Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

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Apollo wrote:

I agree with this partially but I will say that it's not that simple. There are some Toronto team fans who have proven time and time again that once someone gets on their bad side it's really tough to "redeem" themselves. Mats Sundin is a prime example. The guy gave his heart and soul to his club and still he received b.s. from some fans and some media right up until he left. They didn't know what they had. I'm not comparing Bargnani to Sundin but if he does turn it around I fear it will never be enough for some fans and some media.

Do I think he'll turn it around? That is irrelevant to the point I am making. I will say I have seen enough amazing turnarounds in sports to know not to rule anything out. If it happens he has my full support. If it doesn't happen and there is no sign of things changing by the end of the season then I expect something to be changed in a more drastic way, like a trade... Especially if there is a PF in the draft who fits well here.

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The number of leaf fans who didn't like Sundin, over the course of his career, is small. Near the end of his career things were different, but they felt the team needed to change direction, rebuild, and he was the best trade chip the team had and his age prevented him from being a long term player. Since he didn't want to give up his no trade clause, alot of fans were bothered by it. But that just goes to show no player is above the the welfare of the team. I for one felt the same way with Bosh. I always felt he was overrated and overpaid, but a very talented player and deserving all-star none the less. Yet when he turned down the contract extension I thought it was in the best interest of the team to trade him. I could care less that he was a reliable 20 and 10, that he had been the best player on the team for 5 years.... his trade value was at its maximum, he wasn't a franchise player and there was no guarantees he was sticking around long term. I heard it out the wazoo how I wasn't a 'real fan', that I didn't understand basketball etc etc.

There are no doubt fans who dislike a player, or will always dislike a player, for whatever reason they have. I'm not sure expecting 100% support of a player (any player) is realistic or reasonable. If Bargnani turns it around I guarantee the vast majority of fans will be supportive and excited about him. Will some not? ofcourse. But they will be few and far between.... and I don't think anyone should expect everyone to have the same opinion, view, level of support, or whatever, of a player. Having dissenting or critical views is not a bad thing. It at the very least keeps everyone on their toes.

In one of Casey's interviews, he mentioned that professional athletes (in any sport) need to be comfortable with contact, and getting our guys to that point will be something he focuses on in training camp. I really liked hearing that. Last year, there were very few players (guards included) who would be willing to absorb bumps and bruises in the trenches, but I hope that changes throughout the course of the season.

Having played high school football in a past life, the first day of practice can be somewhat difficult to jump right into full contact drills. There's a slight element of fear that can cause a player to hesitate. But once contact becomes the norm, the players loosen up, brace for contact, hit harder, and believe it or not, get injured less often. The fear is gone.

I'm looking for that same mental "switch" to be flipped with the Raptors under Casey (with help from Magloire, Gray, Butler and Carter).

I played hockey competitively for all my childhood and teenage years. I hear you on the element of fear. I've seen some "superstars" in practice look entirely different come game time. I think the key is to just hit somebody. If you start hitting guys, initiating the contact, it gives you a greater sense of control. It opens you up and replaces hesitation/fear with adrenalin and fire. Then when the hits are coming your way you're thinking or reacting as opposed to panicking or cowering. I know it's not always that simple but the mind can be your best tool or your worst enemy.

One thing to note: If Bargnani improves his defense and rebounding under Casey, how long do we wait until we can confidently say he's "turned it around"? 10 games? 50 games?

If Bargnani comes out and averages 9 boards per game for the first 20 games, I will be pleasantly surprised. But those 20 games will not make me forget about the previous 367 games he's played.

My point is that, one way or another, we won't have much evidence to support his turnaround until we see at least a full season's work. But what the "haters" don't appreciate is that Bargnani has been given this many chances to prove his worth, because his presence on the roster significantly impacts the development of younger players.

Somewhere, I bet Joey Graham wishes the Raptors gave him a 6-year tryout. And if the Raptors did so, where do we think DeRozan's game would be right now?

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Nilanka wrote:

One thing to note: If Bargnani improves his defense and rebounding under Casey, how long do we wait until we can confidently say he's "turned it around"? 10 games? 50 games?

If Bargnani comes out and averages 9 boards per game for the first 20 games, I will be pleasantly surprised. But those 20 games will not make me forget about the previous 367 games he's played.

My point is that, one way or another, we won't have much evidence to support his turnaround until we see at least a full season's work. But what the "haters" don't appreciate is that Bargnani has been given this many chances to prove his worth, because his presence on the roster significantly impacts the development of younger players.

Somewhere, I bet Joey Graham wishes the Raptors gave him a 6-year tryout.

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That is a decision for Colangelo. The trade deadline is the 15th of March - or has been reported to be. The draft is June 28th. The summer offseason usually starts around July 8th.

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Nilanka wrote:

One thing to note: If Bargnani improves his defense and rebounding under Casey, how long do we wait until we can confidently say he's "turned it around"? 10 games? 50 games?

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Its not going to be overnight and it depends on your definition of "turning it around". Your interpretation if it could be different than mine.

Trading Bargnani doesn't have to happen at the trade deadline. I think it shouldn't. I think it should be at the draft at the earliest.

This has definitely been one of the more civil and well thought out threads about the Bargnani conundrum.

I prefer to see debates of this nature when it comes to Andrea. We all have our opinions of him good and bad, but at least the ability is there to be rational and non-offensive when it comes to discussing his future with the team.

My 2 cents? I'm in the hoping we can trade him camp. If he turns it around thats great, I'm just not a huge fan of players that have been in the league for years and need coaches to motivate them to play the game the right way. I prefer players that have that desire inherent within them.

Those guys are rare and those guys might not produce anything more than the guy who needs his hand held, after he finds his way. I don't care how they get there as long as they get there. My point of accountability above, if he feels accountable he'll get his "blue collar work" done. Surely now he knows the only way to improve is to open his game to areas he's been disinterested in the past. I've never heard a coach mentioned such positives about his approach and his game during camp like Casey is now. They have a greatly talented player with a major flaw and it's well known. Best case scenario is Casey helps fix it to some degree, worst case he fails. Either scenario he can be traded if it's to the best interest of the club but the best case scenario leads to a better return. He should stay the whole season at least.

Ehh... I still say that's extremely unlikely to "get it", let alone to improve enough to justify keeping him over Ed or Amir. I sincerely believe that, objectively, it's in the Raptors best interests to trade Bargnani.

I do hope that he improves, he was a fav player on the team for a long time. I was one of his few fans that actually stuck through that the now-or-never thing in his 5th season. But it's extremely unlikely he turns it around. To even get back to the level he was at before Bosh left is a huge leap.

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Tim W. wrote:

So, if your girlfriend constantly cheated on you, and cheated on everyone she's ever been out with, do you think you should ignore history and believe that this time it will be different? Or should you be forgiven for accepting that things will probably never change and move on? Which sounds more reasonable to you?

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I get your point, but the problem is, a cheating gf has no room for improvement. You cant monitor her 24 hours a day (unless youre a stalker), she can tell you one thing and do another without you knowing it. The difference with Bargnani is he can say he'll defend, and if he doesnt do it, then Casey will see it, and can show or instruct him on how to improve. Will he disobey? Sure. But im sure he'll get reprimanded. Can you tell your GF not to cheat coz if she does you'll reprimand her? I dont think so.

Also, your GF cheats on you, and you alone. Bargnani couldve "cheated" on Smitch, then Triano, do you think at this point Casey will allow it? Probably not.

And ive said before, once the season starts, history becomes after-the-fact. No one really knows what going to happen during the season. If Bargnani does play the same way he did last season when this season is over, you can go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back but again, its after-the-fact. you cant say he's going be the same way he was last season, unless you have a crystal ball.

sorry, but i think i went off topic there for a minute. what was being discussed was IF Bargnani turned it around, should people support him and if they dont, then that just means that its just beyond basketball, well, i can say youre probably one of those people. Even IF Bargnani turns it around, youll still be one of those people who'll have the past 5 seasons hanging over his head. And thats fine with me.

The problem with Tim's example is that he's using an example of man with no integrity to make a parallel to a man who's lacked maturity. People naturally mature, they don't naturally grow a conscience. Bargnani's accountability issues have nothing to do with lack of integrity.

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Apollo wrote:

Those guys are rare and those guys might not produce anything more than the guy who needs his hand held, after he finds his way. I don't care how they get there as long as they get there. My point of accountability above, if he feels accountable he'll get his "blue collar work" done. Surely now he knows the only way to improve is to open his game to areas he's been disinterested in the past. I've never heard a coach mentioned such positives about his approach and his game during camp like Casey is now. They have a greatly talented player with a major flaw and it's well known. Best case scenario is Casey helps fix it to some degree, worst case he fails. Either scenario he can be traded if it's to the best interest of the club but the best case scenario leads to a better return. He should stay the whole season at least.

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Agree. i find it fascinating that somebody would reward a player who finally works hard and pays attention, BY TRADING HIM!!!!! Just so they wont miss out! I think thats sending a bad message to the other players. Much like Lamar Odom being traded, at first i thought he was just being a sensitive little girl, but when you look at it, the guy just won the 6th man of the year, helped you win 2 championships, and didnt even give him the courtesy to inform him he's being traded. OUCH.

But hey, on the other hand, its a business. Thats what the professional basketballs has come to, a business.

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Apollo wrote:

The problem with Tim's example is that he's using an example of man with no integrity to make a parallel to a man who's lacked maturity. People naturally mature, they don't natural grow a conscience. Bargnani's accountability issues have nothing to do with lack of integrity.

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I guess i just said it using more words, hahaha.

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tbihis wrote:

Agree. i find it fascinating that somebody would reward a player who finally works hard and pays attention, BY TRADING HIM!!!!! Just so they wont miss out! I think thats sending a bad message to the other players.

But hey, on the other hand, its a business. Thats what the NBA has come to, a business.

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I think the fact that he's turned the page in camp, the fact that he has a new head coach who specializes in teaching and getting production out of players in the areas of his weaknesses certainly warrants a season of review. Like I said, worst case scenario you're trading him in the off-season and moving on then. It's not like they're a perennial playoff contender who needs to add defense right now it they want to stop the Heat and beat the Lakers in the finals.

This season is an audition for the "Dwayne Casey show". Those who hate Bargnani should want to hold on to him all season, I mean in their mind he's such a horrible player that he should improve their odds in the draft lotto, right?

I'm in agreement with Apollo and tbihis.

The excuses for Bargnani are just that - excuses. However many of them may (or may not) be valid. None of that really matters if he finally puts it all together. If he rebounds (and he has the physical abilities to do it) and plays defense (and he has the physical abilities to do) and starts playing a balanced inside-outside game (and he has the skills to do it) then he is definitely an all-star - maybe more.

I wouldn't look to trade him then as punishment for the last 5 years. However if there is a trade to be had that makes the Raptors better in the long run, then I'd be all for it.

Regardless what is in the Raptors best interest whether he is traded eventually or not is that he gets it - and the sooner the better.

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Apollo wrote:

I think the fact that he's turned the page in camp, the fact that he has a new head coach who specializes in teaching and getting production out of players in the areas of his weaknesses certainly warrants a season of review. Like I said, worst case scenario you're trading him in the off-season and moving on then. It's not like they're a perennial playoff contender who needs to add defense right now it they want to stop the Heat and beat the Lakers in the finals.

This season is an audition for the "Dwayne Casey show". Those who hate Bargnani should want to hold on to him all season, I mean in their mind he's such a horrible player that he should improve their odds in the draft lotto, right?

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Agree.

But to some people, apparently, he's been through new coaches, new camps, etc etc so nothing to be hopeful anymore.

Such negative nellys! hahaha

He's never had a Champion specialized in defense coach him on his main weaknesses, defense. Sam Mitchell could have done more if he were allowed to but even then, he never had the experience or the polish that Casey has. Mitchell improved a lot by the end but he wasn't where Casey is now. I'm really starting to like Casey. I went from on the fence to in his court.

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WhatWhat wrote:

Ehh... I still say that's extremely unlikely to "get it", let alone to improve enough to justify keeping him over Ed or Amir. I sincerely believe that, objectively, it's in the Raptors best interests to trade Bargnani.

I do hope that he improves, he was a fav player on the team for a long time. I was one of his few fans that actually stuck through that the now-or-never thing in his 5th season. But it's extremely unlikely he turns it around. To even get back to the level he was at before Bosh left is a huge leap.

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And I think thats the next level of the discussion.

Is the risk of keeping/building with Bargnani worth it? Its taking time and opportunities away from others, its using up cap space that could be used towards someone else and its forces the team to atleast look at (or avoid) certain unique/different players in order to get a 'fit' with Bargnani... and that time/touches/money in turn could be used for someone else aswell.

So for instance, Reggie last year was a clearly there to compensate for Bargnani's lack of rebounding. But if the team didn't have to worry about Bargnani's rebounding then Reggie could have been traded for another asset. Or Reggie could have been given less minutes for Amir/Ed/Ajinca or whoever.

Then there is also a possible decrease in his trade value if his performance doesn't improve, or god forbid, got worse.

There is an opportunity cost to Bargnani's minutes/contract/roster spot/touches. To me, every year this team repeats itself, it not only has lost more but has increased the level of the risk they take. At some point its just not worth it anymore, and its time to cut your losses.

Its not as if he hasn't been given ample opportunity to 'prove' himself. He is no longer a rookie or 2nd year player trying to get a feel for what he is capable of or what he needs to do. He's finished 5 years in the NBA, and taken the same approach to the game since his very first game.

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And ive said before, once the season starts, history becomes after-the-fact. No one really knows what going to happen during the season

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and what would happen if every player was treated that way? Joey Graham was mentioned already, but what about Roko Ukic or Jamrio Moon or Mike James?

What if Roko had been given 6 years? Had the right players fit around him? I didn't see fans saying 'oh well the team needs to give him more of a chance', 'his history to date is meaningless because anything can happen going forward'. Yet Bargnani gets it time and time again.

Why is it that Bargnani gets 'special' treatment that the vast majority of the league (let alone Raptors) would never, and has never, gotten? I'm not talking about the organization here (I think that comes from BC's ego and his philosophy of trying to build a 'european' team in Toronto) but from fans? We've seen players come and go like farts in the wind.... yet Bargnani's has been allowed to linger and apparently smells a little sweeter than anyone elses has. Is it just because he was a #1 pick and its tough to accept the pick didn't turn out as expected (or wanting it to turn out)? Is it purely his scoring? Is it a European thing where he has brought in a lot of fans from Italy or Europe and they want to support their nation/continent?

I understand people hoping 'this year' (whatever year that may be) will be different. I don't understand how that argument doesn't eventually get stale or wear on people.

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Matt52 wrote:

I'm in agreement with Apollo and tbihis.

The excuses for Bargnani are just that - excuses. However many of them may (or may not) be valid. None of that really matters if he finally puts it all together. If he rebounds (and he has the physical abilities to do it) and plays defense (and he has the physical abilities to do) and starts playing a balanced inside-outside game (and he has the skills to do it) then he is definitely an all-star - maybe more.

I wouldn't look to trade him then as punishment for the last 5 years. However if there is a trade to be had that makes the Raptors better in the long run, then I'd be all for it.

Regardless what is in the Raptors best interest whether he is traded eventually or not is that he gets it - and the sooner the better.

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Its not about punishing anyone.

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Matt52 wrote:

I'm in agreement with Apollo and tbihis.

The excuses for Bargnani are just that - excuses. However many of them may (or may not) be valid. None of that really matters if he finally puts it all together. If he rebounds (and he has the physical abilities to do it) and plays defense (and he has the physical abilities to do) and starts playing a balanced inside-outside game (and he has the skills to do it) then he is definitely an all-star - maybe more.

I wouldn't look to trade him then as punishment for the last 5 years. However if there is a trade to be had that makes the Raptors better in the long run, then I'd be all for it.

Regardless what is in the Raptors best interest whether he is traded eventually or not is that he gets it - and the sooner the better.

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Thank you!!!

Thats what ive been wondering all along, some people keep blabbing how he needs to improve, blah blah blah, and IF he improves, they still dont want anything to do with him.

Of course. If a deal comes along that would push this team to the next level and Bargnani is the casualty then sure. But to trade him IF he improves just so his value wont go down again is just hating. And personal, IMO.