The case for Rudy Gay to the Raptors: Heisley speaks to rumours (277)

LOL....the crazy times we were jesting about mid season are here and along with it extreme opinions based on rumours being passed off as inside information (Philly Insider). Could it just be possible that the Raptors are gauging the market/price of players including our own?....as well as fan reaction and also elicit offers from other teams thru knowledge of the level of talent being discussed?

We'll all have a chance to cast an opinion on the moves, draft and ultimately BC, say, sometime later in July. In the meantime I am enjoying the ride. There is nothing we can do about BC ...he is in charge right now. We can tar and feather him when all is said and done. My one hope is that the 8th pick be only used to move up in the draft (2-4).

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sleepz wrote:

But that's my point. Everyone was told that the "safe" approach was the way thye were going and 1 year into this approach it's back to hitting homeruns? Even you have acknowleged that the draft is the better option for the Raps moving forward. Instead of shrugging our collective shoulders and just acknowledging Colangelo's lies, the fans need to stay away from supporting this foolishness and voice their opinions of this epic failure of this current GM to manage a team.

We did this already folks. Fans didn't want to pay Bosh the maximum and were happy about him leaving but are fine with paying Gay just about the same? lol

In 5 years time when it plays out the same way is everyone going to then say, "not it makes sense to do it the right way"?

The sras need to align right in any scenario that is good (draft, trade or FA) but i nthe larket we are in, we know we should be the type of team trying to build through the draft. This building a team on the fly stuff will only end back where you have started with nothing really to show for it.

Colangelo lies to fanbase year after year and it's all good, because we the sheep, love to follow.

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I don't see acquiring Rudy Gay in the same light as previous homerun swings of O'Neal and Turkoglu.

O'Neal was coming off major injury. He had a $20M dollar contract over 2 years. He was 30 years old. Bosh was also a max contract on the roster at the same time and desperation to appease Bosh.

Turkoglu was coming off a NBA Finals run and was regarded as one of the biggest free agents of the summer. He was 30 years old. He was signed to a large, 5 year contract that would have taken him to 35 years of age had he stayed the entire contract. Bosh was a max contract at the time and there was desperation to appease him.

Gay has 3 years left on his deal. He is healthy (as far as is known). He is just turning 26 in August and entering his prime years. There is a possibility he could raise his game another notch. There is no max contract on the roster at this time. Also Toronto will have a starting lineup and 3 solid reserves taking the Raptors up to the salary cap of $58M - assuming just the minimum salary is sent out to consummate the trade. Adding 3 minimum contracts gives the Raptors about $10M to round out their roster before hitting the luxury tax. After this season, the Raptors will no longer enjoy cap space and will be limited to exceptions regardless of if Gay was on the roster or not.


Suggesting that the draft is the safe approach is not entirely true without tremendous luck. The draft is one approach. The Raptors have 4 lottery picks in the last 4 years - where has that got them? So a 6th is added, then a 7th? That does not sound like progress. It sounds like waiting to be a winner as time goes by. If JV is truly a franchise C, the Raptors have guys who will still be under 30 when he is creating terror in the middle. Also it appears there is opportunity for the Raptors to add a draft pick that could net them the player they desire at 8 later.


So, in conclusion, I do not think a trade for Gay is similar to previous (botched) homerun swings by Colangelo. Also there lies an opportunity for the Raptors to have its cake and eat it too with an elite wing added and a possible lottery pick.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I am with ya Matt. I think the same folks saying don't go get Gay will be the same ones wondering why we do not have our exceptions or TPE if we don't get him and we are stuck with vet minimum players.

sleepz: if Colangelo goes and gets AI, then I agree 99.9% with you.

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CalgaryRapsFan wrote:

But the Raps could trade #8 and rotation players for Gay, and then still have options for getting back into the lottery (ie: NO rumor, Houston rumor, or moving up from #25 that they hopefully would get back from Memphis). Given the rumors that are out there, this is a season where the Raps might not have to choose between "trade pick for homerun" and "draft rookie"... they could quite possibly be able to do both! That's the ultimate win-win!

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There are only rumours of this and we do not know how realistic they are.

Secondly it will not erase the fact you have close to $30 million invested in 2 players that have never been to an all-star game but have been in the league for 5+ years. Gay I know can possibly get there because he's at least been within a sniff before but as much as people hope to see Bargnani bloom, I don't forsee that happening. Can Gay even fit into what Casey wants to do defensively? A lot of questions to me and it seems like it's all being done in an effort to accelerate the process in getting good but you do that when you have a solid foundation, not a collection of average players like DeRozan and Bargnani as your stars for crying out loud!

It's so ironic that they are are fine with acquiring a player on a huge deal that they could have drafted a long time ago at a way better bargain than what they are about to spend now.

Forget the "rebuild" that was just something to say in the event of a bad year. Now we are 'building' or 'retooling' with our collection of subpar youngsters and scraps from other teams.

Hoping that one day a different GM will see the light and get it right.

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sleepz wrote:

There are only rumours of this and we do not know how realistic they are.

Secondly it will not erase the fact you have close to $30 million invested in 2 players that have never been to an all-star game but have been in the league for 5+ years. Gay I know can possibly get there because he's at least been within a sniff before but as much as people hope to see Bargnani bloom, I don't forsee that happening. Can Gay even fit into what Casey wants to do defensively? A lot of questions to me and it seems like it's all being done in an effort to accelerate the process in getting good but you do that when you have a solid foundation, not a collection of average players like DeRozan and Bargnani as your stars for crying out loud!

It's so ironic that they are are fine with acquiring a player on a huge deal that they could have drafted a long time ago at a way better bargain than what they are about to spend now.

Forget the "rebuild" that was just something to say in the event of a bad year. Now we are 'building' or 'retooling' with our collection of subpar youngsters and scraps from other teams.

Hoping that one day a different GM will see the light and get it right.

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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think I can debate with you if you consider Bargnani a "subpar youngster" and Gay a "scrap from other teams".

Frankly, I think that Bargnani would have been an allstar this season if not for his injury. Gay is a proven commodity that has often at least been in the allstar conversation, who has always been a solid contributor at both ends of the court. Bargnani will be 27 and Gay will be 26 this season, so I would argue they are both just now hitting their prime and I think both still have room for futher improvement. You add Valanciunas and potentially another 1st round pick to this team, that would still include DeRozan (will only be 23 this season), who has lots of room for improvement (and I've been as hard on DD as anyone), and I don't get how you can argue that a "rebuild" or "building" process is being derailed...

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sleepz wrote:

There are only rumours of this and we do not know how realistic they are.

Secondly it will not erase the fact you have close to $30 million invested in 2 players that have never been to an all-star game but have been in the league for 5+ years. Gay I know can possibly get there because he's at least been within a sniff before but as much as people hope to see Bargnani bloom, I don't forsee that happening. Can Gay even fit into what Casey wants to do defensively? A lot of questions to me and it seems like it's all being done in an effort to accelerate the process in getting good but you do that when you have a solid foundation, not a collection of average players like DeRozan and Bargnani as your stars for crying out loud!

It's so ironic that they are are fine with acquiring a player on a huge deal that they could have drafted a long time ago at a way better bargain than what they are about to spend now.

Forget the "rebuild" that was just something to say in the event of a bad year. Now we are 'building' or 'retooling' with our collection of subpar youngsters and scraps from other teams.

Hoping that one day a different GM will see the light and get it right.

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Sleepz, your bias against Colangelo and Bargnani (whether warranted or not) is skewing your view of the Raptors current circumstances. This year and this year alone, they have the opportunity to take on a borderline star player - because of his salary- and still have assets that give them the opportunity to acquire a late lottery pick. As has been mentioned earlier - this is the best of both worlds. We are not likely to get a game changer at 8, as a matter of fact we are probably just as likley at 14-16.

If we do take on salary then we get to use Bird rights, TPE and MLE and bi-annual should we choose. If we don't take on salary and just select at 8 we lose all the aforementioned assets.

If we can get Gay, gain these assets and have a decent chance at getting another mid first pick we'd be stupid not to go that route. If you think we're on our way to a championship by drafting 8th the next 3 years - show me where that has been done before.

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Matt52 wrote:

I don't see acquiring Rudy Gay in the same light as previous homerun swings of O'Neal and Turkoglu.

O'Neal was coming off major injury. He had a $20M dollar contract over 2 years. He was 30 years old. Bosh was also a max contract on the roster at the same time and desperation to appease Bosh.

Turkoglu was coming off a NBA Finals run and was regarded as one of the biggest free agents of the summer. He was 30 years old. He was signed to a large, 5 year contract that would have taken him to 35 years of age had he stayed the entire contract. Bosh was a max contract at the time and there was desperation to appease him.

Gay has 3 years left on his deal. He is healthy (as far as is known). He is just turning 26 in August and entering his prime years. There is a possibility he could raise his game another notch. There is no max contract on the roster at this time. Also Toronto will have a starting lineup and 3 solid reserves taking the Raptors up to the salary cap of $58M - assuming just the minimum salary is sent out to consummate the trade. Adding 3 minimum contracts gives the Raptors about $10M to round out their roster before hitting the luxury tax. After this season, the Raptors will no longer enjoy cap space and will be limited to exceptions regardless of if Gay was on the roster or not.


Suggesting that the draft is the safe approach is not entirely true without tremendous luck. The draft is one approach. The Raptors have 4 lottery picks in the last 4 years - where has that got them? So a 6th is added, then a 7th? That does not sound like progress. It sounds like waiting to be a winner as time goes by. If JV is truly a franchise C, the Raptors have guys who will still be under 30 when he is creating terror in the middle. Also it appears there is opportunity for the Raptors to add a draft pick that could net them the player they desire at 8 later.


So, in conclusion, I do not think a trade for Gay is similar to previous (botched) homerun swings by Colangelo. Also there lies an opportunity for the Raptors to have its cake and eat it too with an elite wing added and a possible lottery pick.

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So do you consider rumored moves of acquiring Gay, still having Bargnani's deal on the books and possibly acquiring Nash as Colangelo "It took 5 years but I finally get it"?

Any apporach needs luck draft or not but youth is currency and rookie contracts are the best and easily manageable asset for a GM in the NBA. The Raps have 4 lottery picks in the last 4 years and where has it got them? Good question, considering Colangelo has been saying he wants to build around these same players for the last how long? JV is a lottery pick that everyone is trumpeting as their 5 for the forseeable future. Add a 6th, 7th and 8th pick as far as I'm concerned. However long it takes until you actually have a collection of talented young players to build around and then give out the money based on their abilities and production moving into the future. Is Gay that type of player? Perhaps, but considering a team that is a playoff contender is prepared to move him, there is obviously room for debate. Is Gay an elite wing? I say he could be but others say he's not and there is a legit argument to be made for both sides. This is not like acquiring Durrant or Lebron. This is not a guaranteed winner no matter what anyone wants to say about it, especially when the players he will be playing with now are going to be considerably worse than any players he has balled with recently.
How do you know if he even wants to come here? lol. I wouldn't if I was in his shoes.

This is another homerun swing. Blatant attempt to try and put the Raps in the playoff picture and to save a lame GM's job and garner an extension. We knew this was coming. How quickly would Colangelo forgo patience when he wants a new deal?

There is no guarantee Gay is an elite wing and this is coming from someone who likes his game. There is no guarantee that there is an option to still get a lottery pick. The only thing I know for sure is we will be speaking about rebuilding again in the near future. Colangelo's track record as Gm of the Raps has given me enuff precedent to make this type of statement and be more than justified for saying it.

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Matt52 wrote:

sleepz: if Colangelo goes and gets AI, then I agree 99.9% with you.

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But why? There is an argument ot be made that he's actually a better player. If Andrea is your "primary scorer" wouldn't he fit in better (defence, rebounding, assists, etc).

Now I know you are going to say Gay is younger and has more upside which I am more than prepared to conceed. I could also forsee the fanbase knocking AI because he's not going to be a primary scorer and be effective in this role, but I just think we are trying to accelerate a process that is usually slow and painful.

No GM in our history has ever gone the full rebuild mode, because it's painful and there are no guarantees like you've mentioned before, but I as a fan would rather go that route and try to make something beautiful instead of putting lipstick on a pig (harsh I know but necessary for the imagery).lol

I've seen this movie before and it always ends we me wanting my money back. No quick fixes. I'm not the biggest fan of OKC but watching that team last night, I thought that those fans must want to talk OKC ball night and day cuz their team did it the right way. Their stars are young and are growing up in the organization that drafted them and the fanbase is so energized by it that its something amazing to watch.

sleepz, all I can say is that sometimes a homerun swing results in a ball actually clearing the fence ;)

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CalgaryRapsFan wrote:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think I can debate with you if you consider Bargnani a "subpar youngster" and Gay a "scrap from other teams".

Frankly, I think that Bargnani would have been an allstar this season if not for his injury. Gay is a proven commodity that has often at least been in the allstar conversation, who has always been a solid contributor at both ends of the court. Bargnani will be 27 and Gay will be 26 this season, so I would argue they are both just now hitting their prime and I think both still have room for futher improvement. You add Valanciunas and potentially another 1st round pick to this team, that would still include DeRozan (will only be 23 this season), who has lots of room for improvement (and I've been as hard on DD as anyone), and I don't get how you can argue that a "rebuild" or "building" process is being derailed...

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We will have to disagree. Bargnani was not making the all-star team. If Josh Smith couldn't make it healthy, Andrea was nowhere near it especially playing for a 23 win squad.

This is not the type of talent that you invest in. Gay is a solid player don't get me wrong but I think he is being propped up by this fanbase because they want something to cheer about and get excited about. A Gay, Bargnani (we know who he is), Derozan (we know who he is), JV (TBD) is getting us where?

Maybe I'm too demanding but I'm not satisifed with being 1st round playoff fodder.

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OnTheRightTrack wrote:

Sleepz, your bias against Colangelo and Bargnani (whether warranted or not) is skewing your view of the Raptors current circumstances. This year and this year alone, they have the opportunity to take on a borderline star player - because of his salary- and still have assets that give them the opportunity to acquire a late lottery pick. As has been mentioned earlier - this is the best of both worlds. We are not likely to get a game changer at 8, as a matter of fact we are probably just as likley at 14-16.
If we do take on salary then we get to use Bird rights, TPE and MLE and bi-annual should we choose. If we don't take on salary and just select at 8 we lose all the aforementioned assets.

If we can get Gay, gain these assets and have a decent chance at getting another mid first pick we'd be stupid not to go that route. If you think we're on our way to a championship by drafting 8th the next 3 years - show me where that has been done before.

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No bias. I just tend to let production and past history be the basis of my opinions.

Should I not be wary of acquiring a "borderline all-star" with $54 million left on his deal? What if he is not too excited about the possibility of playing in Toronto? There's no bias in these concerns.

Who's to say that Raps can acquire another lottery pick? You're also not sure that a player cannot be acquired at #8 that will be as good or better than Gay. In fact, in a much weaker draft about 6-7 years ago a player named Rudy Gay went #8, so your assumption that it is not possible doesn't deter my optimism regarding this pick.

I never said that in 3 years you will be at the point of a championship, but within those 3 years you will have enough young assets to start to make proper decisions with this goal in mind without it being a pipedream and without being tied up in salary obligations that are unmanageable. What will be your respons i n 3 years when the team is capped out, have reached their ceiling and will not have much talented youth to move forward with? You will probably say those #7 seed finishes were good while they lasted.

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Nilanka wrote:

sleepz, all I can say is that sometimes a homerun swing results in a ball actually clearing the fence ;)

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Lol, it does. Also depends on who the hitter is. If it's Bautista then you got a shot. If it's Arencibia (no disrespect to him of course) then a strike-out or pop out to 3rd is a more likely option.

Colangelo is the Arencibia of GM's

@sleepz - Here's my glass if half-full view....

I thought Colangelo should have been fired after the Turkoglu debacle but he wasn't. He's still here. So, I say let him put together whatever quick fix, instamatic, one hour dry cleaning, strong abs in just 3 minutes a day roster he wants. When it fails, as it inevitably will, there won't be any more excuses. Then, the organization can actually try and get on track under proper management. Even if you brought in a new GM tomorrow, it would take 2-3 years to clean up this mess. Adding another 1-2 years isn't the end of the world. Heck, I've been watching horrible Raps teams for the better part of 16 years. I still watch. If it means getting rid of Colangelo and Company, I'm more than happy to stick it out for another few years...

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slaw wrote:

@sleepz - Here's my glass if half-full view....

I thought Colangelo should have been fired after the Turkoglu debacle but he wasn't. He's still here. So, I say let him put together whatever quick fix, instamatic, one hour dry cleaning, strong abs in just 3 minutes a day roster he wants. When it fails, as it inevitably will, there won't be any more excuses. Then, the organization can actually try and get on track under proper management. Even if you brought in a new GM tomorrow, it would take 2-3 years to clean up this mess. Adding another 1-2 years isn't the end of the world. Heck, I've been watching horrible Raps teams for the better part of 16 years. I still watch. If it means getting rid of Colangelo and Company, I'm more than happy to stick it out for another few years...

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+1

If he doesn't get it this time, good bye Bryan.

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sleepz wrote:

So do you consider rumored moves of acquiring Gay, still having Bargnani's deal on the books and possibly acquiring Nash as Colangelo "It took 5 years but I finally get it"?

Any apporach needs luck draft or not but youth is currency and rookie contracts are the best and easily manageable asset for a GM in the NBA. The Raps have 4 lottery picks in the last 4 years and where has it got them? Good question, considering Colangelo has been saying he wants to build around these same players for the last how long? JV is a lottery pick that everyone is trumpeting as their 5 for the forseeable future. Add a 6th, 7th and 8th pick as far as I'm concerned. However long it takes until you actually have a collection of talented young players to build around and then give out the money based on their abilities and production moving into the future. Is Gay that type of player? Perhaps, but considering a team that is a playoff contender is prepared to move him, there is obviously room for debate. Is Gay an elite wing? I say he could be but others say he's not and there is a legit argument to be made for both sides. This is not like acquiring Durrant or Lebron. This is not a guaranteed winner no matter what anyone wants to say about it, especially when the players he will be playing with now are going to be considerably worse than any players he has balled with recently.
How do you know if he even wants to come here? lol. I wouldn't if I was in his shoes.

This is another homerun swing. Blatant attempt to try and put the Raps in the playoff picture and to save a lame GM's job and garner an extension. We knew this was coming. How quickly would Colangelo forgo patience when he wants a new deal?

There is no guarantee Gay is an elite wing and this is coming from someone who likes his game. There is no guarantee that there is an option to still get a lottery pick. The only thing I know for sure is we will be speaking about rebuilding again in the near future. Colangelo's track record as Gm of the Raps has given me enuff precedent to make this type of statement and be more than justified for saying it.

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Clearly we'll have to disagree on a number of fronts.

The biggest one appears to be the notion that there is only one way to build. Looking around the league, there are a number of teams in present and historically who have failed at the method you propose.

I don't know what deals are out there but you did not acknowledge the possibility of getting Gay AND a lottery pick. That would seem to address concerns on both fronts.

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sleepz wrote:

No bias. I just tend to let production and past history be the basis of my opinions.

Should I not be wary of acquiring a "borderline all-star" with $54 million left on his deal? What if he is not too excited about the possibility of playing in Toronto? There's no bias in these concerns.

Who's to say that Raps can acquire another lottery pick? You're also not sure that a player cannot be acquired at #8 that will be as good or better than Gay. In fact, in a much weaker draft about 6-7 years ago a player named Rudy Gay went #8, so your assumption that it is not possible doesn't deter my optimism regarding this pick.

I never said that in 3 years you will be at the point of a championship, but within those 3 years you will have enough young assets to start to make proper decisions with this goal in mind without it being a pipedream and without being tied up in salary obligations that are unmanageable. What will be your respons i n 3 years when the team is capped out, have reached their ceiling and will not have much talented youth to move forward with? You will probably say those #7 seed finishes were good while they lasted.

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How would the team be capped out in 3 seasons? If the Raps trade for Gay and do a deal with NO, they'd likely be about $10M over the cap.
- Calderon's $10M expires after one season
- Ariza's $7M and Kleiza's $4.5M expire after one or two (player options for 2nd season)
- Amir's $7M, Bargnani's $12M and Gay's $19M expire after three seasons

In fact, those 3 players (Bargnani, Gay and Amir) would be the only players even under contract for year #3 (2014/15), other than DeRozan (if re-signed), Valanciunas and any rookies drafted this year (or in the next two drafts).

In 3 years, Bargnani is 30, Gay is 29, DeRozan is 26, Valanciunas is 23, they would have 1 or 2 2012 1st round rookies, 1 2013 first round rookie and 1 2014 first round rookie. That is 8 good young players to form a core nucleous in 3 years from now (only 2 of the 8 would be over 26 years old!).

It would be a good young team with improved talent and really good salary cap flexibility, despite the big contracts currently owed to Bargnani and Gay. The team could acquire the #10 pick from NO to make up for trading away the #8 pick AND might get the #25 pick too!!!

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Matt52 wrote:

Mango: what team could provide Memphis with a return better than what Toronto could offer?

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Matt, you swayed me over. I was strongly against R Gay trade, but your analysis persuaded me.
-I don't see where Memphis can do better (GS maybe talent wise, but getting stuck with either Biedrins or Jefferson would reduce the value.
-In terms or why would Memphis do it: simple:
-They have no choice. Heisley indicated -paying tax is not an option; Gay is basically their only reasonable option. I assume Gasol is not going anywhere.
-Staying put (and paying tax) -what is the point. This team (and current payroll) cannot beat 5th team in the West. What chance do they have against OKC, SA or even Lakers?
My biggest concern was trading DD, Davis & 8th (possibly more, thus reducing our depth) for a grossly overpriced marginal all star at best. If we can get Gay for 2012 pick, Ed & maybe JJ (or Ed, Calderon & 8th) makes a lot of sense.
I would still consider giving Batum 12-14 mil first (since no other assets would be involved).
IMO either deal (getting R Gay or Batum) would justify trying to get Nash (and increase likely-hood of doing so).
Impressive opening analysis.

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sleepz wrote:

Lol, it does. Also depends on who the hitter is. If it's Bautista then you got a shot. If it's Arencibia (no disrespect to him of course) then a strike-out or pop out to 3rd is a more likely option.

Colangelo is the Arencibia of GM's

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At the risk of getting too far off topic, I say this:

"Dude, Arencibia was batting cleanup last night" :p