Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

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Macc wrote:

You missed my point. Let me put it this way, if Perkins was on the Raptors roster last year, would you consider him a top 10 center? I think not. Would we as fans value him more than Bargnani? Maybe, and that's your point which I understand. But the topic is not about what makes a center more valuble, offence or defence. Top 10 centers are on winning teams in which most or all of the players on the team play above average defence. If Bargnani was on Boston and put up the SAME numbers his rank on the list of centers would skyrocket. If Perkins were to be on the Raptors and put up the same numbers, he wouldn't smell the top 20.

This is why I find it tough to rank players, especially centers. What I'm saying is, it depends on the team. Dwight Howard (imo) has a terrible post game (it is getting better) but he is surrounded by pure offensive ability (Lewis, Carter, etc.) and scoring is not Orlando's problem, so no one cares. So he is probably atop the list because of his great defence. But the Raptors problem is defence, and Bargnani doesn't provide that well, so he falls drastically.

I don't feel it's fair to bash him (this much) when he plays on a team where our best defender is probably a rookie (Davis).

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Why wouldn't Perkins have been considered a top 10 center if he were on the Raptors? In fact, away from Boston, he'd probably look better because he wouldn't be overshadowed by Garnett and company. If he were on the Raptors, I'm pretty sure their defense would have been a lot better and he would have been responsible for that. Perkins, no matter what team he is on, is an excellent defender and rebounder and pretty good scoring around the basket.

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Tim W. wrote:

Why wouldn't Perkins have been considered a top 10 center if he were on the Raptors? In fact, away from Boston, he'd probably look better because he wouldn't be overshadowed by Garnett and company. If he were on the Raptors, I'm pretty sure their defense would have been a lot better and he would have been responsible for that. Perkins, no matter what team he is on, is an excellent defender and rebounder and pretty good scoring around the basket.

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Being overshadowed is exactly one of my points. There would be more light on him on the Raptors and as they continue to produce L's we look at Perkins as a player who cannot score on his own and is a liability on offence.

He is not pretty good at scoring around the basket, unless he is wide open and gets a perfect pass from Rondo.

And one player does not make a poor defence team become a top 5 defence team in the league (especially Perkins). Bringing a player (i.e Garnett) can spark a team with already solid defenders, to play more intense defence. Perkins will not make Calderon a defencive stopper, or make him look anything like that.

Plus if we gave Perkins for Bargnani, I'd say we'd be last in defence AND offence.

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Macc wrote:

Plus if we gave Perkins for Bargnani, I'd say we'd be last in defence AND offence.

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That's giving an a lot of credit to Bargnani both offensively and defensively.

By your claims if we had Perkins instead of Bargs, our offense would drop from 5th to 30th. Our defense drops from 24th to 30th.

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JoePanini wrote:

Just something, Bargs had MANY blocks on guards running in for dunks and lay-ups. Just saying.

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I disagree. I'd say Bargnani was more reliable at getting out of the way of slashers, giving up on plays, and not challenging inside dunks and shots nearly as well or often as a center should than getting "MANY blocks." That is why many players attack him and he gets into foul trouble so often.

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CB4 wrote:

I disagree. I'd say Bargnani was more reliable at getting out of the way of slashers, giving up on plays, and not challenging inside dunks and shots nearly as well or often as a center should than getting "MANY blocks." That is why many players attack him and he gets into foul trouble so often.

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Bargs averaged 1.4 blocks a game. That's more than Horford and Shaq. He also blocked slashers ALOT. And about him getting into foul trouble "often", he only got into foul trouble when he got lazy, giving out stupid fouls. And just to let you know, he averaged 2.7 fouls in 35 minutes. Go check how other centers managed.

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JoePanini wrote:

Bargs averaged 1.4 blocks a game. That's more than Horford and Shaq. He also blocked slashers ALOT. And about him getting into foul trouble "often", he only got into foul trouble when he got lazy, giving out stupid fouls. And just to let you know, he averaged 2.7 fouls in 35 minutes. Go check how other centers managed.

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Of course Horford is a MUCH better defender than Bargnani, so that tells you something about how much indication blocks are of how good a defender a player is. Bargnani would get a block every now and then, but he also, more often than not, would fail to prevent a score inside by rotating late, or not at all.

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Macc wrote:

Being overshadowed is exactly one of my points. There would be more light on him on the Raptors and as they continue to produce L's we look at Perkins as a player who cannot score on his own and is a liability on offence.

He is not pretty good at scoring around the basket, unless he is wide open and gets a perfect pass from Rondo.

And one player does not make a poor defence team become a top 5 defence team in the league (especially Perkins). Bringing a player (i.e Garnett) can spark a team with already solid defenders, to play more intense defence. Perkins will not make Calderon a defencive stopper, or make him look anything like that.

Plus if we gave Perkins for Bargnani, I'd say we'd be last in defence AND offence.

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Well, first of all, Perkins is certainly not a liability on offense. Last season, he averaged double figures in scoring while being second in the league in FG%. Sure, he's not going to create much on offense, but he's got good hands and a pretty soft touch around the basket.

And I'm not saying he's going to turn the team into a top 5 defensive team. He's certainly going to bring improvement, though. Having a true defensive big man does wonders for a team's defense. A team can cover a poor defensive guard far easier than a poor defensive big man. San Antonio has been one of the better defensive teams even with Tony Parker, who's not very good defensively, precisely because they have a solid defensive front court.

And I think you give far too much credit to Bargnani's offense. He's a good shooter for a big man, but he can't create for himself, doesn't move well without the ball and is a poor post player. He still needs someone to create for him.

Hell, per 36 mpg, Bargnani only scored 4 more ppg than Perkins last season. I really don't think the offense would suffer that much, but the improvement on defense would be fairly big.

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Tim W. wrote:

Well, first of all, Perkins is certainly not a liability on offense. Last season, he averaged double figures in scoring while being second in the league in FG%. Sure, he's not going to create much on offense, but he's got good hands and a pretty soft touch around the basket.

And I'm not saying he's going to turn the team into a top 5 defensive team. He's certainly going to bring improvement, though. Having a true defensive big man does wonders for a team's defense. A team can cover a poor defensive guard far easier than a poor defensive big man. San Antonio has been one of the better defensive teams even with Tony Parker, who's not very good defensively, precisely because they have a solid defensive front court.

And I think you give far too much credit to Bargnani's offense. He's a good shooter for a big man, but he can't create for himself, doesn't move well without the ball and is a poor post player. He still needs someone to create for him.

Hell, per 36 mpg, Bargnani only scored 4 more ppg than Perkins last season. I really don't think the offense would suffer that much, but the improvement on defense would be fairly big.

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"True defensive big man" is that like the opposite of a "false defensive big man"?

If it is, would you then say that Bargnani is a "false defensive big man"?

Could you please define what a "true defensive big man" is?

Thanks

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Tim W. wrote:

Of course Horford is a MUCH better defender than Bargnani, so that tells you something about how much indication blocks are of how good a defender a player is. Bargnani would get a block every now and then, but he also, more often than not, would fail to prevent a score inside by rotating late, or not at all.

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Yeah, I mentioned the Horford thing earlier :) It pretty much proved your point on how blocks are overrated on defence. But still, I like him averaging 1.4 blocks :P HAHA. He got lazy many times, mostly in 4th quarters or after long stretches of play, and that's something he seriously needs to work on, because he'll be playing ALOT of minutes next year, but this time he'll have to put 100% effort for all 35 minutes.

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Buddahfan wrote:

"True defensive big man" is that like the opposite of a "false defensive big man"?

If it is, would you then say that Bargnani is a "false defensive big man"?

Could you please define what a "true defensive big man" is?

Thanks

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Nah, the opposite of true defensive bigman is false offensive smallman :) Okay, I should probably win the lame award of the year, but oh well :)

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JoePanini wrote:

Nah, the opposite of true defensive bigman is false offensive smallman :) Okay, I should probably win the lame award of the year, but oh well :)

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"False offensive small man" I like it:):)

Some false offensive small men in NBA history would include

Anthony Carter 6'1" and 5.0 ppg
Scott Brooks 5'11" and 4.9 ppg
Jacque Vaughn 6'1" and 4.5 ppg
John Crotty 6'1" and 4.0 ppg

All of whom were 6'1" or shorter, averaged 5 ppg or less and played at least 450 games in their respective NBA careers.

False Offensive Small Men

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Buddahfan wrote:

"False offensive small man" I like it:):)

Some false offensive small men in NBA history would include

Anthony Carter 6'1" and 5.0 ppg
Scott Brooks 5'11" and 4.9 ppg
Jacque Vaughn 6'1" and 4.5 ppg
John Crotty 6'1" and 4.0 ppg

All of whom were 6'1" or shorter, averaged 5 ppg or less and played at least 450 games in their respective NBA careers.

False Offensive Small Men

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HAHAHAHA I LOVE IT! But seriously Buddah, I love all the stats and all, but you really have way to much time! Go get married or something, and if you're married just do it again ;)

And Carter is seriously the best false offensive small man ever, c'mon. 20 mpg, 5 ppg. 40% fg%, 24% 3pg%, 70% ft%.

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Buddahfan wrote:

"True defensive big man" is that like the opposite of a "false defensive big man"?

If it is, would you then say that Bargnani is a "false defensive big man"?

Could you please define what a "true defensive big man" is?

Thanks

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I big man who can anchor the defense. He can play both man and team defense at a high level. Amir Johnson is a good defensive player, but he still has trouble against the stronger big men because he can't hold them off. I've no doubt that will change as he gets older and stronger. I see Ed Davis as having the potential to anchor a defense eventually, but like Johnson, needs to get bigger and stronger.

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JoePanini wrote:

HAHAHAHA I LOVE IT! But seriously Buddah, I love all the stats and all, but you really have way to much time! Go get married or something, and if you're married just do it again ;)

And Carter is seriously the best false offensive small man ever, c'mon. 20 mpg, 5 ppg. 40% fg%, 24% 3pg%, 70% ft%.

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I find it interesting that some people want to tell others what to do.

I am a Libertarian so that thinking doesn't fly with me or even crawl with me.:):)

The fact of the matter is this.

If you didn't spend so much time on this website you wouldn't know how much time I spend on this website.:):)

Give me Liberty and give me the YGZ®:D:D

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Buddahfan wrote:

I find it interesting that some people want to tell others what to do.

I am a Libertarian so that thinking doesn't fly with me or even crawl with me.:):)

Give me Liberty and give me the YGZ®:D:D

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I am sorry if I have offended you sir :P AHAHAA

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Tim W. wrote:

I big man who can anchor the defense. He can play both man and team defense at a high level. Amir Johnson is a good defensive player, but he still has trouble against the stronger big men because he can't hold them off. I've no doubt that will change as he gets older and stronger. I see Ed Davis as having the potential to anchor a defense eventually, but like Johnson, needs to get bigger and stronger.

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So according to your definition a team can have multiple true defensive big men like Johnson and Davis might become.

Sorry Mr GQ you are going to have to find a another tag to describe your game "True Offensive Big Man". That would be very nice.

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Buddahfan wrote:

If you didn't spend so much time on this website you wouldn't know how much time I spend on this website.:):)

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*calmly claps hands with classic conservative class to honor this poignant, truth-telling quote* :cool:

Maybe MLSE wasn't to happy with Bargnani's GQ photo shoot. So they decided to make DeMar the face of the team?:):)

http://www.nba.com/raptors/photos/se...810_090310.jpg

NBA.com Raptors

...or they went online and realized how many fans are pulling for the YGZ to take over the team.

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blackjitsu wrote:

...or they went online and realized how many fans are pulling for the YGZ to take over the team.

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I would love to see these two lineups face each other

YGZ® Plus
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Johnson
Davis
Weems
DeRozan
Jack

Wright - To come in for Amir when he gets in foul trouble


Old Guys
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Bargnani
Anderson
Kleiza
Calderon
Barbosa

Reggie

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My money would be on the top unit, especially after the all-star break.:):)