Calm the eff down

It's two games, 3 new starters, 8 New players, a new focus on offense, against a seasoned team that many expect to be 2nd or 3rd this season (Indiana) and a team that is assembled with two all stars in the back court and that is also expected to finish somewhere between 2nd and 4th. WE WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO WIN THESE GAMES...no sensible objective person in any sports betting arena would have money on the Raptors winning that game.

"This lineup isn't working" - Maybe, maybe not. Please say this after a concrete 15 - 20 game sample size.

"Fire Colangelo" - really already getting these threads two games in? You try and be a GM of a team in Toronto when there are 5 state tax exempt teams (San Antonio, Miami, Orlando, Houston, and Dallas) 4 big city markets with huge sponsorship potential Nets, Knicks, Lakers, Clippers. Every single free agent with a choice and worth a decent pay check is going to to go to those teams. How the hell do you expect any GM who essentially starts with his foot 1/3 in the hole to do? Has been bang on in everything he does...hell no. Has made decisions I thought were terrible at the time that turned out to be right? Several times, (Bargs contract, drafting JV etc.)

If we are going to build a successful team it is going to be in the mold of teams like Indiana, Utah, Detroit. Even though we are a larger market that is the formula we will have to follow.

Remember a season of between 37 - 45 wins with us keeping the majority of the losses close until the final minutes, is a success compared to where we have been. 8th seed is a nice goal, but it won't be a failure if we don't get there.

+10000

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thead wrote:

...Remember a season of between 37 - 45 wins with us keeping the majority of the losses close until the final minutes, is a success compared to where we have been. 8th seed is a nice goal, but it won't be a failure if we don't get there.

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Oh yeah? But that just means we will be stuck in mediocrity through all infinity and every player who ever comes here and is any good will bolt at the first chance. ;-)

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thead wrote:

"Fire Colangelo" - really already getting these threads two games in? You try and be a GM of a team in Toronto when there are 5 state tax exempt teams (San Antonio, Miami, Orlando, Houston, and Dallas) 4 big city markets with huge sponsorship potential Nets, Knicks, Lakers, Clippers. Every single free agent with a choice and worth a decent pay check is going to to go to those teams. How the hell do you expect any GM who essentially starts with his foot 1/3 in the hole to do? Has been bang on in everything he does...hell no. Has made decisions I thought were terrible at the time that turned out to be right? Several times, (Bargs contract, drafting JV etc.)

If we are going to build a successful team it is going to be in the mold of teams like Indiana, Utah, Detroit. Even though we are a larger market that is the formula we will have to follow.

Remember a season of between 37 - 45 wins with us keeping the majority of the losses close until the final minutes, is a success compared to where we have been. 8th seed is a nice goal, but it won't be a failure if we don't get there.

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I think Colangelo should have been fired after he got virtually no return for Bosh leaving. Yes I would look at Utah and Denver also as models that we should have tried to emulate. They traded away stars whom they had very little chance of resigning and rebuilt their teams on the fly without missing a beat.

I think Colangelo made mistakes before Bosh left while trying to build a contender, and I think he has made mistakes since then trying a rebuild, rushing it, and proclaiming it was time to get competitive this year when (coincidentally) he has very little time left on his contract to try to show some improvement.

As I explained in the Fire Colangelo thread, I don't think he is building towards being a perennial contender. You disagree? Fine. But it is not after 2 games that I have come to this conclusion. It is after 6 years and 2 games, that I think this team isn't going in the right direction, and a change at the top is in order.

37 wins? A bunch of close losses and maybe missing out on the 8th seed would be satisfactory to you? I am sorry but I don't see how that result with this group is putting us on a trajectory towards contention. If you think its too early to complain about this guy then you are entitled to your opinion. Personally I think it is long overdue.

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madeupid25 wrote:

I think Colangelo should have been fired after he got virtually no return for Bosh leaving. Yes I would look at Utah and Denver also as models that we should have tried to emulate. They traded away stars whom they had very little chance of resigning and rebuilt their teams on the fly without missing a beat.

I think Colangelo made mistakes before Bosh left while trying to build a contender, and I think he has made mistakes since then trying a rebuild, rushing it, and proclaiming it was time to get competitive this year when (coincidentally) he has very little time left on his contract to try to show some improvement.

As I explained in the Fire Colangelo thread, I don't think he is building towards being a perennial contender. You disagree? Fine. But it is not after 2 games that I have come to this conclusion. It is after 6 years and 2 games, that I think this team isn't going in the right direction, and a change at the top is in order.

37 wins? A bunch of close losses and maybe missing out on the 8th seed would be satisfactory to you? I am sorry but I don't see how that result with this group is putting us on a trajectory towards contention. If you think its too early to complain about this guy then you are entitled to your opinion. Personally I think it is long overdue.

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It would be worth the time to visit Basketball-Reference.com and look at the teams currently in the playoffs. Then go back to the 1999-2000 season and click the 'next season' button until present time. I think you will be hard pressed to find teams that went from 20 wins to 45 wins in one season. Sure it has happened (hell it even happened in Toronto) but it is extremely rare and often temporary. If the goal is to compete for deep playoff runs, then slow and steady is likely to win the race.

Right on!!! 2 effen games, against quality teams that could easily have been wins, and the panic and discontent being expressed is astonishing. 2 effen games! With a few exceptions, the general mentality at RR seems to be of the "spoiled child needing instant gratification" variety. 2 effen games!! Good lord!

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madeupid25 wrote:

...37 wins? A bunch of close losses and maybe missing out on the 8th seed would be satisfactory to you? I am sorry but I don't see how that result with this group is putting us on a trajectory towards contention. If you think its too early to complain about this guy then you are entitled to your opinion. Personally I think it is long overdue.

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So, given the talent, what number of wins would satisfy you? Realistically, firing Colangelo would have no impact on the talent of the team, so how do you measure satisfaction this year. If you say, the wins don't matter, then just GTFOOH. Go talk to Tannenbaum on the Basketball Team Owners forum. What result with this group WOULD put the Raps on a trajectory towards contention? How would YOU put the team on a trajectory towards contention if you don't believe that upgrading the talent for two years in a row would, because realistically, that is what Bryan has done.

Hard not to believe that a lot of these posters aren't straight on trolls. Or maybe refugees from the "wave a magic wand and get what you want" universe.

i agree its still early.. however unless the raps rehire Dave Hopla or someone to work on Fields & DD's shots then i predict a lot of bricks this season...Fields Shot has looked as ugly as E.Davis last season LOL Demar has Improved but still needs to get better, other then that ive liked the effort most of the time..still awork in progress but im still optimistic

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madeupid25 wrote:

I think Colangelo should have been fired after he got virtually no return for Bosh leaving.

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Bosh was the one who gave mixed signals. I don't think that was Colangelo's fault entirely. It was a situation where he was trying to retain Bosh because he genuinely seemed on the fence.

I think he's done a solid job rebuilding the franchise. He's made a really great hire in Dwane Casey, who I think we all believe is a big difference maker as a coach. He's brought in an All-Star caliber PG in Kyle Lowry, and despite the Bargnani draft pick (which was a mistake IMO) he didn't hesitate to draft another European 7-footer in JV who I think is going to be a stud in this league. He's a GM who knows the ins and outs of this league. He's doing a fine job if you ask me.

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Puffer wrote:

So, given the talent, what number of wins would satisfy you? Realistically, firing Colangelo would have no impact on the talent of the team, so how do you measure satisfaction this year. If you say, the wins don't matter, then just GTFOOH. Go talk to Tannenbaum on the Basketball Team Owners forum. What result with this group WOULD put the Raps on a trajectory towards contention? How would YOU put the team on a trajectory towards contention if you don't believe that upgrading the talent for two years in a row would, because realistically, that is what Bryan has done.

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How many wins? I dunno, like 10 maybe. So we could have had a shot at drafting a legit franchise player to build around. Hey you guys are thrilled with his performace? Great. I hope you are right. I disagree, and that makes me a troll, a spoiled child, or whatever. I am just not happy with many of his moves, with how he justifies them, and I don't believe that the Toronto Raptors will will a championship with Bryan Colangelo as GM. Agree to disagree. You don't have to be a dick about it.

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madeupid25 wrote:

...Agree to disagree. You don't have to be a dick about it.

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I'm not being a dick about it, I am just sick and tired of guys saying "The raps aren't going to be contenders any time soon. fire Colangelo." As if having a different GM is going to make them contenders. The question I put to you was, what would satisfy you that they were on the trajectory towards being a contender. Tanking for 3 years until they get a guaranteed Monster All-Star talent doesn't put you on that trajectory. It puts you on the trajectory of having your team close up shop and move to a city in the states. Vancouver sucked for years and look what happened. Tanking means people stop coming out to the games, and owners lose money, so they sell the team.

There have been a lot of other GM's the Raps have had. You think it is a coincidence that they haven't been able to get multiple all-stars? What is the secret??? Oh yeah. I forgot. It's make better trades, exchanging the Raptors trash for other teams effective players. And then resign them for less that the league average for players of their quality. Boy! Why didn't Colangelo, or any of the other Raptors GM's ever think of that? Who new it could be so easy.

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Puffer wrote:

I'm not being a dick about it, I am just sick and tired of guys saying "The raps aren't going to be contenders any time soon. fire Colangelo." As if having a different GM is going to make them contenders. The question I put to you was, what would satisfy you that they were on the trajectory towards being a contender. Tanking for 3 years until they get a guaranteed Monster All-Star talent doesn't put you on that trajectory. It puts you on the trajectory of having your team close up shop and move to a city in the states. Vancouver sucked for years and look what happened. Tanking means people stop coming out to the games, and owners lose money, so they sell the team.

There have been a lot of other GM's the Raps have had. You think it is a coincidence that they haven't been able to get multiple all-stars? What is the secret??? Oh yeah. I forgot. It's make better trades, exchanging the Raptors trash for other teams effective players. And then resign them for less that the league average for players of their quality. Boy! Why didn't Colangelo, or any of the other Raptors GM's ever think of that? Who new it could be so easy.

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+1 - although my sarcasm radar is certainly creating quite a bit of noise right now.

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Matt52 wrote:

+1 - although my sarcasm radar is certainly creating quite a bit of noise right now.

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Did I come across as sarcastic? I'll have to watch that. :-)

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p00ka wrote:

Right on!!! 2 effen games, against quality teams that could easily have been wins, and the panic and discontent being expressed is astonishing. 2 effen games! With a few exceptions, the general mentality at RR seems to be of the "spoiled child needing instant gratification" variety. 2 effen games!! Good lord!

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If The Lakers are not hitting the panic button after 0-3 start, who the heck are we to be hitting it after to very close losses. Lakers games were not even close!

Take a chill pill guys. At least our guys don't give up like teams of past!
Go Raps!

That was not intended to you p00k. Just to those who are not happy with finally having basketball back and having a team that actually cares and players who truly wants to be in Canada!

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Stahmenah_Vybz wrote:

That was not intended to you p00k. Just to those who are not happy with finally having basketball back and having a team that actually cares and players who truly wants to be in Canada!

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I understood. To paraphrase a one time American coach of the Calgary Flames, who's love was of hockey, and he felt this way every day there was a hockey game, "It's a great day for basketball!' Yes, beats the hell out of this time last year. 2 games down, 80 to go!!!

I'll never really understand the mindset that improving (i.e. becoming a playoff team) is worthless and stupid because then you are stuck in mediocrity. Being a regular playoff team, even if it' a mediocre one, is a hell of a lot better than being bad. If all you had to do to be elite was tank for a few years then why isn't Golden State a contender by now? Charlotte? The Bucks?

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Matt52 wrote:

It would be worth the time to visit Basketball-Reference.com and look at the teams currently in the playoffs. Then go back to the 1999-2000 season and click the 'next season' button until present time. I think you will be hard pressed to find teams that went from 20 wins to 45 wins in one season. Sure it has happened (hell it even happened in Toronto) but it is extremely rare and often temporary. If the goal is to compete for deep playoff runs, then slow and steady is likely to win the race.

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and once again Matt has the right idea. Its not either we are a winning team or a losing team. We either expect a lose, or expect a win. The truth is, a team is a complex organic, growing, entity. Its happened that without touching the core units, a team has jumped 10 wins, or dropped 20 wins. Everything from the connections between 2 particular players, or tension in the locker room, or the coaches effectiveness in gathering respect from his players, dictates how well the season goes, and the win total.

A team needs to be put in a proper environment with a strong foundation, encouraging a specific culture. We need a team where everyone knows their roles, and has the talent to compete. I believe that the culture, now with Dwayne Casey is exactly where we want it to be at this moment. Our potential talent is also high enough to compete.

Lowry, Bargnani, Derozan, JV. all of them are younger than 27, all of them have some serious talent. Lets allow that talent to flourish with Casey's new culture, and THEN judge if we are stuck in mediocrity.

If you want to be stuck in mediocrity, try having a high turnover rate for players on your team each year. Changing 8 players every season is a great way to consistently watch an unfinished product. Lets stop calling for heads to roll, and let this team play.

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madeupid25 wrote:

How many wins? I dunno, like 10 maybe. So we could have had a shot at drafting a legit franchise player to build around. Hey you guys are thrilled with his performace? Great. I hope you are right. I disagree, and that makes me a troll, a spoiled child, or whatever. I am just not happy with many of his moves, with how he justifies them, and I don't believe that the Toronto Raptors will will a championship with Bryan Colangelo as GM. Agree to disagree. You don't have to be a dick about it.

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lol no offense but why the hell are you even a Raptors fan? Go love bandwagon the Lakers or the Nets if you want to be a fan of a winning team. Some fans are just f-ing stupid it's ridiculous. No one is asking you to like the Raptors. If you're so into winning blowout games, go be a fan of the Heat and not be a Raptors fan. Just because you're a Canadian, no one is making be a Raptors fan...