Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

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You might say it was the system, you might say it was the coach motivating him,” Colangelo said. “Bottom line, he was better, he was more effective for us. Don’t really care why he was.”

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This mystifies me! You mean BC doesnt care why for 6 years AB could not be the best player or more "effective" he could be and not correct deficiencies in his game that most of the fan base could clearly see? WTF.

Wasn't that wasting the talents of the #1 pick for way too long? And mostly it seems because of bad coaching (interaction between player and coach it now seems).

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Bendit wrote:

This mystifies me! You mean BC doesnt care why for 6 years AB could not be the best player or more "effective" he could be and not correct deficiencies in his game that most of the fan base could clearly see? WTF.

Wasn't that wasting the talents of the #1 pick for way too long? And mostly it seems because of bad coaching (interaction between player and coach it now seems).

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Meh, just more excuses by Colangelo's for his golden child.

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Nilanka wrote:

Meh, just more excuses by Colangelo's for his golden child.

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Yes, excuses why they thought he did well. Oh no, wait.

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Bendit wrote:

This mystifies me! You mean BC doesnt care why for 6 years AB could not be the best player or more "effective" he could be and not correct deficiencies in his game that most of the fan base could clearly see? WTF.

Wasn't that wasting the talents of the #1 pick for way too long? And mostly it seems because of bad coaching (interaction between player and coach it now seems).

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One could say this is the best combination of events.
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• Bargnani showing that the level we've hoped for, is possible - and yes, the stats need to be more. If this is a reflection of Casey, then what happened Years 1 to 5, became simply part of the process.
  
• Year 5 (more specifically) and how it impacted Andrea's future (ie. the clock is ticking) may have been a faulted year of basketball - but it brought Jonas into the fold.
  
• Year 6 showed us what was not only possible from AB, but that his injury, as well as Jose's - along with others to a lesser extent - effectively got us 8th or 9th pick (most likely). That may have sucked with the tank crowd, but it could have been worse .... 14 or 15th - with an outside chance at a non-lottery pick. Had Dwayne Casey been given a real preseason & training camp, that later concept (of play-offs) would've been in the realm of possibilities.

Things happen for a reason. Sometimes in a painful way. But despite how one gets there, reality is you're there - enjoy it. Raptor fans spmetimes get wrapped up in the past - ala Vinsanity virus - however it's nice to see this year as that light appearing in the tunnel.

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Soft Euro wrote:

Yes, excuses why they thought he did well. Oh no, wait.

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Excuses for ignoring legitimate concerns, genius.

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Nilanka wrote:

Excuses for ignoring legitimate concerns, genius.

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I have to admit I still don't get it. Only explain if you have the patience for a less developed mind like mine.

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RapthoseLeafs wrote:

One could say this is the best combination of events.
.

• Bargnani showing that the level we've hoped for, is possible - and yes, the stats need to be more. If this is a reflection of Casey, then what happened Years 1 to 5, became simply part of the process.
  
• Year 5 (more specifically) and how it impacted Andrea's future (ie. the clock is ticking) may have been a faulted year of basketball - but it brought Jonas into the fold.
  
• Year 6 showed us what was not only possible from AB, but that his injury, as well as Jose's - along with others to a lesser extent - effectively got us 8th or 9th pick (most likely). That may have sucked with the tank crowd, but it could have been worse .... 14 or 15th - with an outside chance at a non-lottery pick. Had Dwayne Casey been given a real preseason & training camp, that later concept (of play-offs) would've been in the realm of possibilities.

Things happen for a reason. Sometimes in a painful way. But despite how one gets there, reality is you're there - enjoy it. Raptor fans spmetimes get wrapped up in the past - ala Vinsanity virus - however it's nice to see this year as that light appearing in the tunnel.

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That brings up an interesting though (well at least to me).

Vince Carter came in like a hurricane and fizzled soon after.

What if Bargnani came in with a whimper and leaves as the eye of the storm?

Before I get roasted for being a BC apologist or Bargnani fan boy, consider this:
Who saw, honestly, what would become of Vince Carter in Toronto during the epic slam dunk competitions? Or during the Eastern Conference Semi-Finals in 2000-01 in a season where the Raps went 47-35?


Things can change very quickly - both positive and negative.

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Soft Euro wrote:

I have to admit I still don't get it. Only explain if you have the patience for a less developed mind like mine.

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If you were Colangelo, wouldn't it be wise to know (or at least attempt to find out) what exactly it was that turned Bargnani's light on? Then he could do everything in his power to ensure those same variables remain during the remainder of Bargnani's career in Toronto.

The quote Bendit references above gives the indication that Colangelo believes the "new" Bargnani is here to stay, and implies that he doesn't care about any of the previous reasons (whatever they may be) that caused Bargnani to play half-assed,

I expect a little more diligence from a GM, especially in regards to his prized possession.

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Nilanka wrote:

If you were Colangelo, wouldn't it be wise to know (or at least attempt to find out) what exactly it was that turned Bargnani's light on? Then he could do everything in his power to ensure those same variables remain during the remainder of Bargnani's career in Toronto.

The quote Bendit references above gives the indication that Colangelo believes the "new" Bargnani is here to stay, and implies that he doesn't care about any of the previous reasons (whatever they may be) that caused Bargnani to play half-assed,

I expect a little more diligence from a GM, especially in regards to his prized possession.

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There is (of course) a difference between what he says in public and what they discuss within the organization. I think he only discusses players in public if he deems it benificial to the process.

Regardless, I don't think this has anything to do with 'excuses'.

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RapthoseLeafs wrote:

One could say this is the best combination of events.
.

• Bargnani showing that the level we've hoped for, is possible - and yes, the stats need to be more. If this is a reflection of Casey, then what happened Years 1 to 5, became simply part of the process.
  
• Year 5 (more specifically) and how it impacted Andrea's future (ie. the clock is ticking) may have been a faulted year of basketball - but it brought Jonas into the fold.
  
• Year 6 showed us what was not only possible from AB, but that his injury, as well as Jose's - along with others to a lesser extent - effectively got us 8th or 9th pick (most likely). That may have sucked with the tank crowd, but it could have been worse .... 14 or 15th - with an outside chance at a non-lottery pick. Had Dwayne Casey been given a real preseason & training camp, that later concept (of play-offs) would've been in the realm of possibilities.

Things happen for a reason. Sometimes in a painful way. But despite how one gets there, reality is you're there - enjoy it. Raptor fans spmetimes get wrapped up in the past - ala Vinsanity virus - however it's nice to see this year as that light appearing in the tunnel.

.

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I can accept the "things happen for a reason" philosophy....dont particularly believe in it...no offense but it strikes me of a superstitious mindset or of woulda coulda shoulda happenings. We can go all day about such possibilities.

I am referring here to the rather strange BC's "I dont care what happened in the past as long as Bargs has tuned in now" statement. And I am actually a BC supporter. The fallout for me in that statement/attitude is...what happens say with the upcoming draft pick who also ends up having some mental malady about the team or the coach or the city etc etc. Shouldnt the GM of the team do everything possible and use past experiences (like Bargs) to get to the bottom of what ails the guy? Or will he just wait for things to evolve over another 6 year period. The span of a basketball pro is not very long and that seeming inaction or disinterest can lead to a terrible waste.

Hey maybe its just semantics or he was being flippant or being short with the question asked. He has always pivoted well in my experience but this kinda stands out for me as being rather odd. Not cool.

ps...I would have preferred taking Bargs at his best in his third year. Maybe we would have been far ahead in the team's evolution than we find ourselves in now. Maybe Bosh would have been traded. Maybe we wouldnt have traded for Hedo. Maybe....

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Matt52 wrote:

What if Bargnani came in with a whimper and leaves as the eye of the storm?

Before I get roasted for being a BC apologist or Bargnani fan boy, consider this:
Who saw, honestly, what would become of Vince Carter in Toronto during the epic slam dunk competitions? Or during the Eastern Conference Semi-Finals in 2000-01 in a season where the Raps went 47-35?

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I'll say a few things to this. First, as I posted somewhere else in this thread, Bargs' numbers didn't actually improve year over year. Statistically, he's the same he was last year. When I asked earlier in this thread what specific improvements Bargs had made over last year, there was a single response from one poster: his help defense was better. Even there, his DRTG is just back to where it was under Sam Mitchell.

Second, we've seen Bargs play great before. Even back to the NJ Nets series in 2007 where he was arguably the best Raptor on the floor for games. It isn't like he hasn't had good 13 game stretches before. They just haven't been sustained. Just like this year.

Third, what is the development curve for NBA players? How many guys go from marginal starter to all-star/elite player/star/supertar in their seventh year? I just don't see anything suggesting next year is the year. We've been hearing that for 5 years. Enough already. He is what he is. He ain't getting any better.

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slaw wrote:

I'll say a few things to this. First, as I posted somewhere else in this thread, Bargs' numbers didn't actually improve year over year. Statistically, he's the same he was last year. When I asked earlier in this thread what specific improvements Bargs had made over last year, there was a single response from one poster: his help defense was better. Even there, his DRTG is just back to where it was under Sam Mitchell.

Second, we've seen Bargs play great before. Even back to the NJ Nets series in 2007 where he was arguably the best Raptor on the floor for games. It isn't like he hasn't had good 13 game stretches before. They just haven't been sustained. Just like this year.

Third, what is the development curve for NBA players? How many guys go from marginal starter to all-star/elite player/star/supertar in their seventh year? I just don't see anything suggesting next year is the year. We've been hearing that for 5 years. Enough already. He is what he is. He ain't getting any better.

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I really don't care to reply directly to the points raised in this post or offer a rebuttal. There is nothing new in there. I could add my 2 cents but I wouldn't be saying anything that has not been said previously in the 364 pages of posts.

In my post, I asked a question regarding, arguably, the two most famous/notorious Raptors in the franchise's short history.

Carter couldn't get any bigger initially in Toronto and then left as a chump who quit on his franchise in 2004. As per original post, who would have seen that coming in 2001?

(Incidentally Carter spent 6.5 seasons in Toronto and Bargnani just finished his 6th).

Many fans have your same opinion regarding Bargnani - and that is fine. It feeds directly in to the post I made - which was an attempt to add something new to the discussion.

Pretend it is 2016 and Bargnani has played on a healthy calf the last 4 years and is consistently playing like he showed he can this year in the first 15 games of the year and the last 5 he played. Combine his play with a winning franchise. I know the tunnel vision and preordained thought process regarding Bargnani forbid many from doing such a mental exercise but, please, just give it a try.

That is point which you have clearly made for me. Few people see Bargnani doing what I described. I'm not 100% convinced it can happen. However, if it did happen it would be quite a shock and it would certainly change perceptions on his overall Raptor career. Of course, the real die-hard detractors would probably be screaming, "But he only gets 5 rebounds a game! I don't care if the Raptor team out rebounds their opponents! I don't care if he is a key point of regular season and playoff success! He only gets 5 rebounds a game!"

Lets revisit this in 2016.

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Matt52 wrote:

That brings up an interesting though (well at least to me).

Vince Carter came in like a hurricane and fizzled soon after.

What if Bargnani came in with a whimper and leaves as the eye of the storm?

Before I get roasted for being a BC apologist or Bargnani fan boy, consider this:
Who saw, honestly, what would become of Vince Carter in Toronto during the epic slam dunk competitions? Or during the Eastern Conference Semi-Finals in 2000-01 in a season where the Raps went 47-35?


Things can change very quickly - both positive and negative.

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He doesn't have the motor to be an exciting talent now or in the future.
'eye of the storm' ? Just trade him to any GM who has the same opinion. Oh wait! there is no one out there who would make a serious offer for him.
Vince had the athleticism to be all-star talent. Bargnani's knees are giving away.

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draftedraptor wrote:

He doesn't have the motor to be an exciting talent now or in the future.
'eye of the storm' ? Just trade him to any GM who has the same opinion. Oh wait! there is no one out there who would make a serious offer for him.
Vince had the athleticism to be all-star talent. Bargnani's knees are giving away.

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You have clearly missed the point.

Vince's early career was fan favourite, left public enemy number 1.

What if Bargnani's early career was public enemy number 1 and leaves fan favourite?


Exciting is relative. I find Bargnani to be very exciting when he plays to his potential.

Tim Duncan sure relied on his exciting game to become a winner. This isn't about athleticism or excitement, this is about winning.

Are we comparing TimD to Bargnani now? 37 year old TimD is still way better than Bargnani in every way. He is a true F-C and MVP.

Kyle Korver is exciting when he comes in and shoots a few 3s. He is quite dependable too in his very limited role. But he is not good enough to be a winner or a starter. That sums up bargnani's role in any team. Bargnani is 27 and there should be no more talk about his 'potential'. It is either there already or not.

I am willing to stick with Bargnani but let us not overstate his importance. His scoring is the only thing going for him and even that will drop in a good offensive team where he cannot take 18 shots/game with better shooters around him. even jarett jack can put up big numbers taking more shots in a poor offensive team.

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draftedraptor wrote:

Are we comparing TimD to Bargnani now? 37 year old TimD is still way better than Bargnani in every way. He is a true F-C and MVP.

Kyle Korver is exciting when he comes in and shoots a few 3s. He is quite dependable too in his very limited role. But he is not good enough to be a winner or a starter. That sums up bargnani's role in any team. Bargnani is 27 and there should be no more talk about his 'potential'. It is either there already or not.

I am willing to stick with Bargnani but let us not overstate his importance. His scoring is the only thing going for him and even that will drop in a good offensive team where he cannot take 18 shots/game with better shooters around him. even jarett jack can put up big numbers taking more shots in a poor offensive team.

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You've missed another point. Winning is exciting and it doesn't matter how it is done. You said:

"Vince had the athleticism to be all-star talent. Bargnani's knees are giving away."

You don't need to be an athletic freak to be exciting. Tim Duncan is/was exciting to Spurs fans because he won.



The rest of the post is your opinion that is, well, your opinion.

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draftedraptor wrote:

I am willing to stick with Bargnani but let us not overstate his importance.

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or understate

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Bendit wrote:

This mystifies me! You mean BC doesnt care why for 6 years AB could not be the best player or more "effective" he could be and not correct deficiencies in his game that most of the fan base could clearly see? WTF.

Wasn't that wasting the talents of the #1 pick for way too long? And mostly it seems because of bad coaching (interaction between player and coach it now seems).

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I think what he was trying to get at was he didnt care how Bargnani changed, all he's concerned about is that Bargnani did change.

Im pretty sure he's pissed off at the fact that Bargnani struggled defensively the past 6 years, but he's relieved that now, he's not a total embarrassment for him and the Raptors anymore.

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Soft Euro wrote:

There is (of course) a difference between what he says in public and what they discuss within the organization. I think he only discusses players in public if he deems it benificial to the process.

Regardless, I don't think this has anything to do with 'excuses'.

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Exactly. I think we already know by now how egotistic BC is, he's simply showing his "i dont give a fuck attitude" but clearly, him picking up the option on DC contract suggests that he knows DC is one of the proponents of Bargnani's improvement, as well as the team.

Unfortunately, we all want people to be as literal as possible but with BC and DC, you always need to read between the lines.

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tbihis wrote:

Exactly. I think we already know by now how egotistic BC is, he's simply showing his "i dont give a fuck attitude" but clearly, him picking up the option on DC contract suggests that he knows DC is one of the proponents of Bargnani's improvement, as well as the team.

Unfortunately, we all want people to be as literal as possible but with BC and DC, you always need to read between the lines.

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And focus on what is not said.

Remember last year with JV? The Raptors organization said almost nothing about him until his name was called by David Stern.