Yes, a few dozen tweeters is going to make the Raptors' management act.
Yes, a few dozen tweeters is going to make the Raptors' management act.
Ummmm.... no. It is time to trade him!
There is that switch again.Quote:
It has been seven years, and the Raptors may have to simply accept that big man Andrea Bargnani, the No. 1 pick from the 2006 draft, will always have the limitations that have been obvious throughout his career.
Bargnani’s ability as a perimeter player has been his big positive, but he has never developed the post-up game the team had hoped for, and though he has gotten to be an average defender (that’s an improvement), he is still a poor rebounder. He has especially struggled this year, in which he has averaged 16.2 points on just 35.8 percent shooting. His 4.4 rebounds are his lowest average since his second season in the NBA.
And Bargnani has appeared frustrated at times during the year.
“Andrea is who he is,” coach Dwane Casey said. “If you’re looking for rah-rah guy that’s not him. He doesn’t show expression. Again that’s who he is. That doesn’t make him a bad guy or bad basketball player or whatever. But I do know that there are players who are like that who just don’t show any expression which doesn’t bother me. My thing is, you know, just be consistent. ... I don’t care about his expression. I don’t care if a guy’s a rah-rah guy or jumping up and down as long he’s putting the ball in the hole and playing defense.”
Bargnani himself admits that the Raptors’ record in recent years is wearing on him, and he feels some pressure to turn things around.
“Me personally, I would never say it’s too early to worry,” Bargnani said. “It has been four years now that we have had a losing record, so it’s definitely not early for me, Jose (Calderon), and the other guys that have been around. Nobody is thinking that it’s too early. We definitely have to turn it around and we are going to play better starting now.”
Actions speak louder than words.
just trade him. He can go feed that BS to the next team he plays for. Ship him to Denver to play along side his buddy Danilo
That being said, wtf happened Matt. I used to think of you as somewhat collected in your thoughts. Never imagined that I'd put you in the "Tim W. slot", when it comes to posts and such.
10 games - he's a C***** to you.
13 games - meh .... just an aberation. Personally I think he played more then 13 games at a good pace, but not really interested in arguing that.
Maybe AB's not destined for that All Star type player, and so being drafted 1st overall will continue to be his achilles heel. Idk.
Does this mean I accept bad games. Or disinterest. NO ... and NO. But I don't see a Super star coming our way any time. Not to sunny Canada! If anything I see Lowry, Jonas as potentials, with Demar & Andrea as outside shots. I'll acknowledge DD has been upping his value of late, but it's 10 games. So maybe he has a better chance of making that Star grade - I really don't know at this stage. Guys like Hollinger may have lit a fuse under his a$$. Remember Charlie V. then - pre-Stephen A$$ Smith. Remember Charlie V. now. Fame is fleeting for some. Others keep it going.
Suffice to say, there's a reason Casey plays him. Granted, I haven't been a fan of overusing Bargs, as Casey seems to do. But he's the Coach. And it's certainly not because BC makes it so. Give Casey some respect.
As for Tim's latest post - a repeat of 2 years ago - I prefer Grange, and his more methodical perspective. Some have considered Chisolm an idiot, excecpt when it befits a posters point of view. I don't mind Chisolm, as he does have some pertinent things to say.
Never-the-less .... kind of lost some respect for you Matt. Reminding me of Romney - and his ever changing thoughts. What really bothers me about Raptor fans these days, is how easy they turn on a player. Fields was a f*@king tool, then he's not - post surgery. Jose is a useless bum, then he's not. Demar was a "trade for 2 hockey pucks" before the season began. And Ed was a scoring machine, who should replace Andrea. Now he's offensively challenged. Tomorrow - who knows?
Point is .... we have a team. I prefer to get behind them, instead of resorting to the bi-polar persona, ever so popular around here at times.
Sorry Matt - but you seem like an anger managment case. At least to me.
I am not sure if all those points relate to me but here goes:
Fields is wait and see.
Jose is not a long term answer and any criticism has always been about his injury history. I said he played a good game yesterday - not sure how anyone could say anything else.
DeMar has played great and is living up to his contract. The contract still should not have been offered because the Raps lost significant flexibility via trade in early July. Raps could have matched anything. But if he continues playing as he has, he will earn every penney.
I don't think ED is a scoring machine. Never have.
I don't think I have anger issues but I certainly am angry with Bargnani - as a player. Sorry if years of backing him with nothing to show but 16/17 games doesn't make anyone else upset.
First up - let me post a few words from you in the past.
A reply to heinz57Quote:
uhhh... bargs is back and had a monster game.... what gives with it being like crickets in the busiest thread ever in the history of the board?
You had faith in the guy, but after 10 games - wtf happened. I know he's been sluggish this year, and everyone had high hopes that he'd instantly resort to 13 game (20 game to you) Bargnani. Yes, I'm disappointed in his play, with a few game exceptions. We won last game, and aside from 4 too many shots, I thought he played great. In Boston, he played like $hit.
My perspective on Andrea is not that he'll be a Star. My perspective is that - if he's a 6th man type - to which we've seen some talented players, then by all means, why can't this be his "resting place" for this team. And why can't Casey forge him into being a solid player. You said above that Mitchell was tough, but not respected. And that Jay T was too soft. Casey on the other hand, might be that guy.
My question is ... why not wait. What's the rush to slice off this arm of the Raptors ... so to speak. You of all people should know you get NO value for an asset under these conditions.
Anyways, that's why I was disappointed. You seem more level headed, as opposed to succumbing to the Hate Gang. You seem so enthralled by this pledge to get rid of Andrea - almost going above and beyond the call of duty - Tim W's duty that is. [Sorry Tim]
You say "why not wait"... but we have waited, everyone has waited for SEVEN years. If my math is correct approximately 486 games (minus games lost to injuries) we have waited. What reason is there to wait any longer?
I hate to break it to you, but Matt wanting AB gone is completely level headed. Not wanting him gone, on the other hand...
I'd be curious to see how Bargnani would handle the role of 6th man. I still can't get a grasp on what type of ego he has, because it seems like he just doesn't ever truly care. I'm afraid that he'd take it as a real demotion, and would in turn play even less inspired basketball(if that's possible). If he went to the bench, I'm assuming Amir would start. This would leave us with a starting 5, of which 4 don't really have an outside shot(assuming McGuire is still starting or Fields, and either Jose or Kyle is at PG), which really worries me.
This was the first off-season since '08 that I wasn't calling for Bargs to be traded, as I liked the idea of him being paired with a defensive minded C like Val. But he's still the same old Andrea, and he's not gonna change IMO. So for this reason, I'm back on the trade Bargs wagon. I have no more patience to watch him game after game, although I will be forced to.
Just think we spend too much time on the negative side of Toronto sports. No doubt with lots of practice. Maybe we need Jays to go all the way. Take some pressure off.
I know this Start is frustrating to watch, because we could be 5 - 5 ... with very slight change to the timeline. However, back when we were making Raptor predictions, many saw a season start constricted by its' tough schedule. I would have hoped for a record of 4 - 6, settling for - but not happy - to a 3 & 7 stat line. Even with a full time Lowry in the lineup.
Our competition went like this:
- Indiana (5-7 wth??)
- Brooklyn (6-2)
- Minny (9-5)]
- OKC (8-3)
- Dallas (6-6)
- Philly (6-4)
- Utah (6-6)
- Boston (6-5)
- and finally Orlando (3-7) ... our only equal. Unless you argue Orlando has 3 wins against other teams, relative to Toronto's two.
We almost beat Indiana twice. We should have beaten Indiana twice. Or maybe not. Who knows how the Pacers would've been pacing, had they lost that first game. Do we win that second game against the Pacers because Indiana read all the press clippings.
Dallas was at home - rested - when Raps showed up on the second night of a back-to-back [OKC first]. Raptors made it a game, one for which Andrea showed up as well. 25 points, 9 Rebounds, 3 Assists, 2 Steals, 7-7 from the line, and 9 for 20 in the field.
Until Lowry gets back, and our Secondary gets closer to a healthy status, it could be a rough ride. Kyle is the most important of those needs, because he changes not only Starter efficiency, he creates adjustment for the Bench's relative weakness - Offense. Having Calderon shuffled over, by virtue of a role that best fits this team, will mean a lot to the Secondary.
So ... in a nutshell (lol) ... I think this team, and all its' players ......... need a bigger sample before they truly be judged.
I did defend him through thick and thin. I was one of the few writing anything positive about him before the start of last season (although I did admittedly jump off the Bargnani wagon at the end of 2010-11 season). This is not about his poor numbers or production (although that is certainly a result). He is not only playing poorly but he is also playing unintelligent, selfish, and lazy basketball. The fact he was able to play last year without all of these characteristics only makes matters worse. He is currently everything Colangelo and BC have talked about Toronto basketball NOT being moving forward these last 2 years.
If you don't share my passion, so be it. Much like I have done with the 'hate gang' in the past, I am more than willing to agree to disagree. There is reason for optimism in Toronto right now but, unfortunately and in my opinion, it is clouded by the presence of Bargnani. As Axl Rose once sang, "It takes one bad apple to spoil the whole damn bunch."
I'm also well aware of Bargnani's 2 good games - which were both Raptor losses.
I'm also looking forward to Lowry's return. It appeared Bargnani was unable to coexist with a true talent and then he had those 2 good games but, alas, he is back to pre-Lowry injury form.
The team is certainly not being judged on 10 games. Bargnani, however, is being judged on 7 seasons. He is 27 years of age. He is who he is. He can turn his game on and off with the flick of a switch. There is so much talent. But what is the use and what is the point if he does not have the drive and desire to be his best? From watching the games, I can't see how anyone thinks he is putting in 100% effort at all times like is evident with players like DeRozan, Calderon, Lowry, and JV. What is the point of cheering for a guy who is not willing to lay it all on the line night in and night out for the paying fans and the fans watching on TV?
You know you are complaining about my negativity and focus. Maybe you should look at your own negativity bias. My posts of late have been complimentary to both DeRozan and Calderon. In fact I am ecstatic over DeRozan but just don't wish to jinx anything right now. I started a thread on Fields surgery that highlights the fact he is likely not a bust afterall. I continue to look for optimism in the youth of the team and the possible financial flexibility. I started a thread about the carryover of the roster for next season and the benefits of continuity. I was extremely happy to see Casey get back to a slower pace and grind out a win. I find the talk of Drummond over Ross amusing and think Ross is going to be a great Afflalo-type player.
Anyways, I do apologize for being a disappointment. I wish Bargnani would do the same.
Andrea Bargnani’s offensive game is, in theory, beautiful. The Toronto Raptors big man has the habit of putting together spurts during which he is unstoppable. He will take one controlled dribble to the side to elude a too-slow defender and unleash a feathery jumper. The ball will dip just in time, splashing through the mesh just inside the back rim.
During those spurts, he will sometimes go a few steps further. He will catch the ball on the baseline, take a few dribbles to blow by a defender, twirl and dunk the ball on the other side of the rim. Or he will get the ball in the post, dribble and turn around for a hook shot. He will get to double digits in scoring in an instant on the strength of these surges. For all of his flaws, Bargnani is tremendously gifted.
But as the years roll on, it is becoming more difficult to believe in those moments. Bargnani’s drawbacks are well documented, but even his offence exists more in the speculative world than the practical one. Bargnani has started the season averaging 16.2 points per game on 36% shooting. Following a three-game stretch in which he shot worse than 33% from the floor, his 7-for-19 effort against Orlando on Sunday was almost welcome.
He has performed poorly without star guard Kyle Lowry, who was brought in partly to make Bargnani’s life easier. But Bargnani is being paid US$10-million, a salary befitting a secondary star. Those players are supposed to be able to help carry the load when adversity hits.
Last year, in the 13 games he played before sustaining a calf injury that bothered him for the rest of the year, Bargnani supplied the best production of his career — averaging 23.5 points on 48% shooting while adapting well to Dwane Casey’s defensive system. In almost every imaginable way, he has regressed back to his old self to start this year.
“I’m going to push him and pull him as much as I can,” Casey said before the season started. “But it’s up to Andrea. The talent is there. He’s the only guy that can pull it out from himself. I think every method in the world, every scenario has been played for him for this organization.”
Bargnani has been typically maddening this season. In last Monday’s triple-overtime loss against Utah, he shot 3-for-4 in the first quarter and had an impact defensively. The rest of the way, he shot 2-for-13 and disappearing from the final 51 minutes as DeMar DeRozan, Jose Calderon and Amir Johnson tried to carry the Raptors to a win. That is Bargnani, at this point: reliably unreliable, varying from productive to lost within the span of single games.
Andy Lyons/Getty ImagesToronto Raptors' Andrea Bargnani has started the season averaging 16.2 points per game on 36% shooting. And that is just his offence. He has been poor defensively this year, and the Raptors have taken a major hit from last year. He is rebounding at the worst rate of his career this season, with DeRozan — a shooting guard who has grabbed a mere 6.7% of available rebounds over the course of his career — rebounding at a better rate than him.
Over the last five years, Bargnani’s individual defensive rating (the points per 100 possessions the Raptors allow when Bargnani is on the floor) has been equal to or worse than the Raptors’ team rating each season. And his offensive rating (the points per 100 possessions the Raptors score when Bargnani either shoots or turns it over) has only been better than the Raptors’ team rating once in that span — last year, when he had that career-best stretch of games to start the season. That means putting the ball in the hands of Bargnani with the expectation that he scores has been an inefficient proposition. That does not account for Bargnani’s ability to create shots for others. Quite frankly, he does not do that very well.
Without knowing the potential return, it is impossible to say for certain whether the Raptors should trade Bargnani. His detractors would argue that Bargnani has been a net negative for his entire career, with three different coaches, a few different roles and a cavalcade of different teammates. They would say it is nearly impossible to hurt yourself by trading Bargnani.
His most ardent believers would argue that his ability to stretch the defence makes life easier for his teammates, even (and maybe even especially) when he does not touch the ball.
One thing is for sure: It is time to stop judging Bargnani on what he might be able to do and start judging him on what he actually does.
Nice article by Koreen. Nails it.
Koreen most definitely nails it.
The stats from the chart at the bottom of the link is telling as well:
Here is a look at the Raptors' fortunes in comparison to those of Andrea Bargnani over the last four years. Also listed are the offensive and defensive ratings of Amir Johnson, the only Raptor to also serve in the frontcourt for each of the past four years. (Note: Johnson's offensive rating is not a good comparison for Bargnani's because Johnson is rarely counted on to score. When he does get the ball, it is usually in high-efficiency situations.)
2009-2010 Off. Rtg Def. Rtg
Team 111.3 113.2
Bargnani 108 113
Johnson 124 110
Team 105.9 112.7
Bargnani 105 115
Johnson 124 110
Team 100.8 104.5
Bargnani 104 106
Johnson 109 102
Team 102.5 106.5
Bargnani 93 108 .
Johnson 118 102
• Team offensive rating: the number of points a team scores per 100 possessions
• Team defensive rating: the number of points a team allows per 100 possessions
• Individual offensive rating: the number of points a team scores per 100 possessions when that player makes the final offensive play (shooting or turning the ball over)
• Individual defensive rating: the number of points a team allows per 100 possessions when that player is on the floor
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Send Matt your Raptors questions! #RTZ RT @MattDevlinRaps: #AskMatt tonight 7pm #Raptors v Philly on #TSN.
@MattDevlinRaps #Ask Matt #tradeBargnani #freeRaptorfans Matt: what is it going to take for the Raptors to trade AB7? enough is enough
@RaptorsPR @Raptors @MattDevlinRaps @ekoreen http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...-by-potential/ … Great article, Eric! #tradeBargnani #freeRaptorfans