Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

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Tim W. wrote:

Maybe because that certain veteran had a big impact on him. It doesn't mean that just getting a veteran big man is going to do anything. The fact of the matter is that the coaches do the majority of the teaching. Again, that's what they're there for. It's an assistant coach who is going to usually spend extra time with a player to show him something. Not a player.

Nesterovic spent eight years in the league, including three as the starting center on one of the best teams in the league. He has been heralded as being a quality locker room presence and good mentor, which is why he was asked back for a second time with the Raptors. Nesterovic was a very good team defender throughout his career who, despite not being very athletic or quick, was able to be a valuable contributor wherever he went. Why wouldn't he have been a good player to learn defense from?

And while Oberto certainly didn't have the NBA background that Nesterovic did, why wouldn't he be a good veteran to learn from?

Well, at least I didn't insult you personally. And I was simply pointing out that you also seemed to have no problem telling people to do more research.

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Tim, I seem to be following you around lately. lol. Maybe it's just because you are posting so damn much. lol. Anyways, I wanted to point out that Rasho was supposedly a good locker-room presence, but then I was shocked when BC dropped the bomb that Rasho was part of the locker room problem last season when he sided with Hedo and all the crap he was trying to get away with.

Also, you cannot use Rasho's championships with the Spurs as credible validation without pointing out that Nazr Mohammed beat him out for the starting job the year that he won. Regardless of that, pretty much ANY big man (i.e. Nazr, Rasho, Oberto) who lines up next to Tim Duncan looks like a defensive stalwart. Just check their defensive ratings before and after Duncan.

That said, Bargnani seems to be practically un-coachable. He is too thin skinned to accept criticism. And he is just good enough at a few things to make him blind to the things he is horrible at.

lets sign dikemebe mutombo as a coach

One Word: OAK

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Legalize-It wrote:

i didnt say coaches CANT TEACH... i said players who HAVE PLAYED THE GAME AT THAT POSITION can JUST MAYBE ADD TO THAT TEACHING !

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Okay, let's be clear here. I like the idea of having an older veteran that a player can basically hang around his first season or two, especially if the young player is expected to be a big part of the organization. That happened with Bargnani when Colangelo brought in Nesterovic. The fact that Nesterovic was also a foreign born player and could start until it was time for Bargnani to take over the position was all the better.

But now Bargnani is the veteran. He's in his fifth year. If he still needs an older veteran to show him something that he hasn't picked up by now, I think it's pretty much a lost cause.

It's not as if Bargnani needs to learn the nuances of team defense. He still doesn't seem to understand the basics. Quite honestly, quite a few guys I play pickup basketball with understand team defense better than he does. A veteran player isn't going to help him any more than a coach would if he still doesn't understand the basics.

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golden wrote:

Tim, I seem to be following you around lately. lol. Maybe it's just because you are posting so damn much. lol. Anyways, I wanted to point out that Rasho was supposedly a good locker-room presence, but then I was shocked when BC dropped the bomb that Rasho was part of the locker room problem last season when he sided with Hedo and all the crap he was trying to get away with.

Also, you cannot use Rasho's championships with the Spurs as credible validation without pointing out that Nazr Mohammed beat him out for the starting job the year that he won. Regardless of that, pretty much ANY big man (i.e. Nazr, Rasho, Oberto) who lines up next to Tim Duncan looks like a defensive stalwart. Just check their defensive ratings before and after Duncan.

That said, Bargnani seems to be practically un-coachable. He is too thin skinned to accept criticism. And he is just good enough at a few things to make him blind to the things he is horrible at.

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Yes, you're right about Nesterovic in San Antonio, but he still was an 8 year starter in the league when he joined the Raptors, and while he was not exactly physically gifted, he did know how to play team defense. Besides, maybe Nazr and Oberto would be good veterans to teach a young player, too? I'm often surprised at the players that end up becoming coaches.

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Jordan-Drexler wrote:

One Word: OAK

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+1

Wow.

Anyway, Bargnani does some serious off season training. During the season there isn't a ton of time, but I'm sure BC and Jay have something solid in place for him to develop. They both have a lot riding on him and I'm sure they're doing everything they can. I remember Jermaine O'Neil spent time with him when he was here ( and before). Legalize-it, of all people (judging by your name) you should understand that like you, Bargnani is a pretty laid-back dude. Like when your stoned, motivation will always be an issue with Bargnani.

Sometimes Tim,you can be one arrogant SOB.....after five years Bargs should be able to do what is expected from a big man....is the defensive player of the year getting any extra coaching ? Are you on the Davis payroll? the kid hasn"t played a game in the NBA yet? good luck guarding Shack and the boys while being 200 lbs soaking wet!!! I agree Oak would bring some balls to the line up....

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Tim W. wrote:

I'm not sure what you think a veteran big man is going to do that all the coaches Bargnani has had over his entire career, as well as guys like Nesterovic, and Moses Malone, who tutored him in the summer of 2009, have done. Before you make broad assumptions, ensure you know what you are talking about. By the time a player gets to the NBA, team defense should be mostly instinctual. And by the time you get to year five, you should really know what you're doing. Coaching, mentoring and all the things that people keep saying the Raptors should do to teach Bargnani how to play team defense won't do any good if the player simply don't have it in him to play good team defense.

Ed Davis, right now, is a better team defender than Bargnani is. Besides, there are more than enough good coaches on the team that can show him the finer points of team defense in the NBA. That's what coaches are for.

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d279 wrote:

Sometimes Tim,you can be one arrogant SOB.....after five years Bargs should be able to do what is expected from a big man....is the defensive player of the year getting any extra coaching ? Are you on the Davis payroll? the kid hasn"t played a game in the NBA yet? good luck guarding Shack and the boys while being 200 lbs soaking wet!!! I agree Oak would bring some balls to the line up....

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First of all, who the f**k are you to be insulting me unprovoked, and second of all, who the f**k are you?

As for Bargnani, he IS getting extra coaching. Most of the players do. And can we stop blaming others for Bargnani's shortcomings? The fact that Bargnani is a poor team defender has absolutely nothing with the fact that he hasn't been taught it and everything to do with the fact that it seems to simply be beyond him.

And if you can f**king read my post, I said that David is a better TEAM defender than Bargnani. WHat the f**k does that have to do with guarding Shaq, who, by the way, plays an entirely different position than Davis? And Davis DOES play better team defense than Bargnani. I know that because I've watched both of them play.

Bargnani's defensive and rebounding issues stem from a lack of talent and instinct in those areas. Even if he broke his arse trying as if his life depended on it he wouldn't be worth a damn in either area. Rather than hoping that he can turn into something he isn't and never will be, I'd prefer to pursue a running mate for him to hide his weaknesses, or deal him and start over

Didn't JO help Bargnani for a while in the big men camp? He did improve his blocking ability and man to man defense.... but rebounding...hmm

Please don't shoot the messenger

Maybe the Raps org thinks they have a good Big Mentor in ... Reggie Evans? I know what your thinking but maybe that's what theyre thinking. It is a huge issue that the Raps have never had a big man coach but the question then becomes who do you get?

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blackjitsu wrote:

Please don't shoot the messenger

Maybe the Raps org thinks they have a good Big Mentor in ... Reggie Evans? I know what your thinking but maybe that's what theyre thinking. It is a huge issue that the Raps have never had a big man coach but the question then becomes who do you get?

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What makes you think they never have had a big man coach? Are you trying to tell me that when the team breaks into guards and bigs, there isn't any coach for the bigs?

I've said it before, but Pete Newell is the perfect example. A 6'2 guy from Vancouver who never played professional basketball in his life was probably one of the best big men coaches who ever lived. He had more influence on more big men in the NBA than anyone. He taught a lot of the Hall of Fame big men.

I've taught a number of big men how to play team defense, and I can usually tell pretty quickly whether a guy is going to get it or not. The guys that don't almost never end up getting it.

The problem with teaching Bargnani how to play team defense is that there's a huge difference between knowing what you're supposed to do in certain situations and being able to do it instinctually. For a guy like Bargnani, team defense should be instinctual and you can't teach instincts.

Hey Tim W

Ya maybe I should rephrase my statement but to my memory there's never been an assistant whose only job was to tutor our bigs. From my perspective coaching has become more and more a segmented job. If we talk about things outside of sport where instinct is taught -- like music -- the most consistent commonality is repetition -- Training repetition and analyzing repetitive movements. As talented as our staff is, they have other roles. Our bigs need someone who will follow them around, talking to them constantly, working with them every free moment to turn learned skills into instinctual movements. I certainly did not mean that the "Big" coach needs to be a big themself. My bad on the confusion.

You're right, even with that amount of attention some will still "not get it". But I would argue that we won't know until we give our bigs maximum exposure to specialized coaching. I don't see Toronto giving their bigs that sort of attention.

Wow hit a nerve !!! Is Howard receiving any coaching? answer the question? does Howard have any shortcomings? Unbelievable that Dwight is receiving additional coaching and yet Bargs is a dumb f*** who in your mind is a write off.The thread was "can we get just one big man to teach andrea defense" not team defense,if you read the title thread you arrogant f***...man to man Bargs holds his own.Take your sorry ass back to the picket fence and blow Khandor...or are you Khandor's bitch!!! Hey I like the Rook Davis,but in all fairness he hasn't played a fu... minute in the NBA..watching Davis play NCAA is not the big show..Get over yourself.

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Tim W. wrote:

First of all, who the f**k are you to be insulting me unprovoked, and second of all, who the f**k are you?

As for Bargnani, he IS getting extra coaching. Most of the players do. And can we stop blaming others for Bargnani's shortcomings? The fact that Bargnani is a poor team defender has absolutely nothing with the fact that he hasn't been taught it and everything to do with the fact that it seems to simply be beyond him.

And if you can f**king read my post, I said that David is a better TEAM defender than Bargnani. WHat the f**k does that have to do with guarding Shaq, who, by the way, plays an entirely different position than Davis? And Davis DOES play better team defense than Bargnani. I know that because I've watched both of them play.

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d279 wrote:

Wow hit a nerve !!! Is Howard receiving any coaching? answer the question? does Howard have any shortcomings? Unbelievable that Dwight is receiving additional coaching and yet Bargs is a dumb f*** who in your mind is a write off.The thread was "can we get just one big man to teach andrea defense" not team defense,if you read the title thread you arrogant f***...man to man Bargs holds his own.Take your sorry ass back to the picket fence and blow Khandor...or are you Khandor's bitch!!! Hey I like the Rook Davis,but in all fairness he hasn't played a fu... minute in the NBA..watching Davis play NCAA is not the big show..Get over yourself.

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Yes you hit a nerve. I dislike it when pricks I have never had any contact with come out and personally insult me for no reason. I'm funny that way. I try and actually be respectful to someone, whether I disagree with them or not. Unless of course they call me an arrogant SOB, or some other lovely insult.

As for Howard, yes he gets extra coaching. I'm pretty sure Bargnani does, too. Just because you don't see it on NBA TV doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Did Orlando hire Ewing to coach Howard? Yes. Can you say with any certainty that it has helped? Absolutely not. Especially since his scoring actually went down last season. And then he went and worked with Olajuwon last summer, because apparently working with Patrick Ewing wasn't enough.

Besides, my point, if you actually read it, was that Bargnani has had plenty of time to learn how to play team defense. It's never been a matter of no one showing him how. Olajuwon, Bill Russell, David Robinson, Ewing and Dikembe Mutombo could join the team as assistants whose sole purpose it was to teach Bargnani team defense and it still wouldn't make a difference because the problem is not that he's never been taught it. It's that he can't play it.

And if you're going to insult me, make sure you actually know what you are talking about. Take a look at the title of the thread. It's called "Can we get jusy ONE BIG MAN to teach andrea team defense??" Yes TEAM defense. Not "can we get just one big man to teach andrea defense" not team defense, as you claim.

As for Davis, it doesn't matter where the guy has played. If you watch him you can see he understands team defense. He knows when to rotate, where to go, etc. It's pretty much instinctual with him. The only thing he's going to have to adjust to is the speed of the game. The basics, he's got.

In the future, may I suggest not coming out of the gate with an insult to someone you've never had a conversation with. It might make your discussions a little more civil.

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Tim W. wrote:

I'm not sure what you think a veteran big man is going to do that all the coaches Bargnani has had over his entire career, as well as guys like Nesterovic, and Moses Malone, who tutored him in the summer of 2009, have done. Before you make broad assumptions, ensure you know what you are talking about. By the time a player gets to the NBA, team defense should be mostly instinctual. .

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Are you suggesting that a Big man Coach can not help AB at all and it is too late ?

I said it before and I say it again, Raptors need a Big man Coach so bad. With Amir, Daivs, AB and Alabi all having no post moves and ... this team needs a good big man coach.

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Tim W. wrote:

I'm pretty sure Bargnani does, too. Just because you don't see it on NBA TV doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
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I see. We should just take your word for it :)

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Tim W. wrote:

Did Orlando hire Ewing to coach Howard? Yes. Can you say with any certainty that it has helped? Absolutely not.
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Why NOT ? If the Magic organization thought that it did not help Howard, I am sure they would have fired Ewing by now.

I think you are really reaching with your logic in this case.

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Raptor4Ever wrote:

Are you suggesting that a Big man Coach can not help AB at all and it is too late ?

I said it before and I say it again, Raptors need a Big man Coach so bad. With Amir, Daivs, AB and Alabi all having no post moves and ... this team needs a good big man coach.

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I'm not suggesting a big man coach can't help Bargnani. The thread is about teaching Bargnani how to play help defense. No one is going to get him to learn it if he hasn't by now.

Learning things like post moves etc, generally isn't done during the season. Especially for a player who plays a lot of minutes. These types of advancements are generally made during the summer, when a player can concentrate on it. During the season, there just isn't a lot of practice time, and most of that is going over gameplans.

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Raptor4Ever wrote:

I see. We should just take your word for it :)

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No, but why does everyone assume that nothing is being done with him?

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Raptor4Ever wrote:

Why NOT ? If the Magic organization thought that it did not help Howard, I am sure they would have fired Ewing by now.

I think you are really reaching with your logic in this case.

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I've heard a lot of questioning being done about whether Howard has gotten any better on offense with Ewing. Either way, you guys seem to be focusing a whole lot on what Orlando is doing with Dwight Howard. Do the Lakers have a dedicated big man coach? What about San Antonio, or Portland, or most of the other teams? Personally, I don't know. But people are talking as if it's such an obvious thing to do when I really don't think it is.

I think the Raptors have enough smart coaches on the payroll that, more than likely, one or two of them know how to teach big man skills. You don't need a former NBA center to teach someone well.

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