Jerryd Bayless says the OKC and Portland models need to be followed

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Raptor4Ever wrote:

So if someone disagreed with you is considered troll ??
No one can deny that one way to build a good team is through draft but at the same time, as I pointed out, to be able to do so, you need a good GM and stable organization and even great coaching staff.

You want to ignore these facts and just put your faith on Ping Pong balls and enjoy many more years of loosing records while comforting yourself that you are just going through the rebuild pain !! SO BE IT :) :) What ever makes you sleep at night Pal.

But coming out here and calling the rest of us who DO NOT AGREE with you and your mentality and probably have been following basketball for a longer time , Trolls and other names is uncalled for and at best childish.

You don't like my posts, put me on your ignore list, I suggested it to your Pal Timmi boy before as well.

I am not going to change my posts because you like the whole RR hold hands around a camp fire and skip to the song: We are rebuilding, Dila dila dooooo, we will be great in 5 years Dila dila dooooo, BC is the Man Dilllaa Diiila doooo

News Flash, some of us here are educated professionals who are either running businesses and/or companies or have experiences doing it in past. We can see and smell a company that has no real leadership on top and no real plan to go forward in future.

P.S. What gave the impression that I am back from Europe ??!!

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To put my comment in the proper context rather than the one in which it was quoted, here is the whole of what I originally typed:

Matt52

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the only thing I see childish and foolish is the negativity in all your posts (as noted by another poster) on a Raptors fan forum that is clearly intended to provoke forum members - I think many regular posters around here know the routine and do not bother to engage with such trolling

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This of course was in reply to Raptor4ever:

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It is not only Childish but it is foolish to sit calmly and say that the way up ( like OKC) is to tank for many season and...

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As I said in a previous thread, I have no problem with opposing views - in fact, I encourage them - as there always remains the possibility for enlightenment that may cause me to rethink my views or stance. Logic and rational thought is usually a prerequisite for such opposing views though and as I've experienced most comments presented do not contain these. A perfect example is how I up until recently thought Bargnani and the Raptors could enjoy mutual success. I debated with many this topic. As time has based though, and more and more compelling arguments were made to the contrary, I relented my previously held notions. If your posts had factual information rather than half truths construed to validate opinions, I might engage and give thought to your claims.

The problem that arises in your posts is the manner in which you 'debate' opposing views. Just the above quoted post alone is littered with: condescending smiley faces, references of pal, bringing up another member who has no relevance to this thread, placking an "i" and "boy" at the end of the name of this member in an attempt to belittle and/or feminize, suggesting friendship an on annonymous forum between two members who happened to have a dissenting view to that of your own a couple of weeks ago when those two members have had many disagreements over the last many months, and insulting the entire forum of group think when that could not be any farther from the truth and obvious to those who routinely stop by.

There are a number of contradictions in your post but I will refrain from commenting as we've been down this path once too many times. In my opinion it would appear you are either one of two types of fan: 1) the what have you done for me lately type, or 2) the blinded by emotion and contempt type of fan. If I am correct, which ever is the right one is irrelevant because there is no rational discussion or thought that will alter the position. This, combined with the lack of logic or substantiated claims brought forth in your arguments, means any discussion will always end in a disagreement. Therefore as the last discussion linked above was left before your trip to Europe, I will say, "We'll have to agree to disagree."

There is no doubt that there are educated profressionals on this board. I happen to be one of them. Unfortunately given many of your postings from weeks ago had the IP addresses and host name from the same batch of public computers from a western Canadian university I do not believe this to be the same for you. Also I do not believe you to be in Europe now as your last post was from an IP address with the host of a Canadian cable company and it would appear most posts within the last few days have IP addresses and host names of Canadian cable companies in central Canada.

As I said in the linked thread above, I do not ignore anyone and read just about all comments on the Everything Raptors, Everything NBA, and Raptors Trade Forum - including yours. When the day comes where there is more than bias and contempt for BC, current Raptors players, and posters on this forum, I will most definitely care to engage in a discussion of opposing views.

One area we do agree upon is the lack of leadership at the top of company. The Ontario Teachers Pension Plan is a joke as an owner of the Raptors and they risk jeopardizing the progress made in the rebuild of this past season. Whether BC stays or goes (eventhough my preference is for him to stay), as I've said in previous posts, the current GM situation in Toronto is a farce.

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WhatWhat wrote:

You could have just said, "Yes drafting is an effective way to build a team, but I have no faith in BC to draft those players, and even less faith in the ownership to find someone who does."

We're still going to suck next year. And the year after that most likely.

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The sucking next year and the year after is unfortunately most likely true. However, that is the pain of building through the draft. Drafts only come along once a year and one draft alone is not enough to build a winner.

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Matt52 wrote:

The sucking next year and the year after is unfortunately most likely true. However, that is the pain of building through the draft. Drafts only come along once a year and one draft alone is not enough to build a winner.

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Right now, I'm staying pessimistic. There just isn't a commitment to defense, and the ownership is moronic atm (thank God BC's contract expires just after the draft!). If we move Bargnani in the offseason and trade/demote Calderon, I'll become far, far more optimistic. I also really don't believe in Triano.

If we had a lineup of Bayless/DD/Barnes/Davis/Kanter (we draft Davis, trade Bargnani for Kanter's rights) next season for example, I'd be far more optimistic. That team would still only win about 35 games (the magic of mediocre defense), barring huge internal improvement. But then perhaps we could move Kanter + our 2012 lotto pick to move up or something.

We're close to being on the right track again, we're also close to having no real hope for a long time. This offseason is crucial, is what I'm trying to say.

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WhatWhat wrote:

Right now, I'm staying pessimistic. There just isn't a commitment to defense, and the ownership is moronic atm (thank God BC's contract expires just after the draft!). If we move Bargnani in the offseason and trade/demote Calderon, I'll become far, far more optimistic. I also really don't believe in Triano.

If we had a lineup of Bayless/DD/Barnes/Davis/Kanter (we draft Davis, trade Bargnani for Kanter's rights) next season for example, I'd be far more optimistic. That team would still only win about 35 games (the magic of mediocre defense), barring huge internal improvement. But then perhaps we could move Kanter + our 2012 lotto pick to move up or something.

We're close to being on the right track again, we're also close to having no real hope for a long time. This offseason is crucial, is what I'm trying to say.

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Outside of the ownership situation, I'm really optimistic to be honest.

The only players left that fit the mold of the stereotypical BC player is Calderon and Bargnani. Given Calderon was nearly traded last year and the obvious change in the company line regarding Bargnani, I have no doubt both will be traded if it truly improves the team. If you look at all his trades in the last 2 years they have all increased one or a combination of athleticism, defense, rebounding, and youth.

I am the first to admit that BC has messed up in the past on giving out contracts. However credit has to be given on trades and drafting. Not all of his trades have worked out but attempts have been made to build winners given what they had the last couple of seasons. Every trade was calculated but unforunately, not all trades work out. At the same time there have been trades that have been obvious winners.

One thing I find ironic is many people want BC out but at the same time point to the building blocks of DD, ED, Bayless, JJ, and Amir yet make no mention of the fact BC was the one who brought them all in. Also, despite the history of bad contracts given out, the Raps have the 5th lowest amount of money dedicated to payroll next year with no one making more than $10M. Once the decision was made to rebuild, BC has made some shrewd trades to rid contracts, add youth, and rebuild with a different plan. To say there is no clear direction in the current rebuilding process is being very selective with the acquisitions that have been made of late. Hopefully a year or two of high draft picks adds a franchise player to go with the young players currently here.

I totally agree we are close to being on the right track again and I totally agree this off season is crucial. I guess we disagree with who is right to continue the build.

Oh don't get me wrong, BC has done a good job with this rebuild so far. I wouldn't even mind if he were back. I would mind if he got the same contract though. I actually trust him a lot regarding the draft. He's been patient so far, but given his past I don't trust him. But then again, he doesn't have a star to appease.

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WhatWhat wrote:

Oh don't get me wrong, BC has done a good job with this rebuild so far. I wouldn't even mind if he were back. I would mind if he got the same contract though. I actually trust him a lot regarding the draft. He's been patient so far, but given his past I don't trust him. But then again, he doesn't have a star to appease.

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I agree with that as well. Another 5 year $20M contract is not right. A shorter guaranteed contract (3 years) with team options for additional years and bigger money would be fair - i.e. reward success.

No substance what so ever Pal. If you feel I insulted a member, as a moderator, you need to step in and address the complaint on the spot and ... I can not believe I have to explain that to you as well. You do not like my demeanor and ... simply use your Moderating rights, issue warnings or ban me. I am sure it will make you life easier since there will be one less person to criticize BC).

( By the way IP addresses are private information for the owners of the site and you have no right to share with others on public domain, what is next , if we make a contribution to the site you are going to store our credit card infornation and release it on line !!I am going to file a complaint with the administrators of the site as I think you mis-abused your privileges as a moderator of the board since you could not control your emotion but before making such a conclusion from IP addresses, you should learn little more about computers and how they work detective)


Again, let me repeat this for you :
Just tanking seasons, getting picks and ... does not mean you are rebuilding. BC has done nothing to ensure that fans that he can make the right choices in the past 5 years. Incompetent GM, means more waste of opportunities.Look at Kings and Minni and learn from them. It is not a Rocket science ;)

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Raptor4Ever wrote:

No substance what so ever Pal. If you feel I insulted a member, as a moderator, you need to step in and address the complaint on the spot and ... I can not believe I have to explain that to you as well. You do not like my demeanor and ... simply use your Moderating rights, issue warnings or ban me. I am sure it will make you life easier since there will be one less person to criticize BC).

( By the way IP addresses are private information for the owners of the site and you have no right to share with others on public domain, what is next , if we make a contribution to the site you are going to store our credit card infornation and release it on line !!I am going to file a complaint with the administrators of the site as I think you mis-abused your privileges as a moderator of the board since you could not control your emotion but before making such a conclusion from IP addresses, you should learn little more about computers and how they work detective)


Again, let me repeat this for you :
Just tanking seasons, getting picks and ... does not mean you are rebuilding. BC has done nothing to ensure that fans that he can make the right choices in the past 5 years. Incompetent GM, means more waste of opportunities.Look at Kings and Minni and learn from them. It is not a Rocket science ;)

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This is a situation where I have asked the other moderators to take a look at the situation. If they feel anything was done wrong, you can be sure you will be a public apology. I do not feel any private information was given that would disclose your identity considering there are at least 15 universities in Western Canada off the top of my head and central Canada has approximately half the population of the country nor did I type the actual address nor name any specific internet provider.

Thank you for the insights for moderating. Banning someone because of an opposing view is hardly what I would call a fair or respected moderator. If anything, it would ruin the great forum that is Raptors Republic. I fail to see where I failed to control my emotions but again, I will agree to disagree on this matter as well.

The comments regarding my views on BC are unfounded as I have made note of his failures many times. I have yet to find a GM that has never made a mistake or a bad transaction. Here is BC's career: link. The good far outweighs the bad - both in TOR and in PHX. But again, this has been discussed many times and a quick search of the forum will bring up many threads.

The blanket comment

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Just tanking seasons, getting picks and ... does not mean you are rebuilding. BC has done nothing to ensure that fans that he can make the right choices in the past 5 years. Incompetent GM, means more waste of opportunities.Look at Kings and Minni and learn from them. It is not a Rocket science ;)

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only solidifies the slanted and biased view held towards Colangelo.

The best chance to build a winner comes through the draft. Tanking implies purposely losing. I'm not sure anyone advocated that - I can say with absolute certainty I have not. The Raps will most likely have another rough season despite giving it their all - as they have done this year. That is not tanking - that is rebuiding and letting youth mature. I do not see another alternative except doing the opposite of what BC has done this last year - that would mean spending money or making trades to get an immediate 8th or maybe 7th seed only to be in a situation like Charlotte or Milwaukee.

If you would care to continue discussion on PM, go ahead. It is quite clear we have opposing views and there is very little constructive discussion in the posts. I am certain this public discussion is adding little to the other members RR experience

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Raptor4Ever wrote:

( By the way IP addresses are private information for the owners of the site and you have no right to share with others on public domain, what is next , if we make a contribution to the site you are going to store our credit card infornation and release it on line !!I am going to file a complaint with the administrators of the site as I think you mis-abused your privileges as a moderator of the board since you could not control your emotion but before making such a conclusion from IP addresses, you should learn little more about computers and how they work detective)

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No poster has access to your IP address and we will never give your IP address out to anyone. You location has not been compromised. Mentioning your region was a mistake but there is no way anyone could possibly locate you by saying something like "Western Canada". Give Matt a break, it won't happen again.

We're all friends here Raptor4Ever. :)

Raptor4Ever: I sincerely apologize for using information in a discussion no other member would have access to. I do stand by all other contents of discussion.

To other RR members, you have no worries of location or IP address ever being made public.