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Bottom line: Good statline as a result of mediocre PG play. That's not what I'm looking for in a future floor general. This is real life, not fantasy hoops.
This is very similar to the Bargnani argument last year. Yeah he put up great numbers, but he sucked as a centre.
Yeah Bayless can put up good numbers, but he sucks as a PG.
I think we're all jumping the gun a bit too fast here.
Bayless is only 24 yrs old, has been in the league only 4 years and three of those years only played less than 15mins a game, with his role clearly undefined by the teams he's played in.
And with the Raptors, he played a bit over half a season last year and this year without a proper training camp and summer regimen.
Can he be a starter for the Raps? I think so. He's definitely quick enough to chase PGs, he has a mean quick first step. He has range. Turnovers, that can be fixed during training camp and growth of team chemistry. He just needs to learn to control offensive situations and determine what to do in crucial situations (end of shot clock, when stuck in the lane, etc). Jennings attempts more shots than him per 36mins. And so does Paul. The only difference is they have teammates who convert their passes into points. Cant be said the same for Bayless.
Is there any player on this team that you actually like? hahaha kiddingQuote:
Nilanka wrote:
Youre starting to sound like you graduated from the school of Tim W!
I'm cool with Bayless getting a chance to prove that he can play the PG position properly, but only for the rest of the season. I'd rather go a different direction if he plays how he played up to this point. He has had his chances to show he can lead the team every game in a reserve role, and he doesn't take advantage of it. That's how you become a starter in this league, unless you are good enough coming out of college. Bayless hasn't earned to start over Calderon, and I don't think he has proved he can start as a PG. If we are aspiring to have a future point guard worse than Calderon, I think that is a problem.
All this bull* about he is better as a starter, doesn't appeal to me. It shows me that he has an ego problem, he can't accept a role, and he is mentally week. If you let that dictate your game something is wrong. If he wants to start and consider himself a PG, come of the bench as an affective point guard, not a similar version of Barbosa.
His only 23 won't turn 24 till august. He is one year older than Brandon Jennings and DeMar DeRozan. No where near his prime yet. I find it wierd that ppl are willing to give up on him and say give DeMar time.Quote:
tbihis wrote:
Because most of us are looking for the intangibles that a PG should have, and for the most part are things that you can't develop. I don't think he has them. I also see personality traits that I don't like. If we sign him as a SG, then okay, but I think we need to move in a different direction at the PG position. Maybe as he matures he will get better, but I'm ready to get a true PG to back up Calderon next year, and possibly start in 13/14. I don't think we will see that from Bayless by then.Quote:
Chr1s1anL wrote:
Bayless is good at what he does, it's just not what I would like to see in a PG.
I just don't see the point of holding onto fringe players, especially during a rebuild. For me, the only players I want to see back next year are Bargnani, JJ, Amir, DeMar and Valanciunas. Everyone else is up for grabs. Actually, even the guys I mentioned are up for grabs if it makes sense long term.Quote:
tbihis wrote:
It's theoretically possible that with time and commitment, each of our young players can turn into solid players. But during a rebuild, I'd rather wipe the slate clean, and try and find players who have much less question marks attached to their games.
I'm a proponent of old school basketball, where players play a prototypical game based on their position. That's why I was so critical of Bargnani as a centre last year, it's why I've been critical of DeMar as a shooting guard this year, and it's why I'm not buying Bayless' 20 pts last night as an indicator that he's capable of running an offense.
What would be those intagibles that you are referring to?Quote:
saints91 wrote:
What are the things that Bayless does that doesnt make him a PG?
Bayless hater, still here. Nothing's changed. He's still an inconsistent offensive-minded NBA backup.
Very good point!Quote:
Chr1s1anL wrote:
He struggles under defensive pressure, giving up the rock is not instinctual, shot selection is arguably the worst on the team, doesn't recognize "hot" teammates, relies on the long pull up jumper (during PNRs) far too often, and doesn't realize when a teammate has a favourable mismatch.Quote:
tbihis wrote:
I'd rather have a busted up Peyton Manning running our offense.
And I was one of the folks who were in favour of giving Bayless the starting gig this season. But I've seen enough since training camp to realize that Bayless hasn't improved on last year's deficiencies at all.
I agree. But I think his inconsistency is derived from his limited playing time. I used to think of him as a ball-hog and i think he is at times, but if you really look at his game, he is very aggressive. He is always on attack mode. And i think because of limited playing time, he wants to do as much as he can with those limited minutes. Couple that with uber aggressiveness equals bad shots and turnovers. Its a good thing for the Raps they have contrasting PGs in Calderon and Bayless, its bad for Bayless that he's playing backup for Calderon. Calderon's style of play is much more of a lull, sure-type thing. Im not complaining tho dont get me wrong, but its hard for Bayless to come in and play his style of game when what is expected of him is to provide continuity till Calderon has gotten some rest and is ready to enter the game again. Thats why when the Raps are behind and Bayless checks in for Calderon, good things happen. Coz he redirects the flow of the game. There's no pressure on him to maintain the flow because he can use his aggressiveness to spark the offense. The problem is when the Raps are leading then he checks in and most of the time, thats the case. That's why we often see Bayless as disruptive to the offense.Quote:
ebrian wrote:
I would like to add to this list,Quote:
Nilanka wrote:
court vision and basketball IQ working together: Looking at an offensive set and anticipating what the defence is trying to do. Moving to different areas to shift the defence and exploit the set. He forces way to much. He passes into difficult situations. Watch Nash, Calderon, and other good point guards. How often does Calderon drive to the basket knowing that he isn;t going to shoot, but it's just to make the defence adjust. It's more than a drive and kick.
I think he places more value on his individual stat sheet more than getting his team mates involved. Once again you can tell players like Calderon and Nash both rather see their team mates succeed over themselves. They take pleasure in seeing ball movement. Bayless will pass once but once that ball come back to him, he's taking it.
This isn't necessarily a PG thing, but it annoys the hell out of me:
The inability to recognize that your shot isn't falling that night. Yes he is aggressive, but if you are shooting well, stop shooting and do other things. He doesn't get it.
Like i said in my prior posts, give him a full training camp with the core and judge him after. Most, if not all the reasons you mentioned are team based. And this team definitely does not have the team chemistry down yet. As Tim W. once said, and i paraphrase, offense comes with the defense. Bayless is a very good defender, and his offense is most probably fixable.Quote:
Nilanka wrote:
Wonder why Tim W sort of just dropped out of RR. He wasnt a "shy" poster.Quote:
tbihis wrote:
He get's enough playing time. I think that mindset works against him for the most part. If he came in and used his time responsibly then would not feel the need to use Calderon as much. He comes in and tries to do way to much, and most of the time fails at it. You get as much time as you earn, and he hasn't proven himself in the time he gets.Quote:
tbihis wrote:
I dont disagree. Ive seen him play this way a lot of times last season and this season. But the analogy with Calderon and other good point guards isnt quite agreeable. Nash was already playing close to 30mins a game his second season. Calderon has played 5 full seasons with Bargnani, 2 with Amir and Derozan. With more than 1 full training camps. Bayless hasnt even had a full training camp with any of these guys. I think his problem is more on having chemistry with the other players, and trusting them.Quote:
saints91 wrote:
If he values stats and playing time, he wouldve requested for a trade long ago. I maybe wrong, but i dont think he's ever directly stated that he's miserable because he wants to be a starter. As far as i know, he even said he's happy with what role the coaches give him. Im sure he wants to be a starter and id be worried if he doesnt because at 23, he's got a long way to go.
how do you determine that he doesnt have court vision and basketball iq? because of turnovers?
Actually, i think its the other way around, Calderon determines Bayless' playing time, not the other way around. If Calderon is able to play 48 minutes, the coaches will let him. And its not a knack on Bayless, but because Calderon is the starter and he is more of a fit, right now, with the current core.Quote:
saints91 wrote:
"You get as much time as you earn" - is the old school NBA. Darren Collison earned more time than he got backing up Paul in NO. But he wouldve never ever played split minutes with Paul. Thats why he had to go to another team. Same with Sessions now.
OMG!
People just cannot give this guy any credit. Listen very carefully:
Whenever he gets a chance to start he scores like 16-20 pts gets atleast 5 ast and 3 reb. That is not just the last 3 games, we saw it in the last 15 games of the previous year as well. His defense is an improvement over Jose also. This guy is a very good player, this extreme prejudice towards him is unjustified.
I was one of the people saying at the beginning of this year that he should be starting over Jose. After watching Jose play this year I'm not so sure about that anymore. But if this team didn't have Jose I would not be worried, cause I know Bayless is legit.
The more this guy gets a chance to start the better he will be, thats right he is ONLY 23 years of age! That means he is going to continue to improve, he is young as hell. I can see him developing into a deadly draw-and-kick point guard, using his ability to penetrate into the lane.
I'm excited about his potential and every other raptors fan should also be.
+1!!!!!Quote:
tbihis wrote: