Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

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Raptor4Ever wrote:

Damn, you are such a simpleton Pal. He slipped in 2009 draft from top five to 13 and then keep on slipping further in the Bulls, so bad that a guy who was picked 26 was played over him.

Then his slippage continued till he found himself in the D-League, ridding bus from a City to City and not getting even 5 minutes in NBA. Damn, that is a good reason to be excited about.

Come on Pal, you don't believe the stuff you write here , do you ?

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You see you lose all credibility when you don't have the facts.

Davis slipped from top 5 in 2009 to 13 in 2010. He had 11pts/11rebs in championship game when UNC won the title 2 years ago and of course broke his wrist last season in February.

James Johnson was selected 16th overall by Bulls in 2009.

Obviously you don't read the stuff I write here regardless of whether you, I, or anyone else believes it because you would have seen quite clearly where I said Bayless and James Johnson are not in the same categroy of prospect as Ed Davis. To spell it out for your, Ed Davis has a much higher ceiling than either of Bayless or JJ.

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RaptorsFan4Life wrote:

DAntoni?
LOL

Demar as #1 option?
LMFAO! If that's what we're planing we're screwed. Demar has potential but he's shown no signs he can handle double teams. Just go look at the games where bargs wasn't playing.

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Guys have to play against double teams consistently before they can beat them. Demar is putting up the same kind of scoring numbers in his second year as many great players have. He also is already becoming a fantastic midrange player which is the area of the court that truly great scorers generally make their bread. Give him sometime before you laugh.

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Matt52 wrote:

Obviously you don't read the stuff I write here regardless of whether you, I, or anyone else believes it because you would have seen quite clearly where I said Bayless and James Johnson are not in the same categroy of prospect as Ed Davis. To spell it out for your, Ed Davis has a much higher ceiling than either of Bayless or JJ.

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We were talking about James Johnson and not Ed Davis and you came and throw in the Crap about Slipping in a 2009 draft and ... so I thought you are talking about James Johnson.

No one here is denying Ed Davi's talent. Heck, I say trade Amir so Ed can have more minutes because he is already better than Amir. That being Said, Ed is not offensively very polished. His strength is rebounding and defense. Read more about him.

You can not turn him into the focal point of your offence and expect him to score 25 point at ease like AB does. This is why AB goes very well with Ed.


At the end of the day, it is BC that needs to go. If he trades AB, this means that he wasted all that time and money on a failed project. Add to that all the other mistakes and many times that he changed focus and direction and you soon realize that the problems with Raptors in not the Coach or Players but the GM itself.

i hear one of stephen curry or monta ellis is available, and while i doubt it with philly's recent sucess,but, iggy was/is(?) available.

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LBF wrote:

i hear one of stephen curry or monta ellis is available, and while i doubt it with philly's recent sucess,but, iggy was/is(?) available.

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No to Iggy. If Iggy was a winner he would have done it already in Phily. I also highly doubt it if they will trade Curry but Ellis and his big contract might be available.

I will take Ellis especially if we are going to move AB. Both Amir and Ed are offensively handicap and we would need alot of production from our 1 and 2 and 3 if we want to have Amir and Ed on the floor at the same time.

That being said, I rather us trade away Amir and get a NICE size Center and not play with a 220 lb , undersized Center like Amir that can get pushed around under the basket.

Ellis (Trading AB + Amir) DD
Ed Davis Center ( From Trading AB+Amir) SF (From Draft)

Bench: Barbosa, Evans, James Johnson,...

Hopefully, BC will be able to move Jose, Bayless, Weems, Acinja and ...

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Matt52 wrote:

When a roster is constructed that fits D'Antoni's system, his teams have been successful, and by successful I mean Slighty above average in defensive rating. The roster in NY is nothing like what he worked with in PHX and it does not suit the team moving forward. BC and MD'A need each other right now.

"but isnt he the quintessential DAntoni player?"

I disagree. Bargnani can shoot but he lacks the explosiveness and athleticism seen in D'Antoni typical starting big men and ruggedness of bench big men.

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I suppose one formulates an opinion many times by what one reads and hopefully the material is by people supposed to be in the know. One such item is this link.

As for AB being the "quintessential" DA type of player...he can run the floor for a big man, he can shoot from whereever (spread the floor), is mobile enough for a big man to not only take on the opposing check and play the PnR game, and of course doesnt play defense :) :)

To be serious though we can quibble about my choice of descriptive but I doubt DAntoni would/could not embrace AB into his system. If he couldnt I would then really have to call his coaching bonafides into question. I fear though that his system is flawed primarily because it is not sustainable and difficult to put together the personnel required and then of course retain because of external cba factors. The system has a very narrow window.

To recap:

You:

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This is big mistake !! Neither Ed or DD are the type of Players that you focus your rebuilding process around. They are just nice player to have just like AB is. AB provides the void and the gap that is in the ED's offensive game.

I think Jay and BC are looking for escape goat and AB is that person which they can use to blame the defensive woes on.

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Me:

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You know ED is a 21 year old big man who had wrist injury last year and knee injury to start this season who has a soft touch and developing jump shot who is shooting 60% from field and who had 19 and 21 points in last two games?

To say he has a gap in his offensive game is very premature in my opinion.

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You:

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Again, you guys are jumping up and down without realizing the real talent the same way you did for James Johnson or Bayless.

No one denys that Ed Davis is a great player. I am actually advocating moving Amir because Ed will be a head and shoulder above him next season. BUT Ed is not a center player to a winning team. He is just a small part of puzzle. Same goes to DD. They are good to great player to have in a a team but not what a team should be build around.

You build a team around Natural born leaders, a real star and then you use the guys like Davis and DD to complement him.
Look at Chicago Bulls, they did not build the team around Noah. They build it around Rose and used players like Noah to complement it.

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Me:

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Jumping up and down for a prospected top five pick in 2009 who slipped to 13 in 2010? I guess so. Jj or Bayless are not in the same class of prospect as ED is and I have never said they were.

I for one have never said Ed is a C.

Ed, AB, DD are all pieces. None of them are franchise players.

Thanks for the tutorial on building a winning team. Question for you: who was drafted first, Noah or Rose? You build a team around what you have and hope to get as lucky to go from 9 to 1st overall in a draft with a franchise PG.

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You:

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Damn, you are such a simpleton Pal. He slipped in 2009 draft from top five to 13 and then keep on slipping further in the Bulls, so bad that a guy who was picked 26 was played over him.

Then his slippage continued till he found himself in the D-League, ridding bus from a City to City and not getting even 5 minutes in NBA. Damn, that is a good reason to be excited about.

Come on Pal, you don't believe the stuff you write here , do you ?

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Me:

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You see you lose all credibility when you don't have the facts.

Davis slipped from top 5 in 2009 to 13 in 2010. He had 11pts/11rebs in championship game when UNC won the title 2 years ago and of course broke his wrist last season in February.

James Johnson was selected 16th overall by Bulls in 2009.

Obviously you don't read the stuff I write here regardless of whether you, I, or anyone else believes it because you would have seen quite clearly where I said Bayless and James Johnson are not in the same categroy of prospect as Ed Davis. To spell it out for your, Ed Davis has a much higher ceiling than either of Bayless or JJ.

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You:

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We were talking about James Johnson and not Ed Davis and you came and throw in the Crap about Slipping in a 2009 draft and ... so I thought you are talking about James Johnson.

No one here is denying Ed Davi's talent. Heck, I say trade Amir so Ed can have more minutes because he is already better than Amir. That being Said, Ed is not offensively very polished. His strength is rebounding and defense. Read more about him.

You can not turn him into the focal point of your offence and expect him to score 25 point at ease like AB does. This is why AB goes very well with Ed.


At the end of the day, it is BC that needs to go. If he trades AB, this means that he wasted all that time and money on a failed project. Add to that all the other mistakes and many times that he changed focus and direction and you soon realize that the problems with Raptors in not the Coach or Players but the GM itself.

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Summary of discussion thus far:

You said AB was valuable because he fills the gap left by ED.

I countered mentioning his injuries as obstacles to his development while highlighting his desirable offensive traits and two recent games where he is averaging 20 points.

You replied questioning my ability to judge talent bring up Bayless and JJ, implied I thought ED was a C, and used incorrect facts to prove how to build a winning team using Chicago as an example.

I replied stating facts: JJ and Bayless are not in the same class of ED as a prospect, ED is not a C, all the Raps players are pieces - none are franchise players, and corrected your flawed argument.

You replied with insults and wrong facts.

I replied fixing your incorrect statements and facts.

You replied with excuses as to why you were wrong laying blame on thinking we were talking about James Johnson (who you brought up) when the discussion has been ED offensive inabilities in your view compared to my view of it being a little too early to question his offensive abilities, you then discuss ED's abilities while bringing up Amir who has no relevance in this discussion and implying I know nothing about ED by suggesting I read about him, you then suggest making ED the focal point of the offense which I have never suggested and say ED and AB compliment one another, and you finish with another irrelevant point in this discussion of BC needing to go.


To which I reply:

ED has a soft touch, high FG%, has shown the ability to knock down the 15ft jump shot, and does a phenomenal job of creating his own offense on the glass. He has had numerous injuries in the last year possibily slowing his development on the offensive end of the court. He has shown progress and being a 21 year old rookie it is much too early to say he has a gap in his offensive game.

If you want to make this statement in the here and now, yes, I agree.

If you want to make this statement as a truth going forward, which I have interpreted from your comments about needing to keep Bargnani, then I 100% disagree. It is far to early to judge his offensive abilities (this has been the point of all my comments).

The Raptors are currently awful and are at best 2 seasons away from competing. If Bargnani, or any other Raptor, can be traded that makes the team better not only now but, more importantly, in the future then they should do it.

None of ED, DD, or AB are pieces to build around. They are all complimentary pieces (to which I think we both agree). The difference is ED is a rookie, DD is a 2nd year, and AB is in his 5th season. The ceilings on ED and DD are much higher than Andrea given age and experience. The fact AB has shown the ability to play on just one side of the ball is an indication that, of the three pieces mentioned, he should be the first to be moved. The fact ED is a good defensive player and still developing his offensive game would severely call in to question your orginal post:

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This is big mistake !! Neither Ed or DD are the type of Players that you focus your rebuilding process around. They are just nice player to have just like AB is. AB provides the void and the gap that is in the ED's offensive game.

I think Jay and BC are looking for escape goat and AB is that person which they can use to blame the defensive woes on.

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Why would Colangelo hire D'Antoni? It's like a big FU to MLSE and the fans, organization. Since, its exactly more of the same.

My dream scenario is for the team to bring back Smitch (yeah, I said it) or Butch Carter. This team needs a coach who isn't afraid to bench players who aren't playing defense.

For the team to have the worst defense in the league for two straight years, is inexcusable.

I'll believe it when I read it and see it happen. Right now, this speculation is more of rumour mongering a la TMZ. I will maintain that if , BC returns, Bargs is going nowhere...

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Bendit wrote:

I suppose one formulates an opinion many times by what one reads and hopefully the material is by people supposed to be in the know. One such item is this link.

As for AB being the "quintessential" DA type of player...he can run the floor for a big man, he can shoot from whereever (spread the floor), is mobile enough for a big man to not only take on the opposing check and play the PnR game, and of course doesnt play defense :) :)

To be serious though we can quibble about my choice of descriptive but I doubt DAntoni would/could not embrace AB into his system. If he couldnt I would then really have to call his coaching bonafides into question. I fear though that his system is flawed primarily because it is not sustainable and difficult to put together the personnel required and then of course retain because of external cba factors. The system has a very narrow window.

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I'm not sure what the link is suppose to do. The journalist obviously has an axe to grind and admits himself:

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Defensively, General Manager Steve Kerr has every right to ask for more. Despite their soft image, the Suns have shown an amazing ability to play lock-down defense when absolutely necessary. They did it in those last two playoff games against the Spurs. But they won't do it consistently because their coach doesn't demand it, teach it or drill it into their heads.

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The writer, and many critics of D'Antoni, point to the high number of points per game but ignore his offensive system allows that. Comparing D'Antoni's defensive results to other teams only using opponents points per game is comparing apples to oranges. If you look at the number of points given up per game compared to the league, then yes, they play little to no defense. In Phoenix, opponents PPG ranked 25th in 2008, 23rd in 2007, 28th in 2006, and 30th in 2005. This is to be expected considering opponents get many more FG attempts in the 7 second or less offense. However those same years if you consider their defensive rating (points per 100 possessions) they were 16th in 2008, 13th in 2007, 16th in 2006,and 17th in 2005.

For me I see a contradiction in the writing of the link and a slanting of facts. D'Antoni was the martyr when the owner brings in Shaq without or ignoring the coach, refuses to resign Joe Johnson, and trades away numerous first round draft picks and useful veterans to avoid taking on salary. When one considers the deep playoff runs that were achieved by D'Antoni in light of this and the string of bad luck that ended playoff runs, I think he did pretty good. Also consider the year Stoudemire was out for the year they still won 54 games, that is impressive and a testament to BC's acquisition of talent on the roster.

While the author of the link is entitled to his own opinion, it is like that of an armchair GM. He writes this:

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So, after their fourth consecutive bout of playoff failure, Kerr has every right to ask D'Antoni to adjust, and it could be an easy fix. Kerr can bring in a few operational bench pieces and a defensive specialist as a head coach, a guy that can take over the last 20 minutes of practice.

This shouldn't be such a terrible blow to the ego, and if D'Antoni wanted to be a championship coach and not a gimmick coach, he should embrace Kerr's input.

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With the benefit of our hindsight, we know how Kerr's GM tenure worked out in PHX. Those who can do, those who can't write about it - like me!


I think we might have to agree to disagree on Bargnani being "quintessential" DA type of player. Look at D'Antoni's starting big men: Marion (17/11rebs, super athletic), Stoudemire (20+ppg, 9rebs, super athletic), Shaq (banger and semi-athletic at this stage of his career), Turiaf (athletic and banger) . Now look at his bench: Kurt Thomas (banger in the later stages of his career), Bo Outlaw (athletic banger), Diaw (all around offensive game and great defensive player). I do agree that D'Antoni could make Bargnani work in his system but it would not be ideal.

Most systems employed by coaches will have flaws. D'Antoni's is it gives the other team many more possessions. However, when you have the best offensive rating and an average defensive rating (13-17), I like those odds over the long haul. I do not think it is fair say it is difficult to sustain and keep together the personnel required when the owner would not do what it took to keep the acquired personnel to be successful (i.e. go in to the luxury tax). If Sarver had been willing to spend, I do not think the roster would have been so depleted and I also do not think BC or D'Antoni would have left PHX prematurely. All my opinion.

Take a look at Phil Jackson and the triangle. His (or Tex Winter's) sytem requires certain players and has had much success because the owners were willing to spend to acquire and retain top talent to win (LAL and Chicago, to some extent). The fact Phil Jackson has had some of the greatest players to ever play has not hurt either. I do not think BC or D'Antoni were given every opportunity to succeed in Phoenix given the penny pinching owner. The CBA allowed the Suns to keep their roster together with Birds Rights and improve via the draft as first round picks are permitted to go over the soft cap and luxury tax threshold but the owner did not avail or was unwilling to do so.

Currently in NY, the Knicks were the toast of the town before the trade for Melo. Now with the roster gutted, D'Antoni and Walsh are taking the fall for the owner changing the plan mid-season.

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RaptorsFan4Life wrote:

DAntoni?
LOL

Demar as #1 option?
LMFAO! If that's what we're planing we're screwed. Demar has potential but he's shown no signs he can handle double teams. Just go look at the games where bargs wasn't playing.

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Are you upset that no one is loving your Rap Boyz in Weems and Bargnani? I'm still can't figure out your obsession with these two.

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Raptorsss wrote:

Why would Colangelo hire D'Antoni? It's like a big FU to MLSE and the fans, organization. Since, its exactly more of the same.

My dream scenario is for the team to bring back Smitch (yeah, I said it) or Butch Carter. This team needs a coach who isn't afraid to bench players who aren't playing defense.

For the team to have the worst defense in the league for two straight years, is inexcusable.

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If you are going by defensive rating then yes the Raptors have had the worst defense two straight years. If you are going by opponents points per game they are 27th last year and 26th this year. The fact they are nothing more than an average to below average offensive team this year makes it all the wore (16th PPG, 22nd offensive rating).

As for D'Antoni, again I have to disagree. In Phoenix, opponents PPG ranked 25th in 2008, 23rd in 2007, 28th in 2006, and 30th in 2005. This is to be expected considering opponents get many more FG attempts in the 7 second or less offense. However those same years if you consider their defensive rating they were 16th in 2008, 13th in 2007, 16th in 2006,and 17th in 2005.

Colangelo and D'Antoni made each other look very good in Phoenix.

In 2008, Mitchell had a O/PPG of 10th and defensive rating of 13th. PPG scored 13th and offensive rating was 9th. 2007 defensive was 16th O/PPG and defensive rating was 12th. Offense was 11th and 12 for offensive rating.

Comparing D'Antoni's numbers with BC and Mitchell's numbers with BC and success each had, I would take D'Antoni any day of the week.

Use Bargs to get a pick in the top 5. Grab a PG and a SF...

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Matt52 wrote:

To recap:

None of ED, DD, or AB are pieces to build around. They are all complimentary pieces (to which I think we both agree). The difference is ED is a rookie, DD is a 2nd year, and AB is in his 5th season. The ceilings on ED and DD are much higher than Andrea given age and experience. The fact AB has shown the ability to play on just one side of the ball is an indication that, of the three pieces mentioned, he should be the first to be moved. [/B] The fact ED is a good defensive player and still developing his offensive game would severely call in to question your orginal post:

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I believe you’re quite mistaken. Andrea had an arguably more productive rookie year then Ed in the same amount of minutes. As well he never had the opportunity Ed has had until this year. Ed has been given every opportunity to develop his game in his ROOKIE YEAR because we are a rebuilding team and have had nothing to play for all year. Andrea although he technically has played 5 years in the NBA we could argue he's never had a defined role or purpose until this year. If you look at his stats from previous years you'd be able to understand he has been misused and underdeveloped by his previous coaches and circumstances and his numbers reflect this (random and no consistency). Unlike Ed who have been given the green light from day 1 Andrea had to earn his playing time because the Raptors were playoff contenders and had veterans who needed minutes. The goal was making the playoffs as appose to developing young players. Who knows where Andrea's game would be today if we treated him like Ed from day 1. I consider this season a benchmark year for Andrea, just like it has been for Demar and a lesser extend Ed. If anything you should be judging his future based upon this year not his previous 4. And because of this I believe he has the a higher ceiling than Ed.

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jlongs wrote:

So in essence it's like saying: "Get ready Canada! In the next few years you will be seeing...well...more of the same."

What would be the difference with D'Antoni and Triano? They both only really care about offense. Good news on the Bargnani one though. AT LEAST they are finally considering it. As for Ed and DeMar...I don't really think they are the "building around" type of guys. They are more complementary pieces than anything, and right now they aren't even legit starters (yet).

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+1, what is the difference between D'Antoni and Triano? They are both offensive coaches and do both care about defensive plays or even know what defense is? Yeah, I thought as much. If the D'Antoni potential hiring is not a tip that BC still believes in all the "offense, no defense" bullshit, I don't know what is ***. We need a new GM and a good defensive coach (Jeff Van Gundy is unemployed for christ sakes!, why don't we give him a call? ***) imo.

At least, there are new teams to support - the post-Melo Nuggets and the Portland Trailblazers always overachieving every year with debilitating injuries and going to the playoffs in the tough, tough West are options.

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Apollo wrote:

Ed and DeMar are excellent building blocks. I think they can land a very nice PG or wing for Bargnani. This draft is loaded with bigs and so we all need to start looking at them because where the Raptors are probably picking, chances are there's a new lottery big man heading to Toronto.

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If we can get Raymond Felton (since he wants a starting job and he is a backup in Denver) and Wilson Chandler or Aaron Afflalo from a Bargs trade - that trade will not be bad imo. I don't see how the Denver Nuggets are going to pay Nene Hilario, Kenyon Martin, Wilson Chandler, Aaron Afflalo imo.

When this happens i will believe it for now its a rumor .thats just it A RUMOR

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Balls of Steel wrote:

Are you upset that no one is loving your Rap Boyz in Weems and Bargnani? I'm still can't figure out your obsession with these two.

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Him and raptors4life have foursomes with those 2 everynight.

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Raptors_ wrote:

Him and raptors4life have foursomes with those 2 everynight.

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Was that really necessary? Can we please keep this civil?

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malefax wrote:

I wonder if his 0 rebounds might have something to do with the bone spurs in his ankle that caused him to miss the clippers game on the very next day.

Nah, that would make too much sense.

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he has zero every game have an excuses for that?