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To the people calling for Bargnani's head because of his comments: how many of you actually speak 2 languages? Do any of you understand how easy it is for something to get taken out of context when said by a non-native speaker? Whether Bargs said it in English himself, or someone translated word for word, it doesn't give us a clear understanding of what he meant. Languages have very different nuances, hence the saying "lost in translation".
What can i say, Tim W. brings out the best in everybody.Quote:
Apollo wrote:
Something about the way he phrases his posts that kinda irks people. Ive had my discussions with Tim and in the beginning i was a little annoyed but once you know how he really is then youll understand his side.
Ive already told Tim before that he's too authoritative with his posts, like when he says, "I dont want this on my team", or "This is not how its done" etc etc and he acknowledge it. Overall, everyone has their own opinion so i think everybody just has to respect that.
Spread the love! hahaha
When Colangelo left Phoenix, one of the main reasons was that he had a meddlesome owner who wouldn't allow him to do what he wanted. Considering the level of respect around the league Colangelo had at the time, he could pretty much write his own ticket, and I guarantee one of them was that he had full control over all basketball decisions. If he felt otherwise, I don't see there would have been any way he would have re-upped.Quote:
tbihis wrote:
Lots of player's with "potential" have gotten coaches fired unjustly over the years. Colangelo had a lot more invested in Bargnani than he did Mitchell, who he didn't even hire in the first place. When Colangelo took over, Mitchell was already in place and many thought he would replace him, but he was under contract, so gave him a chance. he ended up winning Coach of the Year the first year under Colangelo. Are you going to fire him, then? Besides, Bargnani had a fairly decent rookie season. In his second year he regressed. And Mitchell was fired early the next season.Quote:
The buzz was Mitchell got fired for not playing Bargnani enough, and if your coach gets fired while youre still on the team, i guess that constitutes that even if you are not a perfect player, youre still doing some good things, otherwise, they wouldve traded you out instead of replacing the coach. What im trying to say is BC sided with Bargnani, so i dont think he was on his case much earlier than you were assuming.
If you look at his stats, Bargnani was getting 3.9 rebs during year 1 and improved to 6.2 in year 4. He was avging .8 blks his 1st year and jumped to 1.4 his 4th year. Im not saying his numbers were great, but he was showing improvement from year to year, which, i presume, was the result of him putting in effort. Now in his 5th year, when he becomes the focal point of everything, he regresses. What changed? His effort? Maybe. The trainer's focus on his abilities to develop? Maybe. I think there were many, many factors on why he regressed, but clearly, he puts in the effort and time to improve as his stats clearly show, so i think there might be more things going on that just position and being lazy.
I think youre just isolating that fact that its just Bargnani who controls everything in his career, unfortunately, i dont think thats how it works in the NBA. Talent is first, then effort, but you are surrounded by trainers, nutritionist, coaches, assistant coaches, GMs who tell you on a daily basis how to move, eat, post up, defend, etc etc. I get where youre coming from with the initiative factor, but not everybody has initiative. And I dont think management told him not to play defense or rebound, but they probably, unconsciously instilled in him that they want him to make an effort MORE in scoring rather than rebounding and defending. And as ive said before, before the Raptors drafted him, he already played 4 years in the Euroleague, not even amateur ball, and he was never a big rebounder or defender, he was always branded as a scorer. and starting at such a young age, it probably got instilled in him that i am and will always be a scorer.
Maybe Colangelo thought Mitchell's tough love approach might help Bargnani, but when it was apparent it didn't, Colangelo tried a different approach. Under Triano, he was allowed to just go out and play.
And, unfortunately, Bargnani didn't improve as much as it seems. The improvements in rebounding and blocks were not due to Bargnani improving, but by him simply getting more playing time. If you look at his per 36 numbers, he slightly improved his rebounding, but not his blocks, steals or assists. His opponent PER didn't get any better and his defensive rating actually has gone down every year. The only area he's shown any consistent improvement in is scoring. And a lot of that is due to him getting more shots.
As for who is at fault, maybe he could have gotten better coaching and backing, but I have a real big problem when you blame others for your shortcomings. Unless Bargnani is a moron, and I don't think he is, it's been pretty obvious what he's needed to improve on every year. And he's been told this every year. Do you really want to keep a player that needs extra cajoling just to make basic improvements in his biggest areas of need? Especially when other plays don't seem to need it. DeRozan went into the summer knowing exactly what he needed to work on and made improvements in those areas. Same with Amir. Calderon even improved his defense. Hell, even Reggie realized he needs to take fewer shots and did just that.
It's like a girl whose boyfriend beats her when they fight, but apologizes about it and keeps saying he's going to change. At some point, the girl has to realize that it's not her, it's him.
Bargnani has had 5 years to show improvements in his two biggest areas of need and hasn't. At what point do you start to think that it's him, it's not us?
Ya, I can rub people the wrong way sometimes. It's a talent, what can I say. Apollo and I have had many disagreements that got a little heated, but it never resorted to immature namecalling and ignorant slurs.Quote:
tbihis wrote:
On a side note, I'm surprised you get annoyed when I say, "I don't want that on my team". I always felt this was simply another way of saying, "in my opinion". I'm simply stating it's my preference.
Ironically, the persona I seem to have on forums like this are not at all what I tend to be like in real life. Well, not entirely, anyway. In real life I am a bit of a smartass, but I think the two words that are used most to describe me are easygoing and sarcastic. I actually tend to be the guy who gets along with just about everyone.
There was more to it than that. Sam Mitchell wasn't a "yes man". He's a lot tougher and hardheaded than Jay Triano. Colangelo needs somebody who is going to carry out his vision of the Toronto Raptors without question and his vision of the Toronto Raptors back then was not tough, blue collar basketball. Sam Mitchell wanted them to play like he did as a professional but the problem was Colangelo wasn't giving him enough of those kind of players. LaMarcus Aldridge was more of that kind of player and so was Tyrus Thomas(I'm not saying either should or should not have been the #1) but Colangelo took Bargnani. Bargnani is the anti-Sam Mitchell. They were destined to fail together. From everything I read Sam did everything he could for Andrea to make him "get it" but he wasn't allowed to give Andrea the "tough love" that he needed. He did it anyway at times, benching him or chewing him out. I guess in Colangelo's books, putting a boot to Bargnani's butt is insubordination.Quote:
tbihis wrote:
The funny thing is that the team they have now, excluding Bargnani and Calderon who both are probably done, would be a perfect fit for Sam Mitchell.
I don't care who likes who or who dislikes who. All I care about is that we all treat each other with respect or at least be civil. Normally I would delete crap like Nick wrote but Tim handled it well and I felt it was important to leave Nick's post as an example of what not to do. If we delete junk posts like the one on the last page every time then no one takes anything away from it.Quote:
tbihis wrote:
My only regret was that Sam never got the chance to develop Rudy Gay along side of Bosh. I think he was the perfect coach for this type of player. I think it would have boosted both Gay's career and Mitchell's. Andrea was an odd match from the start.
I honestly think that tandem would have been much more productive to our city than what Bryan chose.
I don't think Gay was seriously being talked about as a #1 back then though. Near the end it was a two horse show, Bargnani and Aldridge.
Agreed. We were all about drafting Gay, till we got the 1st over all pick. Than we all started fantasizing and romancing the #1 selection.
Great point! Refreshing to hear some balanced opinions.Quote:
Matt52 wrote:
We all expected the Raps to be a bad team this year, but then when they played bad, dumb fans started piling all the blame on one guy (the best player!). The guy (Bargnani) was the center of attention for opposing defenses, was playing in the front-court with rookie and foul-prone hackers, and played for a team that wanted to tank (probably kinda hard to hustle when your franchise doesn't even want to win).
Individual defenders don't suddenly make teams great defensive teams (or terrible, in the case of 'bad' defenders); teams play good defense when the team has a good team-concept (coaching, and having all positions filled...ie. center), and most importantly, when the entire team actually plays as a 'team.' The Raptors are a collection of young, individual players. Is Bargnani a good defender?, absolutely not. But if he was on a real team, his defense would not be the topic of a fan forum discussion board.
Before fans start booing and breaking out the pitchforks, jettisoning yet another talented player, how about we realize that this team is presently young and incomplete. Bargnani isn't the savior, but he also isn't the cancer you guys are making him out to be.
Absolutely. The interviewer is very smart (his name is Tranquillo tranlslated in english is Quite --> LOL) and all the discussion has had this imprinting.Quote:
joey_hesketh wrote:
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Maybe we are thinking he is being prima donna when he is actually being realistic of his abilities.
I wonder if his questioning of role was along these lines:
I'm not a true C and there has never been a big banger with me to play PF or C,
I'm not a franchise player yet I advertised as one, and
I'm not paid like Kobe, LeBron and the crew, so quit expecting me to be like those guys.
In those cases, he has a point and it is fun devil's advocate.
I guess the egg is on our faces for even letting him into that role. Players in this league would fall to their knees to be put in such a position. It is so hard to get playing time, and Andrea does not seem to understand that because he was brought up with the the team constantly conforming and changing to his style. Moves were made to make Andrea look good instead of the team.
At this point he feels he doesn't need to do anything to change his game or to try to put in more hustle for the team, the team must change to suit his abilities.
In reality all he is saying is "Look, I am not that good, and I don't like the pressure of this situation".
Next.
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Is it possible to move this thread off the "hot topics" section, as the whole "wants to play somewhere warm" has been discounted, and not worthy of wasting any more of our time (and mine).
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This thread isn't 3,500 posts about warm weather.Quote:
RapthoseLeafs wrote:
If Bargs lost some water weight and worked on being more flexible, worked on defense, played at the 4.
I think he can become a premier PF in this league, wait did I just describe Dirk?
Oh geez, I'm just waiting for Tim to come on and say that the video didn't show any highlights of Bargs playing help D or rebounding, probably because none exist. But, I liked watching the highlights. Dude is talented and can put up points.
I always believed that Bargnani had the potential to become a Dirk-like player. After watching Dirk in game three tonight, and seeing how gritty/ballsy/legendary he is, I am 100% positive that Andrea doesn't have, and never will have, that kind of fire in his game. I like Bargs, but I'm not drinking that koolaid anymore. He's good, and I even believe he'll turn into an all around contributor someday, but he doesn't have it.
Bargnani should never have been compared to Dirk in the first place. You can predict statistical contribution, but not heart and drive. Dirk is special.
I will be frustrated beyond belief if Bargs is still on this roster come opening night. He is the worst defender I have ever seen and puts no effort to run to the other end of the court and make a block. He gets exploited all the time by elite players like Rose and others .Did you guys notice how much better on defense this team played with Bargs shelved with the foot injury?