Raps 2010-2011 Starting C and PF

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Tim W. wrote:

Actually, you yourself admitted that Bargnani has trouble guarding the quicker, more perimeter oriented players. The only player he guards well are the back to the basket players. The other ones he has trouble guarding. The problem is that Bargnani is really only effective defensively guarding centers down low, but he's not good playing help defense. If he's asked to guard smaller, more perimeter players, he's not nearly as effective, yet he conceivably won't be asked to help out as much (although that is up for debate).

Bargnani simply doesn't have lateral quickness, quick feet or anticipation to be able to guard players out of the paint. The same reason he is not a good help defender is the same reason he's not good at guarding out of the paint. It requires a little more understanding of defense and the tendencies of your opponent. In other words, it usually requires a higher level of basketball IQ, something Bargnani simply doesn't have. Bargnani is a good post defender because he has good length and tends to stay on his feet rather than try and jump to block shots. His lack of anticipation actually works in his favour in the post because he doesn't fall for fakes.

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For me Tim, this is a question of what will hurt us more: Bargs being our main help guy or Bargs sometimes getting burned by the smaller faster player he is guarding. I think I would rather have one player on the other team burn us once in a while than have our main help defender watch as the other team lays the ball in unchallenged over and over again which is what we may see if Bargs can't improve his D. Now I've said it before, I think Bargs can get better at both his help defense and his anticipation through hard work and better scouting, so I'd like to give him anther season to develop into his role, but the time is coming very soon where he will have to d up or get out.
Other than his poor help D why do you think of him as having poor b-ball IQ? He actually passes fairly well when he puts his mind to it, and he seems to have picked up how to defend in the post very rapidly, something I can't say a lot of guys in the league learn to do.

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hateslosing wrote:

For me Tim, this is a question of what will hurt us more: Bargs being our main help guy or Bargs sometimes getting burned by the smaller faster player he is guarding. I think I would rather have one player on the other team burn us once in a while than have our main help defender watch as the other team lays the ball in unchallenged over and over again which is what we may see if Bargs can't improve his D. Now I've said it before, I think Bargs can get better at both his help defense and his anticipation through hard work and better scouting, so I'd like to give him anther season to develop into his role, but the time is coming very soon where he will have to d up or get out.
Other than his poor help D why do you think of him as having poor b-ball IQ? He actually passes fairly well when he puts his mind to it, and he seems to have picked up how to defend in the post very rapidly, something I can't say a lot of guys in the league learn to do.

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I think I have illustrated why I am so adamant the Raptors trade Bargnani. No matter where you play him or what you do with him, you're always at a disadvantage. And Bargnani is going to get burned just as much guarding smaller, faster players as he will get burned helping on D. If you're going to have him on the floor, I'd rather have him do what he does well, which is guard the post, and have a great help defender and shot blocker playing beside him (like Ed Davis, if he lives up to his billing). I'd rather not take away the ONE thing he does well on defense, which is guard the post.

As for your claim that the center is always the main help defender, you just have to look around the league to see that's not always true. Al Horford is the Hawks post defender, but Josh Smith is the leading shotblocker. Horford is obviously miles ahead of Bargnani as a help defender, but it's Smith that defenders funnel the offense to.

Don't hold your breath on Bargnani getting better at help D (except marginally). It's been four years. If it was ANY other player people wouldn't continue to have such high hopes for him. Why do people think that Bargnani is so different from everyone else?

As for Bargnani's low basketball IQ, it's just a matter of watching him the last four years. He doesn't catch onto things quickly on the court, he always seems to be reacting to rather than anticipating the action, as players with higher IQs tend to do. And the claim that he's a good passer is one that is often repeated but holds no truth to it. People mistake the fact that he makes a good pass once in a while for the fact that he's a good passer. I used the example of him making a spectacular block now and then not indicating he's a good help defender.

Bargnani is our best shot blocker and our best defender.
Bosh's defense was the equivalent of one of those beaded curtains- they can easily be pushed out of your way and are annoying as hell and ugly.

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Tim W. wrote:

I think I have illustrated why I am so adamant the Raptors trade Bargnani. No matter where you play him or what you do with him, you're always at a disadvantage. And Bargnani is going to get burned just as much guarding smaller, faster players as he will get burned helping on D. If you're going to have him on the floor, I'd rather have him do what he does well, which is guard the post, and have a great help defender and shot blocker playing beside him (like Ed Davis, if he lives up to his billing). I'd rather not take away the ONE thing he does well on defense, which is guard the post.

As for your claim that the center is always the main help defender, you just have to look around the league to see that's not always true. Al Horford is the Hawks post defender, but Josh Smith is the leading shotblocker. Horford is obviously miles ahead of Bargnani as a help defender, but it's Smith that defenders funnel the offense to.

Don't hold your breath on Bargnani getting better at help D (except marginally). It's been four years. If it was ANY other player people wouldn't continue to have such high hopes for him. Why do people think that Bargnani is so different from everyone else?

As for Bargnani's low basketball IQ, it's just a matter of watching him the last four years. He doesn't catch onto things quickly on the court, he always seems to be reacting to rather than anticipating the action, as players with higher IQs tend to do. And the claim that he's a good passer is one that is often repeated but holds no truth to it. People mistake the fact that he makes a good pass once in a while for the fact that he's a good passer. I used the example of him making a spectacular block now and then not indicating he's a good help defender.

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First off, I've often said I would rather have a great helping three ala Josh Smith or Gerald Wallace come over to help in order to take the pressure off Bosh and Bargnani. My comment about centers being the main help defender was more of a generalization since the center is usually the man guarding the opponents biggest post guy and is therefore the guy who is closest to the rim. There are of course exceptions, but that is the logic and it is often true.

The reason I continue to hold out hope on Barg's help D is twofold. One is that he managed to become a decent post defender over the past 2 seasons which is something many people never thought he could do, and two is that unlike most guys who play the center and pf positions in the NBA, Bargs like never had much experience in a the defensive systems commonly used in the NBA and may take a bit more time to figure it out than the average big. Five years was what BC said we could expect and we are going to be at 5 at the end of this coming season, so I'l drink the cool aid and wait and see.

If someone makes good passes, they are a good passer. I have rarely seen Bargs make a bad pass, though maybe I'm forgetting some. Your shot bocking example is a good one if you meant IQ instead of passing because then the comparison is just because someone blocks shots (passes) well, doesn't mean the are a good defender (have good IQ) which is accurate and a good point; however, when you say, just because someone bocks shots well (passes) doesn't mean they are a good shot blocker (passer) your argument stops making sense.

You're wrong about Bargs getting burned by smaller faster players hurting us as much as him not helping. The thing is, even if Barg's guy takes him off the dribble, there is a really good help defender there to bail him out in someone like ED Davis. So it is definitely to our advantage to have Bargs guarding the smaller big in that sense.
This is assuming that Ed Davis is a guy who can guard bigs in this league, which I doubt is the case at this point in time.

@ Multipaul

Why bring up Bosh? We know he's not a great defender, but this is about Bargs and where he should be playing on defense.

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hateslosing wrote:

First off, I've often said I would rather have a great helping three ala Josh Smith or Gerald Wallace come over to help in order to take the pressure off Bosh and Bargnani. My comment about centers being the main help defender was more of a generalization since the center is usually the man guarding the opponents biggest post guy and is therefore the guy who is closest to the rim. There are of course exceptions, but that is the logic and it is often true.

The reason I continue to hold out hope on Barg's help D is twofold. One is that he managed to become a decent post defender over the past 2 seasons which is something many people never thought he could do, and two is that unlike most guys who play the center and pf positions in the NBA, Bargs like never had much experience in a the defensive systems commonly used in the NBA and may take a bit more time to figure it out than the average big. Five years was what BC said we could expect and we are going to be at 5 at the end of this coming season, so I'l drink the cool aid and wait and see.

If someone makes good passes, they are a good passer. I have rarely seen Bargs make a bad pass, though maybe I'm forgetting some. Your shot bocking example is a good one if you meant IQ instead of passing because then the comparison is just because someone blocks shots (passes) well, doesn't mean the are a good defender (have good IQ) which is accurate and a good point; however, when you say, just because someone bocks shots well (passes) doesn't mean they are a good shot blocker (passer) your argument stops making sense.

You're wrong about Bargs getting burned by smaller faster players hurting us as much as him not helping. The thing is, even if Barg's guy takes him off the dribble, there is a really good help defender there to bail him out in someone like ED Davis. So it is definitely to our advantage to have Bargs guarding the smaller big in that sense.
This is assuming that Ed Davis is a guy who can guard bigs in this league, which I doubt is the case at this point in time.

@ Multipaul

Why bring up Bosh? We know he's not a great defender, but this is about Bargs and where he should be playing on defense.

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The Raptors were never going to be contenders with both Bosh and Bargnani, no matter who else the Raptors had. You simply need a very good defensive big man to contend. You can't get around that.

And Bargnani was actually a half decent post defender when he came in the league. It's probably the one thing I was surprised about in his rookie season. It's not as if he's picked it up in the four years he's been in the NBA. He came into the league with that ability.

My argument is not that Bargnani makes good passes but is not a good passer. It's that he makes good passes ONCE IN A WHILE. It's not something he does consistently. Bargnani certainly gets the ball enough that, if he were a good passer, he'd average a lot more than 1.2 apg. I've seen Bosh make some great passes, too, it doesn't mean he's a good passer...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tig19O5N4Nk

Anytime a bigman is beaten, you're putting undo pressure on the defense. If Bargnani is consistently beaten by his man and Ed Davis has to cover for him, the Raptors are going to pay for it. The reason is because if Davis is helping and Bargnani has been beaten, if Bargnani's man end up missing his shot, who is going to get the rebound? Probably Davis' man. Bargnani certainly won't be in any position to box out if he's the one who's been beaten.

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hateslosing wrote:

@ Multipaul

Why bring up Bosh? We know he's not a great defender, but this is about Bargs and where he should be playing on defense.

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Sorry

Bargs is our best defender.

Done.

I guess we'll see in the coming season Tim,

Cheers.