Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

the usual suspects are at it again...

when you evalute a players effectiveness on an individual basis you can clearly pinpoint scoring and rebounding as two direct stats which are representitive of a players individual value. Leaving the team concept out of the equation for argument sake, from our 2010 roster Andrea ranked first in scoring and 4th in rebounding. Last year was his fist season being the teams featured offensive player and he produced better offensive numbers than all but 14 players in the WHOLE league. So for those critics to keep putting him down must cleary beleive offense is not valued in this league,, and in that case i consider those critics watch another sport soccer perhaps?

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DunkinDerozan wrote:

the usual suspects are at it again...

when you evalute a players effectiveness on an individual basis you can clearly pinpoint scoring and rebounding as two direct stats which are representitive of a players individual value. Leaving the team concept out of the equation for argument sake, Andrea ranked first in scoring and 4th in rebounding last year. Last year was his fist full season being the teams featured offensive player and he produced better offensive numbers than all but 14 players in the WHOLE league. So for those critics to keep putting him down must cleary beleive offense is not valued in this league,, and in that case i consider those critics watch another sport soccer perhaps?

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Why do you keep talking about his offense? No one is complaining about his offense.

You want stats to show a player's value to a team?

Own Opp Net On Off Net
17.1 21.3 -4.2 -6.5 -5.9 -0.5

http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR.HTM

Points and rebounds tell you very little about a player's worth.

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Tim W. wrote:

Why do you keep talking about his offense? No one is complaining about his offense.

You want stats to show a player's value to a team?

Own Opp Net On Off Net
17.1 21.3 -4.2 -6.5 -5.9 -0.5

http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR.HTM

Points and rebounds tell you very little about a player's worth.

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I think your missing the point... there are 15 players on a roster.. some score some rebound some pass some run faster some jump higher.. the point is you assemble a team where players compliment each other.. for example bargnani can play inside and out which helps spread the floor for his teamates... and a defensive center would help bargnani on defense by ancoring the paint blocking shots etcc... you sign or get players who help solve a problem, you dont trade your best scorer because he's not your best defender as well

Barney die.
Get thee hence.
Go mess with someone elses team.

We do not want you.
We do not need you.
We know you are simply baggage.
We will not miss you.

Get. The. Hell. Out.

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DunkinDerozan wrote:

I think your missing the point... there are 15 players on a roster.. some score some rebound some pass some run faster some jump higher.. the point is you assemble a team where players compliment each other.. for example bargnani can play inside and out which helps spread the floor for his teamates... and a defensive center would help bargnani on defense by ancoring the paint blocking shots etcc... you sign or get players who help solve a problem, you dont trade your best scorer because he's not your best defender as well

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Your last line is exactly what bothers me about people who attempt to defend Bargnani. I mean, really. Is this your defense? That people want him to become the team's best defender? No, obviously not, so let's not put it in the argument because it lowers the rest of your argument.

And I think you mistake players filling roles with players being liabilities. Reggie Evans, for example, is one of the best rebounders in the entire league. He's also not very good at anything else, and in fact horrible on the offensive end (well, except for offensive rebounding). He shot barely 40% from the field, despite hardly ever shooting outside of 2 feet.

Julian Wright is one of the best defensive players on the Raptors, but because he can't be trusted to hit a jumpshot, it makes his defense far less valuable.

Sometimes being really good at something, while being extremely bad at other things nullifies what you do well. And that's unfortunately the case with Bargnani. Were he an All-World scorer, then I can see jumping through hoops to try and surround him with players that will attempt to hide his liabilities. But the fact is he's really not that great a scorer. He's never been very efficient and, while he does create mismatches, he goes through far too many stretched when he does absolutely nothing.

And have you ever stopped and thought that maybe the only reason Bargnani is the team's leading scorer is because they really don't have much talent? I mean, who cares who your best player is if your team only wins 22 games.

Oh, and I recommend you read my recent post about Bargnani...
http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfen...s-of-bargnani/

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ceez wrote:

from everything i heard i'll be shocked if he's dealt. the dirk comparisons were a little nauseating.

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I don't know. With the lockout looming and teams looking to shed miserable contracts, we can't know for sure if they're just misinforming the league/media/fans. I wouldn't be shocked one way or the other. It's just too tough to say right now.

In any case, prior to and just after the draft we'll all have some sort of closure.

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Tim W. wrote:

Your last line is exactly what bothers me about people who attempt to defend Bargnani. I mean, really. Is this your defense? That people want him to become the team's best defender? No, obviously not, so let's not put it in the argument because it lowers the rest of your argument.

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I think that's a bit harsh.

The one thing that no one has about whether Bargnani would be a better player (and part of a winning team) if paired with a defensive C is empirical data. We can all state our arguments until we're blue in the face, but the fact remains that none of us know. Both arguments have merit, and maybe after the draft we'll know if we're going to be in line for some of that needed data.

All I know is Bargnani looked a hell of a lot less of a liability in those games Reggie was doing his work for him before he got hurt.

Can we prove that he would be better playing along side a strong defensive center who rebounds well? No but it's common sense we're talking about here.

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10 000 Hours wrote:

I think that's a bit harsh.

The one thing that no one has about whether Bargnani would be a better player (and part of a winning team) if paired with a defensive C is empirical data. We can all state our arguments until we're blue in the face, but the fact remains that none of us know. Both arguments have merit, and maybe after the draft we'll know if we're going to be in line for some of that needed data.

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There is also no empirical data as to whether Kwame Brown would have success with a Dirk-like PF. There is no empirical data as to whether Adam Morrison would be a better player with a pass first PG. There is no empirical data as to whether Patrick O'Bryant would be a better player with a defensive stopper at C.

You can use that argument a thousand times from sunday for every player who has ever played in the NBA. This is his 6th season in the NBA. We know what kind of player he is. Why do people want to try and fit a team around him. He needs to fit a team.. if he can't then he needs to move on.

The ONLY reason people talk about this is because of Dirk. But Bargnani is not Dirk. Bargnani is closer to Channing Frye than Dirk. (I would also mention that Bargnani had Jermaine O'neal for half a season and that didn't exactly lead to anything special).

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GarbageTime wrote:

There is also no empirical data as to whether Kwame Brown would have success with a Dirk-like PF. There is no empirical data as to whether Adam Morrison would be a better player with a pass first PG. There is no empirical data as to whether Patrick O'Bryant would be a better player with a defensive stopper at C.

You can use that argument a thousand times from sunday for every player who has ever played in the NBA. This is his 6th season in the NBA. We know what kind of player he is. Why do people want to try and fit a team around him. He needs to fit a team.. if he can't then he needs to move on.

The ONLY reason people talk about this is because of Dirk. But Bargnani is not Dirk. Bargnani is closer to Channing Frye than Dirk. (I would also mention that Bargnani had Jermaine O'neal for half a season and that didn't exactly lead to anything special).

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Difference is that Bargnani is one of the most talented centers in the league, Patrick O'Bryant, not so much.

Get a defensive C won't fix anything. Tell me, honestly why having Bargnani matched up against generally far, far more offensively potent PFs would help him on D? We can't just stick the C in the starting lineup. Bargnani would still have to get much better at rebounding and defense himself.

And if that doesn't work, his trade value will be shit.

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JoePanini wrote:

Difference is that Bargnani is one of the most talented centers in the league, Patrick O'Bryant, not so much.

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Isn't that exactly what this debate always has been? Is Bargnani one of the best, or one of the worst Cs in the league.

Anyways it has nothing to do with how much or little talent he has... but rather the idea that there is a lack of data in a given situation to properly judge Andrea's worth/value/talent. I just pulled 3 names out of a hat... pick any name of any player to ever play in the NBA and replace them with Kwame, Morrison, and O'Bryant

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GarbageTime wrote:

Isn't that exactly what this debate always has been? Is Bargnani one of the best, or one of the worst Cs in the league.

Anyways it has nothing to do with how much or little talent he has... but rather the idea that there is a lack of data in a given situation to properly judge Andrea's worth/value/talent. I just pulled 3 names out of a hat... pick any name of any player to ever play in the NBA and replace them with Kwame, Morrison, and O'Bryant

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I personally don't think putting Bargnani with a defensive center is the main goal. If he improves and becomes an average defender and an average rebounder who plays with effort every night, then having a defensive center with him would make him pretty effective. If you put Bargnani with a guy like Chandler, Bargnani won't feel the need to improve his defense and rebounding and his responsibilities on defense. So I'm against putting Bargnani with a defensive center, only because I feel we shouldn't be building around Bargnani. If Casey can't get some basketball outa Bargnani, it's time to deal him. If he does start playing defense and rebounding, decently, then I'd think that putting him with a defensive big would definitely make him a huge threat.

Bargnani is, one of the most talented centers in the league. Talented doesn't mean good, as he definitely hasn't reached his full potential, problem is, he doesn't seem to care or want to reach it... He's definitely not one of the worst Cs in the league, right now I'd put him right in the middle.

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10 000 Hours wrote:

I think that's a bit harsh.

The one thing that no one has about whether Bargnani would be a better player (and part of a winning team) if paired with a defensive C is empirical data. We can all state our arguments until we're blue in the face, but the fact remains that none of us know. Both arguments have merit, and maybe after the draft we'll know if we're going to be in line for some of that needed data.

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The line I was referring to was "you dont trade your best scorer because he's not your best defender as well". And that's a ridiculous statement. Obviously you don't trade him if he's not your best defender, but you very well might want to trade him if he's one of the worst defenders in the league. BIG difference.

bargnani is the softest player with a 7 foot big body i have ever seen. i mean this guy cant rebound the ball and he has a height advantage. if bargnani want to stay with the rap, he better start player more aggeressively. other wise just trade him b4 deadline. picking bargnani 1st overall was the biggest mistake.

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JoePanini wrote:

I personally don't think putting Bargnani with a defensive center is the main goal. If he improves and becomes an average defender and an average rebounder who plays with effort every night, then having a defensive center with him would make him pretty effective. If you put Bargnani with a guy like Chandler, Bargnani won't feel the need to improve his defense and rebounding and his responsibilities on defense. So I'm against putting Bargnani with a defensive center, only because I feel we shouldn't be building around Bargnani. If Casey can't get some basketball outa Bargnani, it's time to deal him. If he does start playing defense and rebounding, decently, then I'd think that putting him with a defensive big would definitely make him a huge threat.

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So it's kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't. I think it's a very good point. Bargnani certainly didn't work very hard on defense or on the boards playing beside Reggie, Amir and Davis.

And the problem with waiting to see if Casey can get something out of him is that if he doesn't, then he'll probably be incredibly difficult to get anything of value back for him at best, and trade him at all, at worst.

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JoePanini wrote:

Bargnani is, one of the most talented centers in the league. Talented doesn't mean good, as he definitely hasn't reached his full potential, problem is, he doesn't seem to care or want to reach it.

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I'm not sure I agree. Bargnani is definitely one of the most talented players OFFENSIVELY. But I think defensive and rebounding talent are too often overlooked or at least under appreciated. Is Biyombo any less talented than Bargnani because his talents happen to be in different areas than Bargnani? Defense and rebounding are skills. They are skills that Bargnani simply lacks. Being PHYSICALLY able to do something is very different from ACTUALLY being able to do it.

just trade him so we can close this thread

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NoPropsneeded wrote:

just trade him so we can close this thread

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lol - agreed

sign me up. ;)

So what happens with Bargs now? I get Bargs is a 4 and blah blah blah but now Ed ISN'T starting and Amir is the second big off the bench. Hes paid WAY too much to be the second big off the bench. I guess they figure Ed is a year away from starting? He's too talented to come off the bench. I find it all weird.