Nash Watch: L.A. bound (#1009)

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stretch wrote:

Nash is modestly better than Calderon at this time, and I say that in the belief that Jose is the Raptors MVP, hands down, this season. Father time can not be denied, there is no logical argument that says Nash will not decline in performance in this very late stage in his great career. Bob Cousy and John Stockton are the only NBA point guards to play past 40. They both played their last game at age 41.

Jose is already here, performing at a high level, and under contract through next season. The Olympics are relatively early in the summer (July) this time around. He has put up a lot of minutes year in and year out and he's a mere pup at 30.

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Nash is modestly better? Do you see what he is doing in Phoenix, in the western conference no less, with the shit roster he has to work with? I'm not knocking Calderon, he is a good PG. But Nash is one of the best of all time.

Father time cannot be denied. He would be a 3 year - at most - pick up. A big difference between Nash and Cousy/Stockton is medical advances and Nash's training. Nash's off-season and in season training does not get enough credit. He is a physical freak and fitness freak.

I disagree on Jose being a mere pup next season at 31. I also disagree with the impact of the Olympics. That is a topic beat to death so I'll spare everyone again. My comments are here in the thread on the matter.

I think that the subtraction of calderon and the addition of nash makes us a playoff team next year with the roster we have. i would love to see nash on the pick and roll with amir, right now and soon to be jonas, and bargs up top. that (i want to say is going to be) would be awesome.

to compare nash and jose is silly. jose is a good to very good point guard and play runner. nash is one of the best point guards ever.

if we were to take how they both perform now and try to project how good they will be in one two or three years i would say nash will still be the better player in 3 years time. going through nash' career stats there hasn't been a drop off since he turned 30 and i see nothing to show that there will be.

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Miekenstien wrote:

I think that the subtraction of calderon and the addition of nash makes us a playoff team next year with the roster we have. i would love to see nash on the pick and roll with amir, right now and soon to be jonas, and bargs up top. that (i want to say is going to be) would be awesome.

to compare nash and jose is silly. jose is a good to very good point guard and play runner. nash is one of the best point guards ever.

if we were to take how they both perform now and try to project how good they will be in one two or three years i would say nash will still be the better player in 3 years time. going through nash' career stats there hasn't been a drop off since he turned 30 and i see nothing to show that there will be.

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Everybody gets older ... the drop off will come.

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Soft Euro wrote:

Everybody gets older ... the drop off will come.

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not saying it wont. just saying that in the next three years i see nash as remaining markedly better than jose.

I think Nash would look like a complete douche by saying "I will only re-sign in Phoenix if they make competitive moves", and then choosing Toronto.

As for the Calderon/Nash debate, Nash is the far more valuable piece, hands down. I mean, it's not even close (even at 38 years old).

Yesterday Nash said he was open to Miami!!!!

And I was floored. How could he? Even if he was just babbling. Not that Iam thinking that he "jilting" the Raps...but Miami?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-11175090

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Bendit wrote:

Yesterday Nash said he was open to Miami!!!!

And I was floored. How could he? Even if he was just babbling. Not that Iam thinking that he "jilting" the Raps...but Miami?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-11175090

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It was put up here yesterday.

Note that Miami was one of many considerations.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...ozWCRRyXXhuEQJ

Keep in mind the source here - Peter Vescey is hardly a solid source, more like a tabloid with shreds of truth mixed with liberties.

Anyways, Nash wanted Diaw. Front office did not want to revisit the past.

I'm not convinced Nash plays in Toronto next year but I do think he will play somewhere other than Phoenix.

nash is classy. he isn't going to insult anyone. he is also on record of saying he wants market value, which miami most definitely can't give

I don't have a degree in business but for the people advising raptors franchise - nash-anity will do wonders for business.

I apologize upfront. I am more of a Raptors fan than an NBA fan since there are only so many hours in a day. I don't know the players and teams (team needs) well enough to comment intelligently on trades etc. But for what it's worth.

Get Nash for next season. Can the Raps do a sign and Trade with Phoenix? I'm thinking the Suns extend him for three years, at current salary (or with some raises, whatever) first year guaranteed and next two years at his option. That way he may be intrigued enough to give TO a shot without feeling trapped.

Raps get Kabongo as a rookie PG to continue his mentoring under Nash.

Raps trade Jose for any upgrade over the current roster, position 1 through 8.

Raps trade away whoever gets bumped from the Jose trade for a pick in 2013.

Raps re-up Bayless at some reasonable sum.

Thinking:

JV and AB are going to open up the inside like crazy. Pick and rolls are going to be on the menu next year.

Upgrading any of the spots 1 through 8 through the Jose trade is going to improve the bench, as will bringing in JV (who bumps someone to backup) and as will this years pick (who presumably is good enough to either start at some point or else be a big boost to the bench).

If Nash decides he doesn't want to stay, Jose is available as a UFA (this could be pointed out to him before the trade with earnest expressions of desire to see him in 2013) and Kabongo has had a year of mentoring with one of the best point guards around.

If Nash does stay, Jose is still available potentially as a back-up PG at a lower rate and Kabongo is available to continue relieving both Nash and Jose of minutes, extending their potential careers.

Bayless is available as a two guard off the bench and could work very well with Kabongo (pass first point guard) or Calderon in year two of this deal.

Summary:
Immediate upgrade over PG with Nash
Upgrade over C with JV
AB plays at PF with less rebounding pressure
Upgrade over position SG/SF with Jose trade or else Bench improves significantly
Upgrade over position SG/SF with draft pick (and subsequent trade?) or else Bench improves significantly
Bayless retained for scoring punch, with no need to retool him into pass first PG

The two most important positions, center and point guard are improved, pressure on AB is lowered, bench gets a significant injection of talent. That is a playoff bound team with aspirations for semi-finals in three years.

Key to this is giving Nash the out after one year, which also give the Raps the equivalent of Jose's expiring contract.

Just my thoughts (with a huge tip of the hat to Matt)

(Drag this over to the Nash thread?)

IMO, this whole "mentoring" idea is bullshit. Everyone has a game that has given them enough success to be drafted into the NBA (even if that game is heavily based on athleticism) How you adapt your game to have success at the nba level is completely on you, I don't think a player can actually help you develop the skill b/c everyone's game is different, if they're a veteran they can probably teach you what it takes to adjust to the nba lifestyle, but that's about it.

A couple of points...the Suns extending Nash will have to be done with Nash's agreement (and the intention to trade him to the Raps or other team). Nash has said he wants to explore free agency with the aim to win so this thinking will require a change of heart. The other....Kabongo has I believe decided to stay in school which is probably best for him.

Nash is old as **** people. Good right now but in 2-=3 years when were ready he is going to see huge declines. Most stupid idea i've ever heard...

Not to be so blunt but wow, he's a minor upgrade over jose, older, and not what the team needs. Why waste resources on a guy who only real big upside for our team is where he was born.

Not to be blunt, but Nash's numbers have hardly declined since his two MVP seasons. "Minor upgrade over jose" is hardly an accurate statement. The team needs a PG who makes others better and one who can also score at a high level. Scores 3 pts more per game, 3 more assists, better 3 pt %, better ft%.

You are guessing about his "huge declines." He looks after himself better than virtually anyone in the league, and is famous for his off-season conditioning.

This kind of off-the-cuff response says more about you than it does about my suggestions.

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Bendit wrote:

A couple of points...the Suns extending Nash will have to be done with Nash's agreement (and the intention to trade him to the Raps or other team). Nash has said he wants to explore free agency with the aim to win so this thinking will require a change of heart. The other....Kabongo has I believe decided to stay in school which is probably best for him.

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Absolutely done with Nash's consent. that was the idea of including Kabongo in the equation. There is a relationship there. I doubt if another year in school would be better for Kabongo than a year of playing with Nash under Casey.

According to yahoo Nash is already eyeing Miami maybe to get a ring or two before the wheels fall off. And hell, for the quality player he is, and for the amount of money he would be asking for, why wouldnt they do it even if he were just a consistent outside threat. If Nash is going anywhere, my bet is on south beach. Phoenix is in shambles and there's no basketball reason he would stay. Toronto might be slightly better and have that "Canadian" thing going for it but at this stage in his career, he's not looking for more drudgery - people want rings no matter what they say and he will always be welcome here so why rush it and spend a year fighting for a second round exit?

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Puffer wrote:

Not to be blunt, but Nash's numbers have hardly declined since his two MVP seasons. "Minor upgrade over jose" is hardly an accurate statement. The team needs a PG who makes others better and one who can also score at a high level. Scores 3 pts more per game, 3 more assists, better 3 pt %, better ft%.

You are guessing about his "huge declines." He looks after himself better than virtually anyone in the league, and is famous for his off-season conditioning.

This kind of off-the-cuff response says more about you than it does about my suggestions.

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Yes because me assuming that at his age he is due for a decline, that he is only remotely better then Jose(not a defensive powerhouse now is he?), and would pretty much demand a decent salary means he's a great fit... think for a second before you keep pushing this nash idea. He is a bad fit for the raptors at this point of the game on almost all fronts.

I just don't understand in any way how having him play here would be good for the raptors in 2-3 year+. We are much better targeting a 20-25 year old PG to grow with the team. Only draw would be that he is Canadian, rest of your idea is based around just bad thinking.

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akashsingh wrote:

IMO, this whole "mentoring" idea is bullshit. Everyone has a game that has given them enough success to be drafted into the NBA (even if that game is heavily based on athleticism) How you adapt your game to have success at the nba level is completely on you, I don't think a player can actually help you develop the skill b/c everyone's game is different, if they're a veteran they can probably teach you what it takes to adjust to the nba lifestyle, but that's about it.

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Steve has already been mentoring Kabongo. Kabongo has commented on how much it means to him and how much it helps.

You just have to look at Steve's own stats to see what kind of improvement is possible. Going from 42% to 53% FG shooting over 10 years. And from 2/1 to 8/1 assist to TO ratio and from .3 pts/min to .5 pt/min in scoring. It wasn't until his third year he even started playing 30 minutes a game. His physical skills haven't improved that much. He was 22 years, 8n months old when he started playing in the NBA. He didn't peak until he had been in the league for 10 years.

I think a guy who has improved his game that much, and maintained it at that high a level has something to teach a younger player. Particularly one who has already said he wants to continue to learn from a veteran.

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Puffer wrote:

Steve has already been mentoring Kabongo. Kabongo has commented on how much it means to him and how much it helps.

You just have to look at Steve's own stats to see what kind of improvement is possible. Going from 42% to 53% FG shooting over 10 years. And from 2/1 to 8/1 assist to TO ratio and from .3 pts/min to .5 pt/min in scoring. It wasn't until his third year he even started playing 30 minutes a game. His physical skills haven't improved that much. He was 22 years, 8n months old when he started playing in the NBA. He didn't peak until he had been in the league for 10 years.

I think a guy who has improved his game that much, and maintained it at that high a level has something to teach a younger player. Particularly one who has already said he wants to continue to learn from a veteran.

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But is this worth spending the resources on a player due for a decline by the time the team is ready to make a run? Simply no.

Not trying to sound disrespectful or like a broken record but if you consider Kabongo is staying in college for another year..it just is not worth it in any respect.