Everything Wince

I think this whole idea of the Raptors being moved if not for Carter is based on no real facts or evidence. Basketball in Toronto had a strong following prior to Carter and it showed steady growth. Toronto has a larger population than Vancouver and the team had/has better ownership. The team has stunk to high heaven since he left and they're still here? Why? Because Toronto is a good basketball market. Toronto posts respectable gate numbers in the worst of years. When people are purchasing those tickets to go witness a stinker they're not doing it with visions of Vince Carter dunks in the back of his mind. What Carter brought was American perceived credibility to the team and it is my belief people are mixing this up with actual club health. What some ignorant ass who couldn't pick Toronto out on a map thinks of the Raptors means nothing to the team's long term health. If it did they'd be long gone.

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Apollo wrote:

I think this whole idea of the Raptors being moved if not for Carter is based on no real facts or evidence. Basketball in Toronto had a strong following prior to Carter and it showed steady growth. Toronto has a larger population than Vancouver and the team had/has better ownership. The team has stunk to high heaven since he left and they're still here? Why? Because Toronto is a good basketball market. Toronto posts respectable gate numbers in the worst of years. When people are purchasing those tickets to go witness a stinker they're not doing it with visions of Vince Carter dunks in the back of his mind. What Carter brought was American perceived credibility to the team and it is my belief people are mixing this up with actual club health. What some ignorant ass who couldn't pick Toronto out on a map thinks of the Raptors means nothing to the team's long term health. If it did they'd be long gone.

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unless he's tall, black, and knows how to put a ball in a hoop.

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akashsingh wrote:

unless he's tall, black, and knows how to put a ball in a hoop.

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Stay classy Jethro

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joey_hesketh wrote:

You think the Bulls fans only liked MJ for who he is??
You think Lakers fans only like Kobe for who he is?? C'mon man.

These athletes are placed in a city, and told to perform.
There is only one thing we should cheer Vince for, and that is the accomplishments he achieved in a Toronto Raptors uniform.

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You're right, but I should have been more specific. In a lot of ways, what a player accomplishes and who they are are closely related. The way MJ performed for Chicago, his character came across. To a lesser extent, Kobe's character comes across too. Regardless of their accomplishments, their will to win and their leadership (maybe MJ moreso than Kobe) was/is usually evident.

So what I meant was that Carter thinks we should cheer for him because he "put us on the map". But the accomplishment he'll mostly be remembered for is stunning everyone in the dunk competition, which is a very individual-focussed event. If he had won us a big playoff game while playing with the flu, maybe things would be different.

I think what frustrated a lot of fans was that Vince's obvious talent was overshadowed by moments where he would chose himself over the team, the city, the country.

Jordan and Bryant never publicly demanded a trade and then tanked games and faked/embellished injuries until management felt forced to get rid of him. Had Michael Jordan pulled what Carter pulled he would be despised in Chicago. LeBron James carried the Cavs to the finals but that's all be mostly forgotten and replaced with hate because of how he conducted himself on the way out; a different situation but just as classless and selfish.

Pfffftttt....Carter.

For the pro VC people...I dont believe the anti crowd are disputing his great talent (which btw he squandered somewhat for not working harder than he did) but his character. And this is well documented. The only reason he was a mouse in NJ was because Kidd would have kicked his ass and Thorn would have buried him.

And then there are quotes like this from the interview up top:

"hey, definitely, we’ll hear what they have to say.’ So I never rule it out."

wtf...a) seems like he is of the mindset that there are teams lined up waiting to have him come rescue them. His team team just got swept and he was a bit player on it. b) I missed any contrition in that piece...as usual he is sashaying thru his existence not owning up to his failings incl that 3 good teams just used him as salary filler and minimum sal. bench extra (Dallas).

No thanks. Dont wish to be bothered with his presence at all. Maybe when he retires, apologizes and then visits the city to do good deeds.

I'd rather have a player with less ability but higher character on the Raptors. And they dont have to say that they love TO. I couldnt care less. Some of us are a bit too complexed about that.

Vince always thought about Vince...first.

Not going to lie, I expected the voting to be ALOT more lop-sided in favour of the negative.

And oh one more thing. Babcock was a far greater "man" than Vince. He was actually a softie and not meant to be the shark you have to be, to be a GM in the NBA. His 2 big failings....drafting Araujo: he was new to the org and I remember reading a report that he was pressured by the so called bb consultant McCloskey into picking him (Raptors had a need for a C). And of course trading VC under pressure. In this case as well Tannenbaum apparently wanted him to make that deal. After all he went thru he never once bad mouthed the Raps, took his lumps and went back to Minnesota. I felt sorry for him and still do because he has to live with his effed up one chance to be a NBA gm. If anyone should be blamed for these episodes it should be Peddie who was waving his wand around at the time a bit too vigorously on the bb side of things at MLSE..

Don't you dare try and defend Rob Babcock. That is something I will not stand for. ;) hahah

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joey_hesketh wrote:

Not going to lie, I expected the voting to be ALOT more lop-sided in favour of the negative.

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Well you certainly got a reaction!! :)

Maybe RR (Apollo?) can arrange for Joey to get an audience with Wince when next he visits TO...thats if he is still in the L next season. :)

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Tesla wrote:

Stay classy Jethro

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if you look at my point WITHOUT TAKING IT OUT OF CONTEXT. You'll realize it is very much true, not caring what people think is all fine and well, when there opinion doesn't really matter, but what the players thinks definitely plays a big role in determining whether they want to come to our city or not, and that in turn affects the organization.

If the player is so closed minded and unable/unwilling to pick up a book,enlightened himself, to think for himself, then is that player really a legitimate piece to the cause? There are three types of players who want nothing to do with Toronto. The first group are those who don't want to lose and who feel that Toronto has a poor reputation. The second are those who don't want to live in Canada, have researched what living in Canada entails and who have come to a qualified opinion that living in Canada is not for them. The final group are those who don't think for themselves, who don't research their decisions and instead look to take the advice of others who may or may not give them good advice. The first group can be won. The second group is can't be won and the final group isn't worth talking about. Bottom line, the Raptors need to win some games and they will recruit the right kinds of players they need to succeed.

In other words, the players with killer instinct want to play for teams that win or who they feel can win with their help. Their primary goal is winning. If the Raptors start winning the right free agents will consider Toronto a good spot to play. The ignorant smug b.s. people like Kenny Smith and others gets on with only humors the ignorant group who doesn't know any better. Those, the Raptors can do without.

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Apollo wrote:

If the player is so closed minded and unable/unwilling to pick up a book,enlightened himself, to think for himself, then is that player really a legitimate piece to the cause? There are three types of players who want nothing to do with Toronto. The first group are those who don't want to lose and who feel that Toronto has a poor reputation. The second are those who don't want to live in Canada, have researched what living in Canada entails and who have come to a qualified opinion that living in Canada is not for them. The final group are those who don't think for themselves, who don't research their decisions and instead look to take the advice of others who may or may not give them good advice. The first group can be won. The second group is can't be won and the final group isn't worth talking about. Bottom line, the Raptors need to win some games and they will recruit the right kinds of players they need to succeed.

In other words, the players with killer instinct want to play for teams that win or who they feel can win with their help. Their primary goal is winning. If the Raptors start winning the right free agents will consider Toronto a good spot to play. The ignorant smug b.s. people like Kenny Smith and others gets on with only humors the ignorant group who doesn't know any better. Those, the Raptors can do without.

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at this point in doesn't matter what the reason is, whether it is b/c of ignorance or b/c of our losing culture it doesn't matter b/c quite possibly it is both right now.BC will hopefully try to get better this summer through TRADES and through DRAFT PICKS, NOT free agent signings. It is not even worth wasting time thinking about what is going on through these players heads, I was just making a joke....sort of.

anyways appollo we will see if you are right about winning making a difference in 2013-2014, if colangelo makes the right trades this offseason....

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KingMaxwell47 wrote:

I absolutely love Vince. He was my childhood hero, the first player who's name I ever knew, the first three jerseys I ever owned were his, and even after he was traded, he was my favourite player. He's the reason I ever got into basketball, and I'm sure a lot of Canadians will agree. I'm sure if you ask Tristan Thompson, Cory Joseph, and Myck Kabongo who their favourite player was growing up, they'd say Vince. Hell, Kevin Durant was a Raptors fan while growing up in D.C. because of Vince. When I found out Vince was traded I practically balled my eyes out. I don't think I was old enough to understand the implications at the time, so I may be biased, but I think he is the greatest Raptor ever, and I will never boo him.

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I don't expect to change the minds of the anti Vince camp but to help clarify the situation for those who would entertain the thought of supporting him. Remember what Glen Grunwald said about him - as great a basketball player as he is, he is a better human being. You got to ask yourself how could such an admittidly great human being end up in such a predicament? This reminds me very much of the Ben Johnson Charlie Francis (God rest his soul) saga. The passionate Mr. Francis tried to tell anyone that would listen that the world was cheating and making a mockery of Canada and our talent! They went to war for Canada but when it came time for Canada to fight for them, they threw them under the bus. Some very powerful people felt it was better to vilify them so they could look like great people. Mr. Francis even had ignored documentary evidence that everyone else was cheating. History has made them undeniably correct and yet he went to his grave with no apology! What a travesty for such a great man. Vince was convinced that the Raptors were deceiving him and were not serious about winning a championship. He felt betrayed and wanted out! Vince is the only one I would believe as to whether he privately asked for a trade first or not but in any event the answer was a big no! He would have to play out the rest of his contract of however many years for the people who he felt tricked him. I can't condone what he did in the stalemate since I felt he had better options: He could have been a gentleman and stopped playing professionally for the remainder of his contract - loosing 14 million each year and lining the enemies pockets with same amount: He could have played in another league for say 5 million a year only losing 9 million a year and hope MLSE doesn't sue him for breach of contract leaving him homeless on the streets of Toronto. Still "a great guy" possibly losing millions but not trapped for years playing for his deceivers under the first two scenarios: He could wade into the cesspool MLSE created and play hard ball too doing all he could to disrupt the team while losing no money. As a young man with accountants, lawyers and advisers (not his decision alone). This smacks of what money people and accountants would advise in the stalemate instead of making MLSE millions and losing millions in the process. I say if he did not play, MLSE could only line their pockets for a couple of years and 28 million the most before the public came to his rescue but who knows? Vince was in a dispute that some very powerful people could not afford to lose and have the public believe they were not serious about winning; they had their spin doctors paint him as the villain. Vince went to war for the city, the fans and the team to bring them all he felt they deserved. Doesn't matter if he actually saved the franchise the intent to save was there. He donated his time and money far beyond the call of duty and is a greater human being than definitely most and probably all that criticize him. He is a warrior who had the guts to pull on superman's cape when his deceivers (he felt, we weren't there) told him they will keep him to the end of his contract (years). He was a pawn, a sacrificial lamb in the corporate spin doctors game where it would have been devastating if he had any credibility and was claiming that MLSE was not seriously trying to win a championship. His real crime is being too good a human being and wanting the best for the city and fans. It's just business for MLSE but find it shocking that he would consider coming back after all the damage we inflicted on him - stay away Vince, you are far more than we deserve!!

"...His real crime is being too good a human being and wanting the best for the city and fans...."

Don't even know where to start.

It's must be nice to be on such close terms with him that you can even go back all those years and read his mind.

Whatever.

It is so clear now....

Every time Wince hit the floor MLSE sent a charge of electricity through it to make it look like he was an over-reacting pussy when in reality he was being electrocuted.

It was also MLSE who made Wince stop taking the ball to the rack and instead settle for jumpers.

Finally, it was MLSE who voiced over all his interviews aired in Canada where he admitted to not giving his full effort playing for Toronto.


Whew! I am glad I can start cheering for Wince and Michelle (it is Mother's Day afterall) again.

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Matt52 wrote:

Motherf*cker.... he can keep the kidney. I'd rather die. (just joking and I know organ transplants is probably not great joke material).


Regarding Vince Carter, as Johnny Cash said at the end of A Boy Named Sue: "I still hate that name!"

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I'm not a huge Carter fan (like any Raptors fan is), but some of those reasons are just terrible.
6) Injuries. I'm supposed to hate the guy because he got hurt? He didn't Paul Pierce it. He legitimately got injured and it sucked for him as much as it did for anyone else.
5) The Mo Pete slap. clearly Carter meant nothing bad by it and it was more about a ref that looked their way at the wrong time than it was about any real mallice. Carter even tried to smooth things over with the ref right after it happened.
4) Going to his graduation. Carter went to celebrate a huge accomplishment. When my kids look up to pro athletes, I hope they look up to one like Vince that took their education seriously and fully appreciated the opportunity that they were given in College. He was proud to have graduated and he had every right to be. Somehow jaunting down to NC and back made him miss that last shot of the game? BS. I still remember Oakley turning the ball over in the first half on one of his patented behind the back passes with a 100% turnover rate. The sixers got an easy basket on the resulting break-away. At the time, I told my friends "if they lose this game by a single point, I'm blaming Oakley because he should damn well know better by now than to pull that shit (even though he did it at least once a game). So if you want to blame somebody for the one-point loss, blame Charles Oakley. Or better yet, don't blame anybody. Oakley was great otherwise, and that team was generally solid, and they lost by a single point in game seven to another really good team. Boo hoo.
3) Making fun of Raptors fans for chanting MVP about CB. He was damn right. Chris Bosh was great, still is very good. But we knew then as we know now that there are a good number of players in the league that are way better.
2) The trade. Two things here: not Carter's fault that we got squat on the trade, though the fact that he publically wanted out surely didn't help leverage a good deal. But the video includes him mentioning the issues with team management in Toronto at the time, and he's right. It was a mess for a few years there and I'd be frustrated too if I were him.

The other items are all pretty fair (though I don't really care about the Vince's mom one either).

When the Raps/Nets had a pretty good rivalry, it was fun to boo Vince, but since he's pretty much off the map now, I can't be bothered. I did think it was pretty funny though, that he and Hedo were traded basically for one another.

I think part of the reason why there's so much booing for Vince is not (only) because of the way he left Toronto, but because his poor habits, laziness and immaturity kept us all from seeing Vince's true potential. The only time that I think we saw Vince at his absolute best was when he scored 17 points in like 6 minutes for the Nets during a Raps/Nets playoff game, then he needed oxygen on the bench after the outburst. Vince had a body built for basketball, long and lean, yet muscular and naturally strong. Had he done any sort of strength training, he probably would have looked like LBJ.

He had everything - good rebounding instincts, a willing and able passer, great handles, could play defence when he wanted to and excellent shooting mechanics, on top of his natural strength and athleticism. Kobe Bryant often marveled at the things that he would be able to do on the basketball court if he had Vince's body and ability (which, if I were Vince, I would be really offended by and would use as motivation to make me better).

Of all the Jordan pretenders, Vince should have been the Heir Apparent, if he had really focused on it instead of just speaking empty platitudes. Kobe got there through sheer force of will, but VC was twice the athlete that Kobe is. Now, Kobe continues to play at a high level and Vince is out of shape and a shadow of his former self. He should have been a top 5-10 player of all time and a lock for the HoF - I don't even think he'll get a sniff of the HoF now.

All of this doesn't mean that Vince should be booed, it means he should be pitied.

I personally think vince gets the standing O he deserves from raps fans already.. hes had it everytime hes played in t.o since he left..A huge corus of Boooooooooo's is all he will ever get from me

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big red wrote:

4) Going to his graduation. Carter went to celebrate a huge accomplishment. When my kids look up to pro athletes, I hope they look up to one like Vince that took their education seriously and fully appreciated the opportunity that they were given in College. He was proud to have graduated and he had every right to be.

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I have never understood this line of reasoning. It's not like he graduated on time. It's not like he went through a 4 yr program with a cohort of pals with whom he stayed up late debating theory. Did he want to be there with his men and women from the various study groups he participated in? His cohort was long gone from the university.

His graduation date was completely arbitrary. He could have easily deferred his graduation to the next convocation, in the fall. It would have been simple, but clearly his cohort/responsibilities in Toronto were not important enough to delay an arbitrary deadline.