Yep.

The wonderful and talented Marc Stein (Steiny-mo, for all you BS Report listeners) had a few thoughts on the Raptors season following their heart-breaking loss to the Brooklyn Nets on Sunday. In his report, Stein argues in favor of the return of both Kyle Lowry and Dwane Casey. He didn’t give any figures on Lowry, but did peg the floor of Casey’s extension at a minimum of two seasons.

But that’s not why you clicked on the headline.

Stein goes on to mention that the Toronto Raptors will reportedly pursue unrestricted free agent Vincent Lamar Carter this off-season. That’s right. Wince may be coming back.

In his report, Stein also throws on the caveat that Carter is very happy with Dallas, and the 37-year old swingman is more than open to a second trip around the Dirkus Circus. Similarly, the Mavericks also have interest in retaining Carter, as he served as a very serviceable sixth man for the Mavs over the last three seasons. Despite his advanced age, Carter averaged 11.6 points, 3.5 rebounds and 2.6 assists per game on 53.9 TS%. He rated out at above league average in both Win Shares per 48 (0.105) and PER (15.9).

The fit for Toronto makes a lot of sense given the on-court needs. Carter is a skilled wing who can handle the ball, create off the dribble and on occasion, hop in a time-machine (powered by revving his handlebars, apparently) and dunking on fools. He’s also a smart defender who understands how to play his role in defensive schemes. And most importantly, he’s NOT JOHN SALMONS. That should be enough to win you over.

Unless of course, you’re of the mind that Vince Carter should remain banished from the Northern Realm.

I’m too young to remember the beef with Vince, although I’ve read enough Raptors’ content over the years to understand what went down. Some fault management for Vince’s departure. Some fault Vince for not being a professional with the way he went about angling for his departure. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. All I remember is that the Vince trade brought about a hilarious scenario wherein there were three Raptors players with the last name “Williams”, and a friend of mine made a rap verse about it. T’was very amusing.

Why are there three Williams on the team?/When each one is as cold as ice cream?

And by all reports, Vince has repeatedly expressed interest in making a return to the Raptors. Although he never formally apologized for the way he screwed the team (seriously, ‘Zo, 2xWilliams, a draft pick for Vince Carter is highway robbery), he’s had positive sentiments about his former franchise. In an interview with TSN in 2012, Vince said:

“If (Toronto) gave me the opportunity, I don’t even think I’d let them finish the question. Yes. I’m in,” Carter said. When asked if he could envision a potential reunion, Carter added “Could I see it? Absolutely. I’d leave that up to the franchise. It all started in Toronto, I’d be a fool to ever forget that.”

Also, earlier this year, GM Masai Ujiri admitted that El Presidente Tim Leiweke met with Vince when he was in town, and preached “open-mindedness”.

For more Vince coverage, be sure to put Blake’s excellent piece on the Relationship Between Raptors fans and Vince Carter into your eyeballs, and the Rapcast’s Vince episode into your earballs.

So what are your thoughts? Are you pro-Vince, or con-Vince(d) that he should remain exiled?

  • Azih

    Bench needs upgrade badly. Why not get Vince for the right price?

  • Nathanson17
    • Guest

      That’s the problem; some people are too young to have known about this in the first place – a point at least William concedes in his post.
      I’d prefer to move in a new direction, regardless. I don’t think a 38 year old is what this team needs.

    • Brian

      You don’t need to forget. Nobody is saying that. What you need to do is forgive, even if it’s only for your own sake.

      • Minks77

        Nope. Not gonna happen (forgiveness). That tip off to Ray Ray (on my birthday, one of the few times I’ve had bday tx ON THE DAY) was just the icing on the cake after everything that really started back in 2001. The graduation, the whispers of lazy work ethic, the longer and longer jumpers, the notorious jumpers knee, the lax D, the play acting every time he got bumped and acted like he was shot… it just kept getting worse. Then the tiff over his moms parking spot, the demands for Doctor J to be interviewed for the HC job before he’d done any real coaching anywhere, the cat and mouse gamer he played with his intentions all summer before announcing his trade demand TO THE MEDIA just before the season started… it goes on and on.

        VInce was great but he became the epitome of the spoiled prima donna NBA superstar. He sank his own trade value and pouted until the trade. Yes management has to be held accountable but guess what? They are all gone. GG, Peddie, Babcock, Smitch, KO, Hoffa, etc the franchise has FINALLY turned the corner from the nightmare of false hope and misguided expectations that arose with Vinces stardom. Like the man said: You gotta walk and don’t look back.

        • jjdynomite

          A+++++++++++++

      • Guest

        I think what’s better for my sake is a winning Raptors team not employing 37 year olds.
        But I do appreciate your concern for our well being.

    • FLUXLAND

      THIS! Treacherous MF can stay in DAL.

  • Erik Evensen

    Vince did screw us over, no mistake. Anytime a player publicly demands a trade they immediately decrease the potential return. And he did quit on the team, at least IMHO, but I don’t think it’s debatable. However I am a big proponent of redemption, atonement, and forgiveness, and I think Vince realizes his role in the events was less than laudable. So I am in favour of a return. I’m sick of Toronto hating on guys who have “jilted” us and I think it would be good for everyone; team, franchise, fans and Vince himself. At the time I was all for strapping Vince onto a rocket and firing him into the sun, but I realize that young men make stupid decisions sometimes, and holding grudges is for chumps. Like it or not, nobody gave a fuck about the Raps outside of Toronto before Vince, he put us on the map, and I respect what he did for the franchise. Even though he did screw us over in the end. So yes, give him a chance if he wants it, that’s my vote.

    • afrocarter

      Here here.

    • Kevin

      Vince is a top-notch passer. He finds Nowiztki with gorgeous passes that fly under the radar. I dislike the fade-aways because I don’t like difficult shots, but he would be a massive upgrade over Salmons. He screwed up in Toronto, but he is by all accounts a very nice guy. Eyes to the future! Do it!

    • Dave Smith

      Here’s my problem with it. I agree management sucked. I also agree 90% of the problem was management, not Vince. I also think we should stop booing the guy like a bunch of babies 10 years later. I DO however, think he quit on us. He was frustrated, sure, but you don’t take that out on the Fans ever! Period! He did. I do not think we should reward that kind of selfishness with a retired number. I also don’t think we should set the precedent that you can quit on us, publicly admit to it, and then 10 years later come back like all is forgiven.

      If as a franchise we want to stand for anything, it should be that we don’t ever forgive a quitter who disrespects the fanbase…

      • afrocarter

        Yes, let’s ensure that our franchise is known for its petty jadedness.

        • Dave Smith

          Really? How is that petty jadedness? Petty would be being pissed off over nothing. There’s very little a player could do worse to a team than Vince did. Maybe making sports bets against his team?

          • afrocarter

            Something that happened 10+ years ago can constitute as “nothing”, you know.

            • Dave Smith

              If your argument is simply just “get over it” cause it was 10 years ago, fair enough, that’s a valid argument. We can agree to disagree on that. :)

          • mike, prague

            Rudy Gay? Like poor guy, like yeah he played like ant turds, but it’s not like he gave up or anything. But his ass gets booed every game.

      • Erik Evensen

        I agree with a lot of what you say, especially the retired number. But that’s kind of why I’m advocating. I’m willing to give him a chance to earn it honestly. Believe me, I would be surprised if many people felt the depths of hatred that I did for Vince. After the NJ game where MoPete got kicked out, we recorded a number of tracks about performing shockingly violent acts on him. It got creepy. But I would hate to think that all the stupid shit I did 10 years ago hangs over my head today, and I believe that Vince knows what a shithead he was and desires a proper ending.

        • Dave Smith

          Yeah, don’t get me wrong. If we can get the guy for a reasonable price, and he comes here and plays his best while he’s here, it would go a long way to rehabilitating his legacy. That’s basically the only way I think we would consider retiring his number.

          If he’s honestly regretful for what he did, and he shows it by playing hard, I’d be willing to let the stuff he did back then go away. I’m just a bit more skeptical, however, as I think the current management only wants him back so they have an excuse to retire his number.

          It would be 100% on Vince to show the fans he’s not just back in Toronto as a gimmick, and that he really wants to contribute to our future success.

          • Erik Evensen

            Totally agree

          • mike, prague

            If he were to sign on a minimum contract, he would be worshipped.

      • dunkmycat7

        EXACTLY -on a team that plays hard ALL the time where effort is respected you don’t really wants a guy like Vince who simply does not play hard all the time. And @ 37 – probably can’t.

  • RobertArchibald

    The hatred for Vince isn’t quite as deep as it used to be for me. It makes me sick to think what would have happened had Vince been guarding JJ in the playoffs.

    I’m all for this. Assuming it’s at the right price.

  • matt

    I don’t care what happened ten years ago, this is an opportunity for a team to get a player who can fill a big void on our team by providing a veteran presence and scoring punch off the bench. Not to mention, he’s still a clutch player with the game winner he hit the other night. Oh yea, he could also be a mentor for Demar and teach him a thing or two.

    • TheSpiceTyrant

      Excellent points.

      Plus an opportunity to pad career stats as a Raptor.

    • CanadianJules

      I remember the days very clearly. If Carter comes for almost nothing… That would be a great way to give back to Raptors. I think T. Ross could make use of a guy like Carter on the team a little more that Demar.

    • Guest

      I’m pretty sure I don’t want DeMar learning anything that Vince could teach him. I like my constantly-improving-happy-in-this-city-all-star without that kind of influence.

      • matt

        I was talking strictly in a basketball sense. Why wouldnt you want Demar to improve his game on the court and learn someone who was once a superstar in the league?

        • Guest

          Because the conduct of said superstar was to actually tank his own team’s games. See Nathonson17’s post below. So I’m not sure that he’s going to teach any of our young players what it takes to be successful.
          Plus, he’s never won anything.
          Plus, he’s 37.
          Plus, in this case the learning comes at a cost – it takes a roster spot for someone who could, in my opinion, contribute more.
          Look, I get the nostalgia on here. I really do. If we sign him, I’m sure I’ll get over it in the long run. I still have his jersey in my closet somewhere. I like Raptor ball too much not to. I just think that in a year when such positive steps were taken forward this is too much like taking two steps back. We can debate Vince’s legacy without him playing for us. Let’s look to win rather than remember the times when we never did.

          • MoPeteRules

            I think the simple explanation for a large number of fans willing to embrace Vince again is this:

            Carter >> Salmons

            • BallerShotCaller

              It is not an either or choice. Vince? No!!! Salmons? No!!! Some other option? Yes!!!

      • craptor

        Give DD a bit more credit than that. I have watch both guys their entire careers as Raptors. DD has way way more heart than VC can ever dream of. I have never seen DD smiling and joking on the bench while the team was being blown out. Don’t even compare DD’s work ethic to VC’sVC’s or the level of maturity at the same age. Having made all those point, bottom line is that I don’t DD is the weak minded type that can be easily corrupted by VC, if indeed VC is a bad influence, which I also believe to be false at this stage of VC’s career. Basketball wise, I do believe VC does have something to offer DD that will help.

  • Steve

    The raptors should give rid of Dwight Buycks julyan stone john salmons chuck heyes and do there best to try and bring in vince carter Ed Davis and at least make a pitch to chandler parsons if Houston doesn’t pick up his option

    • DDayLewis

      The only reason Houston doesn’t pick up Parsons’ contract is so they can retain his restricted free agent status. He’s not going anywhere this offseason.

  • Guest

    This is a troll post, right?

  • Quest

    he would be a great backup sf. time to redeem himself as toronto is poised to be a great team in the east next year!

  • Regina Raps Fan

    Man, I was watching more Sundin in the white and blue than NBA until Vince came to town. Who knows, if it wasn’t for him, I may have completely missed the lure of the NBA. Bring him back Masai (at the right $ and if he truly wants to)

  • RPT23

    Hmm… I agree in bringing Vince back. I wasn’t a young buck when he screwed the team and heard both sides of the story. I always felt that there were three sides to the story, Vince’s vs The Media/Raptors Organizations vs “the truth” (and I don’t mean Paul Pierce). I’d welcome him back, so long as he keeps his Joey Batts beard going. :)

  • Rap fan 2

    Absolutely, once a Raptor always a Raptor. Time has great healing powers. At the time I think we had some management issues as well as some player issues. Doesn’t everyone at some point? Anyways, he can come in and mentor some of the younger guys and be a serviceable three and a vet. Having Vince back can have tie ins with the All Star Game in Toronto. Just as Joe Carter is an iconic Blue Jay, Vince Carter will be remembered forever as a Toronto Raptor. By forgiving I think you can heal the past. Welcome back Carter?

    Welcome back, your dreams were your ticket out
    Welcome back to that same old place that you laughed about
    Well, the names have all changed since you hung around
    But those dreams have remained and they’ve turned around

    Who’d have thought they’d lead ya (who’d have thought they’d lead ya)
    Back here where we need ya (back here where we need ya)
    Yeah, we tease him a lot ’cause we’ve got him on the spot
    Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back
    Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back

    Welcome back, we always could spot a friend
    Welcome back, and I smile when I think how you must have been
    And I know what a scene you were learning in
    Was there something that made you come back again

    And what could ever lead ya (what could ever lead ya)…

    Yeah, we tease him a lot (welcome back, welcome back)
    ‘Cause we’ve got him on the spot (welcome back, welcome back)
    Yeah, we tease him a lot ’cause we’ve got him on the spot
    Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back
    Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back
    Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back
    Welcome back

    • Guest

      Slam Harder by Onyx. That completes your analogy. Although I think relating Joe to Vince is not a credit to Joe.

    • Rap fan 2

      Thanks. I can feel the vibe. Slam harder, Onyx or Vince Carter…

      Who’da thought we’d need ya? Who’da thought we’d need ya?
      Back there, where we need ya? Back there, where we need ya?
      Yeah, we tease him a lot, ’cause we got him on the spot
      Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back, welcome back

      What, what, what, what?
      Yeah, what, yeah, what, yeah, what?
      Yeah, yeah

      What, what, what, what?
      Yeah, what, yeah, what, yeah, what?
      Yeah, c’mon

      Aiyyo, who slam harder? Onyx or Vince Carter? Onyx
      All my thugs gettin’ dollars, uh oh, uh oh
      All my ladies just holla, uh oh, uh oh, uh oh
      Slam harder

      Aiyyo, who slam harder? Onyx or Vince Carter? Onyx
      All my thugs gettin’ dollars, uh oh, uh oh
      All my ladies just holla, uh oh, uh oh, uh oh
      Slam harder

      What, what, what, what?
      Yeah, what, yeah, what? Yeah, c’mon

      Aiyyo, we back in the easy
      The game is over, it’s a rap
      It’s a reezay, straight like dat
      It’s a good look, we put, hardcore on the map
      Ten years to be exact, still throwin’ up gats

      See a thug on the TV, the chicks dig that
      But we rap for them streets where them thugs play at
      So ‘Bacdafucup’, comin’ through, comin’ through
      Get ya ‘Slam’ on
      Y’all the hardest niggas in rap? Ya dead wrong

      Y’all the niggas sittin’ on 20’s with no gas money
      Y’all niggas think you shinin’ like Puff, who gots money
      Like you really pop shots in the club
      You only pop bottles of bub’
      Y’all ain’t got no real street love

      To the death, to the ghetto, my kids with heavy metal
      On the everyday hustle, never ready to settle, uh
      Back together, with the Classic Terror
      Onyx back forever, bustin’, gats together, what?

      What, what, what, what?
      Yeah, what, yeah, what, yeah, what?
      Yeah, c’mon

      Aiyyo, who slam harder? Onyx or Vince Carter? Onyx
      All my thugs gettin’ dollars, uh oh, uh oh
      All my ladies just holla, uh oh, uh oh, uh oh
      Slam harder

      Aiyyo, who slam harder? Onyx or Vince Carter? Onyx
      All my thugs gettin’ dollars, uh oh, uh oh
      All my ladies just holla, uh oh, uh oh, uh oh
      Slam harder

      What, what, what, what?
      Yeah, what, yeah, what, yeah, what?
      Yeah, c’mon

      It’s right now, we here, same as before
      Blacks an’ stacks an’ they don’ wanna live on no flo’
      From their Project Heats, sick ridiculous flow
      From my one stop, you know the ammo

      Bigger than the streets’ anthems, you stealin’ the flow
      Rappin’ other people money an’ we takin’ ya dough
      My killas the grimiest, we keep it the gulliest
      We leave you the bloodiest ’cause we be the hungriest

      Hear that? Hunger pains
      Got some things that’ll numb your brain, run ya change
      It’s not a threat, it’s a promise
      I even got my St. Louis niggas slammin’ haters offa Onyx

      What, what, what, what?
      Yeah, what, yeah, what, yeah, what?
      Yeah, c’mon

      Aiyyo, who slam harder? Onyx or Vince Carter? Onyx
      All my thugs gettin’ dollars, uh oh, uh oh
      All my ladies just holla, uh oh, uh oh, uh oh
      Slam harder

      Aiyyo, who slam harder? Onyx or Vince Carter? Onyx
      All my thugs gettin’ dollars, uh oh, uh oh
      All my ladies just holla, uh oh, uh oh, uh oh
      Slam harder

      What, what, what, what?
      Yeah, what, yeah, what, yeah, what?
      Yeah, c’mon

      You wanna know the truth? Take a look in my eye
      I’m like B.I.G.’s first album, I’m ‘Ready to die’
      It’s Sticky Fingaz, if you didn’t already know who I am
      The minute I reached out
      An’ touched the whole hood with no hands

      ‘Cause in the streets I live through it
      It’s more than music, whatever I’m spittin’ on
      I put my life into it, got a reputation on the streets
      Of keepin’ it rough, there’s just too many of us
      You get rushed, you get bust, what?

      Big trucks, chrome rims spinnin’
      The mad faced niggas got money, so now we grinnin’
      Pull your sticks out, we the group you listen to, kid
      Niggas told me my music helped em’ through they bid

      I’m the voice of the ghetto, the heart of New York
      A fiend will give his last hit, just to hear me talk
      Niggas paid for their mistakes, death is the price
      That’s right motherfucka, Onyx for life

      What, what, what, what?
      Yeah, what, yeah, what, yeah, what?
      Yeah, c’mon

      Aiyyo, who slam harder? Onyx or Vince Carter? Onyx
      All my thugs gettin’ dollars, uh oh, uh oh
      All my ladies just holla, uh oh, uh oh, uh oh
      Slam harder

      Aiyyo, who slam harder? Onyx or Vince Carter? Onyx
      All my thugs gettin’ dollars, uh oh, uh oh
      All my ladies just holla, uh oh, uh oh, uh oh

  • arsenalist

    Con-Vince-D.

    Genius.

    • DDayLewis

      “That’s why you brought me here”

      -William “Paul Pierce” Lou

  • Reggie Evans

    Bring him back so Durant knows that Toronto and MLSE are a classy city that ties up loose ends. Plus, he can probably do a better job on Joe Johnson than any of the wings we have right now.

  • Jason

    What the hell are you guys talking about ? Vince guarding joe johnson ? At 27 vince was horrible on defence much less at 37 . Come on guys i dont know if its young kids saying this but do your homework and research on vince .

    • Jon

      Jason, I think you need to do your homework. Vince Carter would have been a far better option on Johnson than anyone on the current roster outside of a health Fields. He is an excellent low-post defender, has quick hands, rebounds well, and is vocal leader on D. He has played in pretty much every scheme imaginable. Just this playoffs, he did an excellent job on Tiago Splitter and Boris Diaw. He has made up for the loss of lateral quickness with intelligence and footwork. No one would consider him a stopper, but against a post-oriented wing like JJ, he is big enough and effective enough to have avoided all those double-teams. Watch the Magic/Hawks series from a few years back to see the job Carter can do on Johnson.

      Want stats? Just this year (listed on ESPN as a SG, although he plays more SF now):
      DRPM: +2.04 (4th in NBA, behind T. Allen, D. Green, T. Sefolosha)
      Def. reb. %: (9th among SG averaging 15+ min/game)
      82games.com OPP PER: 15.1 (impressive when you consider Dallas’s lack of D)

      If someone has access to Synergy data, could you post his defensive possession info? Carter has always been underrated defensively because he “looks lazy” and early in his career tended to coast on D til the 4th quarter, but even at 27 Carter was an effective defender. And he’s better now…

      • Minks77

        Did you ever watch VC during his prime? He was a terrible defender.

        • Jon

          Depends on what you consider his prime. I watched him plenty in NJ/Orl/Dal, but missed out on the early Toronto years. I still remember him smothering Kobe on that game-winning attempt or blocking Jason Terry’s shot to force overtime (he later hit the game winner). Carter during his prime in NJ was able to guard the other team’s second option on the wing without concern. “Terrible” is Steve Novak.

          • Minks77

            Defence is more than one play at the end of a game

          • Guest

            lol.
            For someone who a few posts above is trying to put people in their place based on stats, you’re using anecdotes here? Good one.

      • Guest

        You’re missing some numbers there. A DRtg worse than Salmons last [this] year. Declining FG% and TRB%. Age 37. Your knock on Jason isn’t fair if you’re going to cherry pick.

        • Jon

          I don’t think using opponent PER and real plus-minus is cherry-picking. They’re all we have to look at individual defense right now. DRTG is completely conditional on a team defense, so without looking I would assume the wings on Dallas would have a lower DRTG than the wings on Toronto. Compare Carter to Marion or Ellis to get an idea of the team defense with him on or off the court. Even then, though, defensive rating doesn’t take into account quality of opposition. Real +/- DOES take this into account, hence “cherry-picking” it.

          As for those other numbers your dropped… His
          FG% has declined but he has taken far more three pointers than in the
          past. If you look at TS%, Carter’s past two years in Dallas have been
          well above his career average (57% and 54%). And total rebound percentage? This past year (8.3%) was literally the same as his career number (8.3%).

          Glad to see you have basketballreference on your bookmarks but take a few more seconds and realize how useful Carter would be to this team. Outside of Ariza or Deng I don’t think there is a better FA option out there this summer.

          • Guest

            Nice reply.
            I’m glad to see you have ESPN on your bookmarks.
            I hope you get what you want and then you can sign in next year with an actual login and take credit. Or maybe, just maybe, admit you are wrong when a 37 year old player doesn’t contribute the way you are projecting him to. We’ll see.

  • jjdynomite

    Posts like these, a day after I was most proud to be a Raptor fan, make me ashamed to be a Raptor fan. Yes, let’s pursue a player who is 37.5 years old; what a great fit for a team whose average age is 26.5, and whose starting line-up is even younger than that. Oh yeah, he also unrepentantly screwed over the franchise.

    Oh, but he’s better than Salmons? What kind of bullshit argument is that? Great, let’s bring in another lackadaisical player who is a decade and a half past his greatest years who has also never won a title — who the coach can “lean on” for his veteran presence, stunting the growth of younger, hungrier players. Why not just pick up Salmons’ option, he fits all the criteria. For those who say Wince’s defensive metrics are great, so were KG’s… last season. Wince is 4 months older than KG. He’s a ticking timebomb for talent drop-off… or blowing out his knee. Let him clog up some other team’s caproom on the DL.

    Anyway, the point is moot, he will re-sign with the Mavs and go into his twilight on a team destined for first round exits.

    • DDayLewis

      Wow, you want to calm down, buddy? Vince would he a great fit for the team in terms of their on-court needs.

      • jjdynomite

        Will, seriously, I’ve nearly had enough of your millennial self-entitlement. I had seasons tickets then, so I saw first-hand what went down.

        Ergo, I shouldn’t be told how to feel, nor what’s best for the team, by someone who couldn’t watch the games — in which Vince royally tanked — because they were on past his bedtime.

        • DDayLewis

          Millenial self entitlement. Nice buzz word. No entitlement in your post whatsoever, by the way.

          • jjdynomite

            I accept that this is an original report from Marc Stein. But this follow-up RR post is ignorant of the big picture. How about presenting us with a list of veteran/backup SG/SFs who could equally, if not better, help the Raptors — instead of touting someone with declining skills with a huge amount of baggage, who is actively disliked by the majority of the Raptors fan base over, say, 30. (Note: that excludes Wiggins, Thompson, Bennett or the like).

            Given that, I would suggest that guys like Barry Taylor and Nick Reynoldson give us their perspective on this issue since they actually lived through the Wince Harder Experience. As opposed to someone who feels that MLSE staff are ray-cist for “willfully” playing a South Korean pop song during Chinese heritage night.

            Look, no buzzwords!

            • DDayLewis

              It’s a post about a rumor floated by Stein. The theme is obviously about Carter, but you want an entire list of all the free agent swingmen available this offseason. Again, no entitlement there. Don’t worry, we here at RR will revel in the opportunity in writing a potential replacement for Salmons post. This clearly wasn’t the time, nor place.

              And again, it’s by no means a definitive post on Carter. Obviously a definitive Carter article has enough content to fill a book. This was a putback reporting a rumor. This same standard has applied for other rumors (ie: all the Lowry shit).

              Also, nowhere in the post did I advocate for Carter. I mentioned that he’s still productive, and would fit on-court needs. I didn’t say anything about “WE NEED TO SIGN CARTER”.

              How the fuck is me feeling offended by the Raptors’ corny Asian Heritage Night relevant to this discussion?

        • JGreg

          If the average Canadian was working for a boss who created an awful work environment and assigned tasks well-below his/her level of talent (with the assumption that he/she is no longer an important part of the company going forward), I think that average person’s performance declines. Do we hold athlete’s being paid millions of dollars to a higher standard? Yes. But Carter’s legacy of philanthropy, his ability to put his ego aside as his career evolved, his current status as emotional leader on the Mavericks… these things also suggest that Carter might not be the villain you remember him as.

          Human memory is awful, and more often than not Carter’s legacy is wrapped in falsehoods that a season ticket holder as yourself could probably remember. Carter dunked the day after he jokingly said he didn’t want to dunk anymore. Carter rescinded his trade demand. If Carter told the player on the sonics what play they were running, it was because it allowed him to get in that player’s head, as he led the Raps to a bucket on THAT play. Carter never admitted to not trying hard for the Raptors. Rather, he lamented the fact that he probably could have put more offseason training in during his early years.

          • jjdynomite

            “Human memory is awful”? “Wrapped in falsehoods that a season ticket holder such as [myself] could probably remember?” Wow, how about some condescension with my coffee in the morning.

            Look, JGreg, I’ll make it very, very clear for nimrods such as yourself:

            2004-2005 Season:
            Toronto: .411 FG% .322 FT% .694 FT% 3.3 REB 3.1 AST 1.3 STL 0.8 BLK 15.9 PTS

            Nets: .462 FG%, .425 FT% .817 FT% 5.9 REB 4.7 AST 1.5 STL 0.6 BLK 27.5 PTS

            Now, since I did your work for you, why don’t you go look up LeBron’s stats, or Melo’s stats, or even Bosh’s stats, from their final (partial) seasons with their original clubs, and then their time after they were moved/left as a FA to their new club. And try to defend Wince…instead of shooting the messenger.

            Honestly, it’s unscrupulous defects like yourself is what will forever make Toronto a second class city. “But he now says he likes us, he really, really likes us!” Keep your Sally Field garbage to yourself and stop impugning people like myself who actually care about the reputation of this franchise and can actually think of more than one backup SG/SF to court to join the Raptors.

            • JGreg

              Sorry to have offended you, jjdynomite. I didn’t mean for you to take this so personally… I am simply a fan of both the Raptors and Vince Carter and the fan in me is hoping for some sort of happy ending. And I don’t think I’m alone in seeing Toronto as a first-class city…

              No one disputes that Vince played better after he was traded to New Jersey. He also had a down year after being traded to Phoenix in 2011. The question, in both cases, is WHY Vince struggled. Both years serious questions were raised about his commitment (“maybe it’s because he just doesn’t care”) but that is not something that can be quantified. When Vince, traditionally a primary option, was asked to play off-ball… he would lose focus offensively and show less interest defensively. Happened in 2004 and again in 2011. Unfortunately for Vince, perceived effort is put at a premium and the fans are far quicker to forgive a DUI than low pain tolerance.

              At this stage of his career, Vince is a completely different player who relishes being a 2nd or 3rd option and there are absolutely NO questions about his desire, work ethic, and positive influence in the locker room. IF Carter is the best fit for us (big if, but at 2-3 mil/year he is certainly an option) then Toronto should go after him for basketball reasons. Hopefully the positive off-the-court stuff (jersey retirement/sales, Raptors/NBA all-time lists, emotional leadership) can outweigh the negative (die-hard fans who feel betrayed, distraction).

              To be completely honest, you have actually swayed my opinion on the matter. If even 10% of our fanbase have the venom for Vince that you do, it would be way too divisive to be worth it. So maybe it really isn’t a good idea…

    • dunkmycat7

      OK gentlemen forget about the past, so NOT relevant.
      No room for sentiment here while we try to build a championship team, RUTHLESS objectivity.
      Can he play or not ?
      IMO-the Key point in your argument “he’s a ticking time bomb for talent drop off ” just like KG….THIS SEASON.
      Just not the right guy, but has nothing to do with what you think he did to the franchise.

  • monocled_gentleman_scholar

    Signing Vince would be a feel-good move that backfires, like the attempted Nash signing. And Casey will not be back next season.

    • JGreg

      Wrong on two counts here.

  • Guest

    Carter, 37, an eight-time All-Star who has reinvented himself as a sixth man during his three-year tenure in Dallas, expects to re-sign with the Mavs. Carter, who made $3.2 million this season, also said the chance to play for a contender is much more important than money.
    “The situation matters, the right situation,” said Carter, the Mavs’ third-leading scorer with 11.9 points per game this season. “I don’t want to play for free, but other than that, the right situation is what it’s all about. At this point in my career, I just want to play for teams that compete for a championship. I just want that opportunity, so that’s what I’m looking for.”
    -ESPN

  • mike, prague

    Not gonna hide it, I’m hyped!

  • Bryan Colangelo

    Am I the only guy that remembers fans booing Vince during his injury, when he completed a fast break with a lay-up instead of a dunk? Vince quit on the Raptors, but the Toronto fans quit on players/coaches, on-and-off, all the time (see the bitching about Demar, Casey, Amir, Ross etc after a franchise-best record).

    That doesn’t excuse how Vince handled his trade demands, and I think the blowback against him was justified. But you get a sense that he felt the management especially took him granted, and he’s not entirely wrong about that.

    If they brought Vince back, and he outperformed Salmons on a reasonable contract, I would root for him.

  • TheInfiniteToker

    I’ve let go of the hate for Carter, all my hate is with Bosh now anyways.

    • kayell

      Not Bargnani?

    • RapthoseLeafs

      What happens if Lowry leaves. Will Raptor fans hate him the most?

      IMO …. any hate for past players are irrational thoughts that waste time. Vent all you want (and move on) but some fans need to get over it. Toronto needs ALL the help it can get in attracting key players (not just Role players, which we’re good at getting). Booing players for 10 years doesn’t help.
      .

  • Dev

    My question is does amir have to give up his jersey?

  • Bemeup

    Luol Deng anyone?

  • Toronto

    BRING VINCE HOME!!!!!!!

  • Mexiballer

    I dont believe this report or should I say rumor. I believe that there are to many other options that Masai will pursue other then bringing in an old player and a possible can of worms back to Toronto. It doesnt make sense. Tin Liweike wants a fresh start and a “New” Raptors. Why muck it up by reaching back into the past for an old player that represents the past of this organization. And not a good past given its ending. Bad rumor. Its not going to happen.

  • hyperdouche

    I was burned just like everyone but ive come around and think it would be a good full-circle story, a la our own reversal of the bambino curse. Franchise karma and all that. Let’s do it!

  • AJBecker

    It would make a nice story if it works out perfectly and Vince plays well and isn’t a distraction, etc. But I’m not sure it makes good basketball sense, you don’t bring in a player just because he’s a good story. Also the argument that he is better than Salmons is flimsy at best. There are plenty of players better than Salmons, and to bring Vince back for nostalgia purposes may be a bit short sighted.

  • Frank Rollo

    Imagine this: Vince returns to the Raptors next season, second round game 7 he gets a chance at that shot again, but this time he Hits it.

  • TheR3dMenace

    Ridiculous. This is the same guy that didn’t care if you shelled out for season tickets, or cable-channels or Carter jerseys. He wanted out and didn’t care if he took the whole franchise down with him. Vince Carter isn’t about winning, isn’t about respect, Vince Carter is about Vince Carter. I haven’t given a fuck about this guy in 10 years, I’m not about to start now.

  • Argos

    If the ‘Big Three’ breakup, Chris Bosh would be the perfect fit for this team, I think.

    Bring back both Bosh and Carter!

  • Ednan Ahmed

    Bring him back he would be great off the bench and good for Derozan and TROSS kick the tires on TMAC that would be hype having Vince n Tracy off the bench

  • Tamberlyn Richardson

    Vince has one playoff game in Toronto where he performs remotely close to how he did in the Dallas series let alone hits a game winning shot and believe me even his biggest haters will want his jersey in the rafters before he even retires. Given his response to the post game question regarding the similarity to his game winning shot vs San Antonio being eerily similar to the one he missed in Philly (i.e. he knew it occurred May 20) it’s obvious he just wants a chance to redeem himself.

    Personally, I called for him and Paul Millsap to be off-season targets last summer so my views haven’t changed. In fact, given his passing ability, three point range, ability to defend and rise to the big occasions I’d say he would be a big upgrade from Salmons.

    The day following a heartbreaking Game 7 loss many have cited the fact Toronto didn’t get the benefit of calls due to our lack of experience. An argument without merit given Washington was afforded those calls versus the veteran Chicago squad. Perhaps its fairer to say it all had to do with television ratings but guaranteed if Toronto wants to start building any type of history for the franchise at some point it needs to include Carter. Honestly can you imagine another team being credited for his slam dunk win?

    Another factor to consider is any young player who has donned a Raptor jersey in the past 10 years has always pointed to the Carter era as when they became Raptors fans/followers. Kevin Durant grew up loving Toronto because of Vince, ditto for Andrew Wiggins. DeRozan and Ross have cited Vince when stating they want to bring that type of energy back to the city and franchise. Certainly Vince would relish having a do over in reclaiming some love from the city where it all started and prove he’s matured and is a better person than when he left a young star on the rise who felt under appreciated and neglected by Babcock and company.

    Bottom line, he’d be an upgrade off the bench, would be a useful vet to assist in the development of DeRozan and Ross and I’d bet money there is no franchise Carter would rather be a part of leading further in the playoffs than Toronto.

    It’s time Toronto embraced building the franchise’s history and we simply can’t do that without forgiving Carter. Bringing him back would be one step in that direction. The fact it would improve our current roster is just gravy.

    • Tamberlyn Richardson

      Oh, just one more thing: I emphasize with some of the Raptor faithful’s arguments and their reasoning for not liking the move because they believe he purposely let us down. To them I say, I paid a lot of money to be at his first game back to boo along with every one else. Since that time I’ve looked at both sides of the argument and my opinion softened over time.

      At the end of the day I chose to remember I made some pretty dumb choices in my younger years and no I’ve never come close to making a million dollars, but if we don’t learn from our mistakes how do we grow, I think about my friends who are parents or of my younger family members (nieces and nephews) and wonder if they made a bad choice and were never afforded the opportunity to be forgiven how that would sit with me. If you’re a parent ask yourself that question.

      Yes these athletes make absurd money, but does that mean they are expected to be perfect. LeBron James made one of the worst choices EVER with his “decision” TV program and though money went to charity a good chunk also went in his pocket. And, James has never even thought about being in the slam dunk contest because losing would hurt his brand and yet he’s been forgiven for both those slights. Anyway, just some food for thought.

      • jjdynomite

        LeBron James played damn hard for the Cavs until “the decision” TV show. The fact that you are conflating James’ obviously-awkward letting down of Cleveland ***when he was an unrestricted free agent*** vs. Wince actively playing beneath his capabilities in 2004-2005 ***while under contract*** shows that you are placing nostalgia before reality — or the legitimate feelings of the fan base over 35 or so.

        Anyway, I’ll help prep your next article for you:
        FREE AGENT SGs: http://hoopshype.com/free_agency/shooting_guards_2014.htm
        Realistic Names Who Are Better Fits Than 37.5-Year-Old Wince:
        – Lance Stephenson
        – Avery Bradley
        – Thabo Sefolosha

        FREE AGENT SFs: http://hoopshype.com/free_agency/small_forwards_2014.htm
        Realistic Names Who Are Better Fits Than 37.5-Year-Old Wince:
        – Luol Deng
        – Gordon Hayward
        – Francisco Garcia
        – Trevor Ariza

        Knock yourself out.

        • Tamberlyn Richardson

          I detect your sarcasm and anger, which is fine… your entitled, I didn’t post looking to put down anyone’s opinion, rather I was stating my own.

          I was angry for a long time at the Vince scenario (and I’m over 35) just
          like I was angry at Antonio Davis’ comments and quitting on the team
          and was furious about some of the ridiculous things Bosh said about
          Toronto. He also sat unnecessarily for six games (when he was healthy)
          and could have helped the Raptors make the post season. BUT, I got over
          it.

          And, I think you are missing my point as I was NOT comparing the two choices (LeBron and Vince), rather I was using the example of how the young super stars of the league (even the player considered the best in the league) can make mistakes.

          I felt LeBron’s choice to make a public spectacle about where he was going, filmed within a TV studio strewn with all the products he endorses was in poor taste and a slap to the Cavaliers fans/franchise. Since you’ve pointed it out, I also think it was something his Marketing Team pushed him to do. Whether you agree or not it was not widely seen as a good move. BUT, he’s been mostly forgiven for it.

          I also don’t understand why he is so adverse to doing the dunk competition because he doesn’t want it to affect his brand, but said if they paid him a million dollars to do it he would reconsider. Gone are the days when Jordan and Kobe would enter and risk losing simply to own the title, compete against the best and give the fans a show. Since he is considered the leagues best player perhaps I hold him to a higher standard because other stars look to him for direction on how they conduct their own careers and choices.

          Anyway, it wasn’t an apples to apples comparison and wasn’t meant to be. It was me explaining how a younger player can make a mistake they might not choose in reflection later in their career. The only way it was used in conjunction to Vince was younger players don’t always make the perfect choice. You can chose to agree, disagree or say I’m presenting unreasonable conflicting information. I doubt however you can’t agree we all make mistakes when we are younger we wouldn’t make now and that we learn and grow from these.

          Your Free Agent article comment is a whole other can of worms. I’m looking at Vince strictly from a veteran mid level lower salary ($2
          mill/year) off the bench. I see it as a good fit because it leaves money to pursue areas the Raptors need to address like an agile Center and more depth at Small and Power Forward. Most of the players you listed wouldn’t even
          fall within the same salary range as Vince.

          – Like I stated this morning on twitter I like Trevor Ariza but the last time he played like he is this season it was also in a contract year (LA) so I’d tread lightly in that pursuit.

          – Deng would be awesome as he presents a 2-way player who would fit well within the Raptors style but he turned down $10 million a year from Chicago. (and would be a starter)

          – Avery Bradley and Sefolosha are defensive specialist who aren’t primary ball handlers.

          – Hayward and Stephenson will both want to be starters and will warrant big contracts (Hayward will likely try to realign with his college coach Brad Stevens in Boston)

          – and Garcia barely saw any playing time and I personally don’t think he’s a good fit for a myriad of reasons.

          Anyway, it’s all a matter of opinion and that’s mine. We don’t need to agree and I don’t need to put you down just because yours is different. I enjoy the discussion and I liked Will’s article/question so I responded.

          • jjdynomite

            A fine response Tamberlyn; I give credit where credit is due, and I
            appreciate your time, since you obviously took a lot longer to reply
            than Will’s defensive histrionics.

            I do not want to debate
            whether Wince would take a $2 million offer since I obviously do not
            want him on the team. But I doubt he would take $2 million anyway since
            he made $3 mil the last 3 seasons and missed only 2 games to injury the
            last two while playing plus basketball. In other words, he’s that
            ticking time bomb I mentioned earlier — of an aging, injury-prone
            player who has not yet been injured in a while, but is well-masked in
            the Mavs system. He’d be back in the spotlight on the Raps, for obvious
            reasons.

            Now that Casey is re-signed, I’d lean towards defensive
            players like Bradley or Sefolosha who would be solid in a backup or
            starting specialist role, especially if that means T-Ross will be
            converted into an instant-offense gunner off the bench — and Vasquez is
            kept to maintain the primary ball handling duties of the second unit
            (and feed Ross).

            Or go all-out and sign Deng, who grew up in a
            Commonwealth nation so wouldn’t say or do stupid shit as Yankees like
            Wince, Bosh and AD have previously done, as you duly noted.

            Ultimately, we will see what Masai has up his sleeve…

  • dunkmycat7

    How about we take a run at Lebron first ?
    Drake – R U on it ? signing bonus could be 15 million lint rollers.
    As crazy as it sounds I would rather shoot for the moon. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
    Think TL isn’t thinking this ? He thinks BIG.
    But really – I said this in another post…this team does not need more offence. The Raps need perimeter defence to stop all the great guards and wings in the NBA – An Allen/ Iguaduola/Connely type – BIG guards who can mostly go one on one vrs the top players. Someone to stop Joe Johnson for example. And I’m willing to give up some offence to get that.

  • Howard MacKinnon

    The thought of Carter back in TO makes me sick. Try to justify it all you want by referring to the good times, he was paid well to do a job he refused to do. No class, no character. That’s not who you want influencing the young players. Carter is not McGrady who made a decision and left, or Turkalo, who was simply not able to perform as advertised. This is a guy who was not only capable of doing the job, but accepted a huge salary and agreed to do it. But then he mails in his “effort”, demands a trade, and tells the other team what play they are running. There has been no one else like him.

  • Nilanka15

    At the vet’s minimum, I don’t have any problem with bringing Vince back. But in no way should Masai be entering a bidding war with Cuban.

    As for Vince’s past, yes we’re all aware of how he quit on the team. But c’mon, that was 10 years ago. He was a kid who didn’t know any better (and whose sense of self-entitlement was largely created by ownership….”Yes Vince, we’ll do whatever you want, Vince. Just please don’t leave, Vince”). Imagine how dumb we all were 10 years ago, and then contemplate how you’d correct that mistake now.

    Carter’s well passed the stage of entitlement, and half-assing his way through an NBA season. Nobody is expecting him to come in and start taking away shots from DeRozan or Ross. Instead, he’ll be the current rendition of Kevin Willis.

    Yes, he’s 38 years old, but he’s still more athletic than a 21 year old Jonas. Don’t worry about his age. Worry about his production.

  • Stefan

    It may not make the most sense from a basketball stand point. But if this happens, it’ll be the end of a very important story. IF he cames, and IF he hits a game winner (for example), at home, I think a lot of demons would be exorcised. I mean who doesn’t want to see that?

  • Damian Oscar Paratore

    he should apologize to every fan in Toronto to start, and just admit that he quit on the RAPTORS. BUT i would hate for that traitor to get a second chance. my pops is with the media, and has been covering the RAPS since day 1, he was also the biggest VC fan ever. So the year VC was at the allstar game representing the NEW JERSEY NETS. My old man saw VC and wanted to say hello and wish him all the best, when VC answered to him, ” I have nothing to say to you or your stupid city ” I remember the old man calling me and he couldn’t believe that VC had spoken to him like that. And if any of you were or are lucky enough to meet Oscar Paratore NBA’s nicest media personality, who never criticizes players but embraces and loves them genuinely especially if you have been a RAPTOR. And for VC to pick on a nice man that shows that he is not the kind of mentor the RAPTORS need. I do realize that VC may have been screwed a bit by management, and that a lot of time has passed but any person who likes basketball knows he stopped playing for the RAPTORS and himself, he could have been a Kobe, Iverson any kind of superstar player that he wanted to be, I don’t think that someone who has wasted there talents and messed around with the fans feelings deserve this great opportunity. Why couldn’t he had said sorry in his special ??? I think that’s the most important if he has grown up and is a good mature role player, then why not say ” I messed up, I am sorry Toronto ” But he can’t for some stupid reason, be accountable for your actions and man up already. That would be a start !!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Guest

      Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

      Character catches up to you, even outside of the game. If you didn’t learn that with Tiger Woods’ downfall, I don’t know what will make the point. Time doesn’t build character and neither does money.

      Character goes beyond stats, although it can be reflected in them. It’s the reason we outperformed this year. The Lowry meeting is the stuff of lore. The Raptors Dad’s club is publicly known. These things are not just important as page 5 fluff, but because they have correlated with a positive outcome.

      Let’s see how many of these forgiving people remain forgiving people once a) VC spurns us to stay in Dallas or b) signs here and spends half of his two year contract missing games. It’s funny how many people can overlook everything because they think signing VC will improve our on-court product. The condescending remarks calling other posters the “peanut gallery” aren’t even being modded. My simple response of “Ha” appears to have been.

      Like it or not, boardees, Damian’s right – there’s a relationship between outcome and character. It will be interesting to see if we get another example of this. I just hope it doesn’t come at the expense of Raptor wins.

  • Truth Teller

    Maybe its just me, but the NBA became very friendly and soft around 2008. Also teams like the Heats, Pacers and the best in the west basically quit and get ready for the playoffs in January. So maybe thats why I don’t care about the Vince fiasco anymore.

  • Truth Teller

    I much rather have Vince than Turkeyglue. Turkeyglue ate his way out.

  • Shaheer

    yes, thats right, “It all started in Toronto” and I would love to see Vince retire in Toronto!

  • Philoveritas

    I think management envisions VC going in to the hall of fame in a Raptors jersey. They will lobby the league to that effect.

  • Jason

    If bosh opts out of miami and we clear enough cap space via amnesty fields and other moves is it possible to add carter and bosh to go along with this young core including lowry . Im not a numbers guy so im wondering if the salaries would work out .

  • doncity

    Anybody who doesn’t think Vince Carter could help the Raptors next year off the bench is either a hater or doesn’t know basketball. If Carter plays for the Raps against the Nets, we win that series. With Carter and a few tweaks here and there the Raps could be on a collision course for the Heat as soon as next season.

    If Carter sees a fit here and the price is right there’s no reason not to make this happen. The only question mark on Carter’s game over his career has been his long-term durability. Now that he’s settled into his sixth man role it seems like he’s shaken the injury bug and shown some surprising athletic ability on the court despite being near the end of the line. While he may be slightly older than Kevin Garnett, he has the advantage of not having the crucial extra miles that come from being drafted straight out of high school, so for whatever reasons at 37 he’s more Paul Pierce than Tracy McGrady.

    If Masai really wants to show he’s his own man, he’ll ignore the peanut gallery (most of whom were all in for the tank this year, lest we forget) and make moves that will benefit the team no matter who catches feelings.

  • RapthoseLeafs

    Some fans need to get the f**k over this. We have a very supportive base, many of whom (including me) became strong Raptor fans BECAUSE of Vince.

    I hate all this hate. lol
    It doesn’t help our cause – which is over-riding the Canadian aspect.

    ” Lowry is unrestricted, so the Bulls don’t have to necessarily overbid.
    They just need to make a similar offer to Toronto and count on the fact
    that Lowry would likely prefer to play in Chicago than Canada which
    would be true of the vast majority of players out there. ”

    http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-bulls-confidential/2014/05/trade-derrick-rose-for-carmelo-anthony-and-sign-kyle-lowry/

    Make it so ….. Masai.

    .