capable of be a starter. i’d go with LK

  • Thetruth

    This is an absolutely stupid suggestion. Bargnani barely shows any motivation to exert real effort as a starter (and he possibly still considers himself the face of this franchise) and you propose we move him to the bench? Beyond stupidity. The guy needs to be traded because even if he explodes somewhere else, he’s never going to reach his full potential here. Both sides need to move on. 

    • Destro

      Breugh hes not going to explode anywhere unless its at a pasta buffet table…

  • JCRapsFan

    I wouldn’t make any moves until Lowry is back, but I do agree that putting AB on the bench could work out.  Having a second unit that can actually do some damage is worth considering.  Let’s have a good starting unit that plays hard defense against the better players of teams and then have a second unit that can score some points instead of just providing our starters a breather. 

    Also it doesn’t need to be for the whole game, just to start and hopefully get some good leads for the Raptors going into the 4th.  It’s unfortunate but outside of Lowry and maybe Derozan the team is full of hot and cold shooters.  If Casey splits the units evenly for the first 3 quarters and then rides the hot hands in the 4th quarter the games might actually start working in the Raptors favor.

    There are a lot of 8 to 10 mil players coming off the bench in this league, so if it works, I don’t see people complaining…  But thats only if it works.

    I would see the units as follows:

    Starting Unit:  Lowry, DD, Kleiza (has some size and can space the floor), AJ, JV
    Second Unit:  Calderon, AA (Ross if he gets better), Fields, AB, AG
    Small Ball Second Unit:  Lucas, Calderon, AA, AB, ED

    • Tinman

      with your starting unit you would have Amir and Jonas on the bench with two fouls by the 5 minute mark half the time.

      • FAQ

        … and by the 5 minute mark of the first quarter, Casey would be forced to put in the second platoon with Bargs, Jose, etal… every game..!!!

  • 2damkule

    fuckit, move bargs to the bench, if it makes sense to bring amir & ed off the bench as well, start gray at the 5 & JV at the 4 for all it matters…or kleiza at the 4 against teams that don’t have a traditional 4/5 pairing (i.e. that play small).  this is a dead horse we’re beating here, people.  moving bargs to the bench doesn’t solve anything other than yet again putting him in an easier position to do the one & only thing he (purportedly) does so GD well (btw – considering how he’s struggled, why is it simply assumed that playing primarily against backups would all of a sudden turn him into some highly efficient scoring machine – many teams…raps included…have good post defenders coming off the bench – so why would scoring be easier for him…he’d be an even bigger target for the defense to focus on, no?)?

    far too many in the republic have taken on doug smith’s refrain that andrea is ‘unique’ & believe that ‘unique’ necessarily has to mean something positive.  charles manson was pretty fucking unique too (not to mention better at what he set out to do than is bargs at the moment).  ‘unique’ means fuck all.

    the only move left to make that will actually bring about a positive net change is to remove him from the picture entirely.  let’s not worry about the mediocre return the raps would see in trade, because it really doesn’t fucking matter anymore. 

    SIDE BAR: why does it seem to be his most ardent fans who feel that they wouldn’t get anything substantive in return, and thus, shouldn’t consider trading him?  i mean, shouldn’t his most faithful fans, who continue to support him & think he’s much better than he’d have us believe, think he’d return a princely sum?  is that one of them pardox thingys (i.e. ‘BARGNANI IS AWESOME // YOU CAN’T TRADE HIM, HE WOULDN’T BRING BACK ANYTHING OF VALUE!!  DERP DERP DERP!!’).

    anyway…since trading him or moving him from the starting lineup (or – GASP! – amnestying him) are all equally palatable to our high-collared genius, i really can’t see much changing.  he’s either going to become ’13-game bargnani’ full-time (~3% chance), or continue on as he’s exhibited for the majority of his career (97% chance), until his time here is done, and more years – and perhaps a quality coach (someone has to be the scapegoat – HEY SAM!) – have been wasted.

    • Nilanka15

      lol, awesome post.  Why’d it take you so long to write it?  😉

      • 2damkule

        mainly because i’m loathe to write anything about a season when the sample size is so small (i haven’t commented on lowry, or JV, or DD yet, at least in any meaningful way).  but bargs’ doesn’t exactly have a small sample size, and the article presents an argument many have been making for years.

    • Nilanka15

      BTW, you’re apparently just a fkn pathetic little whiney little bitch hater who suckles on his mother’s teet and lives in her basement….or something like that.

      • 2damkule

        holy shit, how’d you know?

        • Arsenalist

          Also, you’re a racist.

          • unknown guest

            I never understood that. Can anyone please explain how is/was not liking AB’s production and BC’s management racist?

            • Nilanka15

              I’ll take ownership for that one.  A few years ago, on this very message board, I suggested that the hardest/loudest Bargnani fanboys were “coincidentally” of Italian descent (i.e. Multipaul, cesco, pizzaman, Joshua Reynolds, etc.).

              In the eyes of some disillusioned youth, this observation was labelled as “racism”.  Since then, some fanboys have been more than willing to apply the “racist” tag to any critique on Bargnani….and here we are today.

              • unknown guest

                Ah! Thanks!

              • CJT

                Do you consider the never ending pasta jokes racist? What would happen if the same sorts of comments were made about typical black food stereotyped foods?  Just wondering, not trying to discount what you have said, because of what the AB supporters have said in the past. 

                • Nilanka15

                  I don’t consider Italians to be a “race”, so speaking in terms of semantics, no, I don’t think the pasta references are racist.  However, I do think they’re culture-based stereotypical generalizations. 

                  But Bargnani agreeing to film a Primo commercial only perpetuates the stereotype.  And using your example above, if a black player decided to star in a “soul food” commercial, would it be in poor taste to make references to said food?  Under those circumstances, I personally don’t think so, but I know society is overly sensitive when it comes to these matters.

                • Nilanka15

                  I don’t consider Italians to be a “race”, so in terms of semantics, no, I don’t consider the pasta references to be racist.  Cultural stereotype yes, but racist no.

                  However, Bargnani agreeing to film a Primo commercial only perpetuates this stereotype.  Using your example above, if a black player were to star in a “soul food” commercial, then any references to said food would be somewhat expected IMO.

                  I realize that sensitivity to racial issues is a much bigger monster than what’s discussed here, but just my 2 cents.

                • Nilanka15

                  Sorry for the double post.

                • CJT

                  I agree on the race thing, just wanted to see what your view of that was.  I mean it’s not as if Billy Dee Williams did a hole slew of Colt 45 malt liquor commercials………never mind.  I guess my reation to this is more to do with the total lack of creativity and/or originality that is displayed.  But that is another argument i suppose. 

                • CJT

                  I don’t agree that by doing a commercial it opens up a race or nationality to ridicule or whatever you want to call it.  Is it ok to make comments because a black woman does a popeyes commercial or like I said generalize about other because a celebrity does a malt liquor campaign?  I don’t think it should.  But small minded bloggers may disagree.  (not talking about you just saying)

                • Destro

                  read a back on racism….nobody is using ethnic terms OTHER than you mad euro queers calling pran derogative slurs…..referencing pasta is cism smh….

                • Lorenzo

                  Lol this is really golden coming from you. Please son, dont embarass yourself…

                • CJT

                  You use them all the time.  And you claim other are racist when they don’t agree with your opinion of Demar.  How do you read a back?  Like I said before go get you highschool diploma.

              • Raghibismael

                own up to bein a dumb faggot.

        • cesco

          That must be Joshua Reynolds comment you replied to . Nilanka and him are not exactly lovey dovey .

      • p00ka

        Typical Nilanka quoting things out of the context they were stated in, or perhaps being too fn dumb to grasp the context in the first place.

        • Nilanka15

          Quoting out of context?  Yes.
          Original context grasped?  Yes.

          Ignoring the above 2 to zing a msg board douche?  Yes.

          Thanks for acknowledging my work!

    • Truthkiller

      Preach

    • truth be told

      +1

    • Bennyscott9

      gray is junk why would you start him

  • Kay Nti

    Keep him as a starter. Bargs will be just fine…

    • Jhszxc

      By earning $33M this and the next two years and play woman basketball on the man’ team.

      • Jhszxc

        Sorry to any WNBA player, with his current shooting percenage he’d sit on the banch.

      • Jhszxzc

        Sorry to any WNBA player, with his current shooting percentage he’d sit on the bench.

  • RapthoseLeafs

    Great article Garrett – a sensible discussion to what ails Bargs and this team.
    .

    At this time – especially with Kyle out (and Fields/Anderson to a lesser extent) – the Secondary lacks scoring punch, as evidenced by one game in particular. But so is our (overall) Front Court – ranked 24th in scoring. I realize Andrea makes the biggest contribution to that low ranking, but so have Amir & Davis contributed to this situation. Our SF spot compounds this, with a ranking of 28th. What’s strange about Andrea’s numbers, is that he’s shooting better from the perimeter, then inside (.361 and .357). I highly doubt that latter number stays this low – it goes against his past 4 year history.

    Comparing last year’s numbers, AJ’s fg% has dropped from .576 – .490 , while Ed has dropped from .513 to .464. Granted, these are early numbers, but if we’re going to analyze what’s wrong with AB, we have to hold that to others as well.
    .

    Even when taking into account Andrea’s rebounding number drop, Raptors have dropped as a team. So has their shooting percentages – 3 pt excepted. In fact, the team drop-off (as a whole) seems to be mirroring Andrea’s drop.
    .

    Part of wondering what’s up with Bargs, goes to the matter of his conditioning. Did he take too much time off, over-doing the calf injury recovery time? Is he in shape – a crucial element to his game. In the previous season, he started off very well, as we all remember, having played with Italy during the summer. This season, he supposedly gained weight – another issue that I wonder about.

    As I recall, when Andrea played with the Italian team, he didn’t start. But he still played 30+ minutes, and he finished the game. Is this a recipe for gaining the most out of AB? Can Raptors start games with a combination of Jonas/Amir/Ed in a random combination based on opponent? I’d be concerned how the team starts out. As much as we’ve complained about the starting off bad phenonmenom, the team seems to have turned the corner on this issue – albeit, with limited statistical basis.

    .

    For me, I think we need to let this ride a little longer. The truth is, despite Andrea’s woes, Raptors could be 4 – 4 for the season. And right or wrong, Toronto is only 2 games out of 8th place. Personally, I’d let this team get through this. That being said, Casey has to temper Bargs – less minutes, and convince him the benefit of being a better decoy. And run more plays inside. Is it me, or does it seem like Andrea has had good inside position, and has been looked off. Does he pout and decide that 3’s are his only chance at getting his shots. All that said, and despite the last game, AB’s numbers have been tracking better in the last 5 games.

    .

    Maybe the Italian coach had it right. Be interesting to find out.

    .

     

    • Destro

      smh @ that last paragraph…

  • Canadian Paul

    I doubt Bargnani keeps his FG% at under 0.400 for much longer. He’s actually at his worst TS% for his 7 years in the league. As much as those 13 games last were unsustainable last year, so are his current percentages. His shots will start dropping… some.

    But the real problem is all the intangibles. The Raps are 11 ppg worst with his on the court this season, and this is sustainable. It is backed up by numbers from previous seasons (except for that 13-game stretch).

    Trading him is not an option at this point, since he’ll probably bring back peanuts.

    • what the

      it’s so easy to tell the fan boys

  • Scottbbaird

    Three words: spreading the floor.

    • Destro

      Three words : spreading his legs

      • p00ka

        Despite your internet bravado, I’m not surprised your gay, but I would have bet you only like black butts.

        • Nilanka15

          A new low….even for your standards.

          • p00ka

            When it comes to Destro, when in Rome……….

            • CJT

              Or you could rise above and be better than an internet troll like him.  Just saying.

            • Destro

              IF you have an issue you’d like to settle just hit up my email breh…

          • what the

            what about your standards for gary forbes

        • Jamshid

          You should not be allowed to post here !! Your ignorance and your stupidity is shameful.

          • cesco

            What about Destro and his continuous sexual innuendos regarding Andrea  , should he be allowed to post here ? .

            • Destro

              These innuenods dont exist like his rebounding prowess…..

        • Destro

          yet your following around my scent like a ghey…

          • CJT

            more like flies.

    • what the

      t hear that from Cesco every fn day

  • FAQ

    Freudian analysis:  T.H.F.’s still feel the pain of losing their first love, Bosh, and nobody can replace him.. particularly an Italian cracker.  Such neurotics have no empathy capability.. they’ve been jilted and they are looking for somebody to attack.. and conveniently, it’s Bargs.  So obvious.

    • Dan

       I thought Bosh was overrated too. He is now in a position that suits him best. A team with him as a#1 was not going to go far. I will say Andreas natural skills at least on the offensive side is a more talented player then Bosh ever is or will be, but Bosh is a much harder worker and had a bigger drive to be good and made way more use out of the skills that he had and made himself a better player. I’m sure everyone will call me stupid and boast the all start appearances. Bosh earned those and made him self a very good player. Andrea if he had the same drive and work ethic has Dirk type skills. Bosh was always very mechanical and not fluid on offense. He worked hard and developed a great mid range shot and became very effective when he attacked quickly and use limited ball handling to get by his man. Which is similar to what Demar is learning to do now. Andrea is of the vince carter mold. Not on his level. Vince good of been in the kobe range had he had the drive.

    • j bean

      Don’t give up your day job.

  • Gruvy3

    I think that one of things you also missed in this article (which I think was great) is that AB works better with Jose. And if you look at some other teams and the 6th men they had coming off the bench its clearly an extremly important role. I think one of the best 6th men I woukd like to compare this situation to should AB go to the bench is stop comparing him to dirk and think more toni kukoc who in my opinion was a huge piece of the bulls championship a 6″11 3 point threat. I think bargs would be great in the 6th man role, his instant offence of the bench would be huge for the raps and his confidence (who on another teams second unit could possibly defend him?) And a 6th man of the year award would be amazing for him.

  • Destro

    Would anybody care to read me Andre Dummonds PER 36 numbers ?

    We coulda had a front court of JV and Drummond for the next 10 yrs…smh
    I’ll never get over that foul up….we looked him off because of Trashnani…

    It will hurt alot more when Ab ios traded this year,then it completely undermines the draft we had…

    • Nilanka15

      Colangelo’s reasoning for passing on Drummond:

      “There’s a checklist: talent, physical tools, basketball IQ, how they
      perform, how we anticipate they’ll perform. Character. Emotional
      make-up. Marketability. Each component is part of the process. The
      toughest is what’s inside a player. You can’t see the heart, the
      emotional aspect of things.

      Picking eighth, I passed on somebody I
      consider a top-five talent in the draft because we felt like he didn’t
      have the right mental makeup. I passed on someone we thought was a
      top-three physical specimen because we felt he wasn’t the right fit for
      our team and didn’t have the right mental makeup.”

      http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/article/1287352–how-do-professional-teams-draft-the-right-athletes

    • p00ka

      1. Per 36 numbers of a player playing 15 MPG, in 9 games, against bench players is damn near useless. Lord, if you looked at Arujo’s Per 36 for his rookie year, you’d thing he was a sure bet double double machine in the future.

      2. All evidence shows that you’re young enough to still even be holding on to a G.I. Joe character doll’s name, so perhaps you can be forgiven for not realizing it almost always takes a few years before you know how drafted players will turn out, and that especially holds true when there are big red flags being waved about a players mental make-up, which was on everybody’s notes about Drummond, btw.

      Time will tell, but BC wasn’t the only one who considered him a big risk.

      • Destro

        Araujo didnt show anything in his rookie year he could be a dominant C…Drummond has.

        Oh and your still a faggot of immense proportions…

    • CJT

      I agree, he has dominated with the Piston’s helping them to a 1 and 8 record.  Great point.

      • Destro

        Read that to urself and tell me where it is you fcked up….

    • FAQ

      … and you can’t do an fng thing about it other than b!tch incessantly like a jerkoff teen fan..!

  • ckh26

    One area we don’t examine with the ongoing Bargnani Inquiry
    is that the position he plays, Power Forward, is not what wins playoff rounds
    and eventually championships.

     

    The dynasty type teams such as the Celtics in the Bird era
    won with a SF (Bird) and a dominant Centre (Parrish). The “Showtime Lakers” the
    Celtics dance partners in the finals for all those years showed up with Magic
    Johnson (SF/SG) and Kareem at centre. The Bulls won with Jordan (SG) and Pippen
    (SF). The Lakers part deux won with Kobe (SG) and Shaq at Centre.

     

    The only anomaly to this is the Spurs with Tim Duncan being
    the lead dog but with lots of help from Ginobli and Parker, SF and PG
    respectively, and Bargs would never be confused with Tim Duncan.

     

    My point is this…Bargs as a starter  or off the bench, or even amnestied will
    matter as much as boobs on a nun. To win we need to have the big dogs play at SF
    ( ouch no one really right now ) or PG (a start with Lowry) and a formidable
    centre (baby steps with JV) to get to and win in the playoffs.  The only time we were relavent in the playoffs
    was with Wince Carter at SF.  Bosh is a better
    PF than Bargs and he only got us to the playoffs.    

    • Dan

       It’s not the position so much as the talent overall. Miami heat won without a sf. Cause they had wade a talented Guard. Pistons won without a great player at any spot. Just good ones at all 5 and at the time prince the sf was the weakest. Jazz made the finals twice with Malone and Stockton and good role players. No strong center or small forward. Andrea is more of a Steve Novak (floor spacing big) Due to his draft status and lack of talent on the team he is expected to be a #1 option.

      • Dan

        If Andrea were just two inches shorter and not actually 7 Feet he would be just another average player. If you added two more inches to Ryan Anderson he would be getting all star consideration for his numbers. Being 7 feet lowers expectations. Hence Hibbert being an all star last year on 12 points and 8.8 rebounds. That is why they got rid of center from the all star and now have three forwards.

    • EmarErozan

      Kevin McHale was a pretty good PF. If Magic was SF then was Worthy the PF?

      Your idea that PF doesn’t win championships only works when you change history, but in recent history the PFs have all been pretty good (not always the best player on a championship team but better than Bargnani for sure):
      – bosh/Lebron
      – Nowitski
      – gasol
      – Garnett

    • EmarErozan

      Also, I’d say that Magic, Lebron, Bird and Pippen were all point forwards.

      Ginobili, Kobe and Jordan were all SGs and the best PG of that era was Isaiah Thomas and otherwise those teams did not have traditional PGs or very good ones. Was Tony Parker ever a top 5 PG when the Spurs were winning it all?

      Sounds like we need a point forward. Let’s hope we tank and pick Andrew Wiggins first overall.

  • Ciro Solate

    Bargnani who?

  • p00ka

    Here’s a consideration toward thoughts of not starting AB. This year, even with the terrible overall shooting percentages, in the 1st quarter, as a starter, his FG% = 45.5, 3P%= 58.3, eFG%= 53.4

    The drastic drop after the 1st quarter may have something to do with his conditioning? His conditioning may have something to do with the calf re-hab program the team had him on, in place of basketball training over the summer?

    Maybe it’s still a little early, after 8 games, to be tossing him out with the bath water. There’s 74 more games to go.

    • p00ka

      PS. that’s not consistent with his history. 2 years ago, his shooting percentages rose, across the board, quarter to quarter from 1 to 4

      • Brian Black

        If its conditioning, then couldn’t the Raptors use that as an excuse to cut his minutes? Cut his minutes until his %’s get up to something that equals a positive contribution, and go from there. 

        • p00ka

          agreed

  • 511

    With Lowry out for another couple weeks as well as Fields and Anderson out for however long that’ll be, it’d be nice if he’d just wake the f up for a month or two. We could use some of that 13 game magic dust right about now. 

  • RapthoseLeafs

    Grange said it the best in his latest post:

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/2012/11/13/grange_nba_whats_wrong_with_bargnani/

    Tim Chisolm on the other hand, just regurgitated a past post (2 years ago – as stated above). I sometimes wonder if he’s the anti-Doug Smith. The latter can be a homer – although he does provide some insight into the Raptors – while Tim brings it 180 degrees. I think he’s been mesmirized by all the Toronto sport play-off games he’s dreaming of.
    .

    Suffice to say, until we have Lowry back, with Jose coming off the Bench, to go along with some help on the SF spot, judging this team (or specific players), is premature.
    .

    Speaking of Jose, I’m surprised how little attention he got, after that game of his. All this Barg hate/love overshadowed one of JC’s greatest performances. He single handedly righted the ship (after a Casey pep talk), and led the Raps to this ugly, but surprising win.

    Time to focus a little on Jose, and the professional he is. That’s what we should be talking about. I’d like to keep him – especially if we retain kami-kazi Kyle (K3). As to what price that would be, I have no idea. Sure would make for a good debate.

    On a Lowry note, any word on when he’s due back?

    .

    • p00ka

      They say another 1-2 weeks

  • ZZ

    If we move Bargs to the bench, we should try Kleiza in the starting PF spot.

    Gives him more of a similar role to his time in the Olympics and at least he rebounds when he’s cold.

  • RapthoseLeafs

    As per Doug,

    “Kyle Lowry will miss another week or two with a bruised cuboid in his
    ankle, Alan Anderson will be sidelined three to six weeks with a
    partially torn plantar fascia in his foot and Landry Fields will be out
    indefinitely after he had surgery to move a nerve near his left elbow.”

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/basketball/nba/article/1288260–raptors-starting-point-guard-kyle-lowry-expected-to-be-out-another-week-or-two

    .

  • dribbles

    Forget the bench. Bargs needs a change of scenery, and this exhausted fan base needs the same damn thing.

    To this day, BC refers to Bargs as “an enigma.” An enigma, as in nobody knows what to expect from him because he’ll flash brilliance and/or effort for one game, and then revert to the lazy disinterested useless player the next. What kind of GM carries out a love affair with an enigma for 7 fucking seasons, especially when your team has sucked for most of that time?

    The thing I like about Chisholm’s piece is that he’s basically calling Colangelo (and I’d add Casey to the mix) on the “culture change” sales line they’ve been peddling. Either hustle and work ethic matter, or they don’t. You can’t bench Ed Davis because you don’t think he’s busting his ass enough but then leave Bargs out there when he’s contributing nothing and barely trying to boot. I’m so damn tired of the rebounding excuses him for him. To say “he’s never going to be a good rebounder” is to say he’s never going to work hard enough and/or he’s too soft to mix it up inside. His rebounding flaw is not related to skill, it’s related to his damn character. The fact that Casey of all coaches lets this slide annoys the hell out of me.

    It’s always dangerous for any team to coddle talent at the expense of accountability and a sense of fairness. It breeds resentment with other players and with fans. Bargs was never talented enough to even merit that risk. Enough.    

    • p00ka

      “coddle talent at the expense of accountability and a sense of fairness. It breeds resentment with other players and with fans.”

      Here’s how I see it, but will stand to be corrected with facts. The talk of coddling at the expense of accountability is within the fan base, with no basis for believing that the players and coaches that work with him every day in the gym feel this way. This goes for the many players and coaches that have come through the doors over those 6+ years, who it seems not one has ever spoken badly of AB “coddling”. On the current team, all visual and audio evidence that I’ve seen/heard, is that this team is very tight and supportive of each other, so it hardly seems like anybody’s breeding resentment. Perhaps you can show me different, but the only sign of resentment I see is with fans, and that only affects them, not the players.

      • j bean

        He means that most players that produce at the level AB is doing now would not be given the starting role and heavy minutes per game. His indifference when it comes to putting in the effort to rebound and his lack of effectiveness defensively are there to see for his teammates and fans. In spite of that he is out there throwing up around 20 shots a game most of which aren’t going in. If he was held accountable by having his time cut or his role changed to the bench he wouldn’t have the amount of critics that he has. Because he reminds us of a spoiled kid who is favored by his parents we want to see him given a little tough love.

      • j bean

        As far as hearing resentment from his teammates, you should know that there are guys who would like some of his heavy minutes and maybe it’s even spoken of in private but publicly they can’t show anything but the company line how he’s a great player blah, blah, blah. 

  • Vjax

    How come there is no mention (or comment) of the fact that his calf is braced up and obviously not 100%. He barely runs the floor late in games and doesn’t have the same jump to his step. As stated, last year he was excellent offensively until the injury. He already missed time this year with a strain to the same calf. If he sits out he’s soft. If he complains he’s soft. If he plays partially hurt without mentioning it (which is true form of toughing it out…as opposed to metioning it but claiming it’s no excuse) he gets knocked in every other way possible. I doubt his offensive game could suddenly plunge over a summer’s worth of Primo. Perhaps bringing him off the bench right now would be a good idea, but it’s not because Andrea Bargnani is not able to produce offensively as he once did..

    He started this season in even better overall shape than last year. If anyone needs another example of how a pro athlete could be so affected by a nagging calf problem look up: Polamalu, Troy.

  • FAQ

    Fields out indefinitely with ulnar nerve transposition surgery… recovery time?

    6-12-18 months!!!!  Damaged goods not divulged???

    Guilt was written all over Fields face as he tanked… and now he can spend quality time with his Victoria Secret squeeze… Elaine Alden… all at the expense of the suckered t.h.f.’s !!!

    • FAQ

      pssssst, Nilanka…. wanna post the above comment on the other forum… it’s your’s.

  • ozrapsfan

    Fark Andrea, he has been coddled enough, fit in or F off.
    Our BC & Co anointed franchise player is just an inefficient  scoring big man who lives on the perimeter, may as trade him for Troy Murphy and save a few bucks.

  • TheTyrant

    Is – or has ever- he been in tip-top shape? Why do I get the feeling that his inconsistency might be related to how he takes care (or doesn’t take care) of himself? Dude always looks so pasty after rebounding.

  • Jag

    Has anyone listened to FAQ? His sentiments are 100% correct on Bargnani. Bargnani would flourish in many other systems he is just emotionally drained playing uninspired ball in a losing atmosphere on a team trying to “jell” (as FAQ puts it) for 7 years and counting. It gets depressing. A change of scenery and you’ll see him showcase his true elite talents. He needs a rejuvenation.

    • EmarErozan

      No, he needs to be the fourth/fifth best player on a team and for that team to be strong enough to hide his many weaknesses.

    • EmarErozan

      FAQ is joking. He is a funny guy.

      • FAQ

        Nope…. I’m deadly serious … * * * * * … gotcha..!!!

  • EnragedLogic

    This is straight ridiculous for a number of reasons. First from a broad perspective, there are several things wrong in terms of managing people in general here. You can’t move a person with a higher skillset/ability to effect the game and who gets paid as such, and move them to the bench and expect a positive response. Anyone remember Vince Carter? Doing this may never get repaired, mine as well trade him now. Bringing it back to basketball and giving the second unit more scoring punch, there’s no logic. Our biggest problem is our 1st line can’t even score. We have poor starts and that would dig us an even bigger hole moving our only player capable of averaging 20ppg based on historical data. Even when he misses shots his presence opens up things for players like Lowry and Demar going to the lane.With Amir or Ed starting teams clog the lane and double down and we will be a perimeter oriented team with no perimeter oriented players in the 1st unit. 

    • FAQ

      Now that would pose a logistic problem for Casey….LOL

  • Raghibismael

    you dumb niggers dont get it….you win and lose as a team.point all the greasy fried food fingers you want you cunts.

  • Destro

    This idiot CJT wont get it but THIS post was actual cism…

    BAN please

  • FAQ

    Bargs to Colangelo: “Mandarmi a un altro team, idioti..!!!”

  • Colinm

    ok 1st
     Bargs off the bench I agree -as 1st option he performs better2nd trade him ok but only if we get a real starting nba player who can score and defend- preferably a vet who will give us instant reliability not necessarily a scorer but maybe a Tony Allen type or one who can play either the 2 or the 3 and IMPACT the game
    if none of these are there-DO Not trade him
    3rd
    with him on bench as 6th man then starters look like Lowry/Calderon pg – Derozen/Kleiza  sf -Anderson/Lucas at sg -jv/Gray at center and Amir/Ed Davis at the 4

    4th 2nd unit then looks like Bargs at 4 -Calderon/Lucas at pg -Ross sg- Ed Davis/Gray at the 5 -Kleiza/Anderson at the 3 or sf 

    5th
    With clarity it becomes obvious that we need to move Ed Davis trade or what ever
    so a roster spot is opened to sign a shooter/slasher  like Kim English or Andy Rautins
    we need another shooter on the bench rather than a little used Ed Davis to back up pg sg and sf 
    6th
    Ross needs floor time to develop and should be given it just like DD was given it in his rookie year

  • Colinm

    oh following my comments:
    Quincy Acy to NBdl so roster spot opens to sign a shooter like a Kim English or Andy Rautins etc

    • CJT

      That doesn’t open a roster spot.  He holds his spot regardless.

  • sonjagvrvd

    I think it’s an excellent idea. Most raptor loyalists and Italian fans over rate him.

  • Chrisbem100

    To get back to the point…