Has Bargnani Plateaued?

Before I merge this into the "Everything Bargnani" thread in a couple days, just thought I'd do a poll and discussion on what fans thought of Andrea now. Not really the "Face of the franchise" pressures like season's past now with DeMar and Lowry stepping up, but since camp started, following him through preseason and the first 5 games he definitely isn't the star fans once dreamt he'd be. Still a solid contributor to our team, but considering the pressure might have lessened this season compared to prior ones, did you kind of expect him to step up somewhat?

Just curious to know what the rest of your think. :confused:

I thought he plateaued 4 years ago.... :p

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Nilanka wrote:

I thought he plateaued 4 years ago.... :p

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*Bah-dum-bum* ZING

he's been in the league 7 years now. 7! and they still keep talking about him having a "breakout" season. that should have happened in his 3rd or 4th year.

so to answer the question, yes.

Absolutely. He can still make minor changes here and there (better effort on D and boards), but largely what you see is what you will get. That said, if he was your 3rd guy, then you'd have a really good offence, but he isn't a #1 star player.

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ceez wrote:

he's been in the league 7 years now. 7! and they still keep talking about him having a "breakout" season. that should have happened in his 3rd or 4th year.

so to answer the question, yes.

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was going to say no... til i read your post... jesus christ, 7 years already...

Bargs is like VC they can GET BY with out really trying as hard as others. Every once and a while they will really rev it up but not sustain it... no hunger

Bargs is nothing like VC. VC's limitations were due to lack of effort and drive. Bargnani's limitations are due to his actual limitations.

This is what he is, he's a tall guy with a pretty good shot, he's not an athlete, he doesn't have a high basketball IQ, he's not strong, he's not quick, he's not agile. He's just a 7 footer with a pretty good shot. That's the start and end of Andrea Bargnani.

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Letter N wrote:

Bargs is nothing like VC. VC's limitations were due to lack of effort and drive. Bargnani's limitations are due to his actual limitations.

This is what he is, he's a tall guy with a pretty good shot, he's not an athlete, he doesn't have a high basketball IQ, he's not strong, he's not quick, he's not agile. He's just a 7 footer with a pretty good shot. That's the start and end of Andrea Bargnani.

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I think he has remarkable agility for his size and a very high basketball IQ - add to that he is very skilled.

I watch him "defend" and rebound (use the term loosely) and I can tell his is not a champion, it doesn't matter for him to hustle... its glaring now when you see him next to JV - whose motor is off the chart.

Also compare bargs body to Amir team mates who have been in the league about the same time. Set genetics aside on a scale of 1-10 how hard would you say they respectively worked out their body in the off season Amir 9.5/10 effort Bargs 6/10 effort.

thats my opinion - either way its really disappointing - because as the thread started asked HAS HE PLAYED HIS BEST BALL? i think yes.

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Doc Naismith wrote:

Before I merge this into the "Everything Bargnani" thread in a couple days, just thought I'd do a poll and discussion on what fans thought of Andrea now. Not really the "Face of the franchise" pressures like season's past now with DeMar and Lowry stepping up, but since camp started, following him through preseason and the first 5 games he definitely isn't the star fans once dreamt he'd be. Still a solid contributor to our team, but considering the pressure might have lessened this season compared to prior ones, did you kind of expect him to step up somewhat?

Just curious to know what the rest of your think. :confused:

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why is an administrator trolling? :p this thread is sure to get erm passionate responses.

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akashsingh wrote:

why is an administrator trolling? :p this thread is sure to get erm passionate responses.

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I haven't stirred up shit in a couple years. I get a pass this time. ;)

Bargs Has peaked..its all downhill from here..move him now! try to package him for a legit SF & start E.Davis for now..id say throw jose in the trade too but with Lowry out for who knows how long we may need him.. Lucas has looked horrid since the season started & Fields couldnt hit a bucket even if he was playing against high schoolers LOL

I'm going to be the first one to say no. For a couple of reasons.

For one, if he has plateaued, that would mean that he would play at a relatively stable level (right?). And this year, so far, he has regressed.

But that's the negative reason. I guess the intention of the no-voters is to say he's terrible and won't get better. I don't agree with that if based on this year's play. I think he should be able to play like he did last year on average. Somewhere between the good and the bad.

There seems to be a lot of Bargnani hate, probably because even the 'haters' hoped he'd play like his good games last year and the 'lovers' hoped he'd play like those games. Both sides are disappointed (and angry). It's probably also because he isn't exactly a hustle player, but a 'finesse' player. So, when he's not playing well, he's attacked for lazyness, lack of effort, etc. And this is seen as 'disgusting' (lots of '''s...) because effort is easy right? Personally I believe that effort (see motor) is just as much based on talent and development as skill. Players who are no longer in an early stage of development rarely develop either of those, motor or skill, on a high level they haven't done so during their development stage and certainly not when they seem to lack the natural disposition for it.

I don't think it's any fairer to harshly (and on a ad hominem level) criticize players for motor or a 'winner's mentality' than it is to criticize someone for lack of natural skills. Yet, we are more inclined to love JYD's hustle than Bargnani's skill. One obvious reason is that the hustling type players always deliver that hustle while 'finesse' players don't exhibit their skills every day. In Bargnani's case that's exactly because he lacks this combination of physicality and mentality which makes up a this hustling player. It's not in his genes and there is no reason to hate him for it or to blame him on a personal level for it. If he had those skills as well, btw, he'd be a top player in the league (and a max salary player for sure).

I also blame the Raptor's organisation more for the Bargnani era than Bargnani himself. I am seriously doubting the developmental skills of the Raptors. And this is based not only on the development of Bargnani but also on the (too) minimal development of our other young players. Except for Bosh I don't know anyone who really developed in 'recent' years. Maybe I'm missing someone.

Bargnani clearly is having a difficult time. It's pretty obvious to me that he needs the right environment to thrive, this goes for the system he plays in as much as for the social (mental?) environment. This clearly isn't right. And if it isn't right Bargnani doens't have the mental skills to play through it like some topplayers or hustle players. He lacks that ability and it's hard to blame him for it. Not all people are mentally strong (most are not) and you can't just decide to be mentally strong just like DeRozan can't simply decide to be a good threepointshooter. We see how difficult it is to become a good threepointshooter, yet this is far more easy to improve on a 'simple' physical skill than changing your mental make-up.

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Nilanka wrote:

I thought he plateaued 4 years ago.... :p

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I'm not sure if this was meant to be a joke or not. But I agree with it none the less.

Any strides he's made over the years are marginal and usually short term.

He really has not changed aside for 13 games last year.

I don't like how Bargnani, up to this day, tries to play like a small forward. Simple pump fake -> straight line drives. He has not learned how to play angles, has not developed an effective go to move in the most. Actually, he has not developed a consistent post game. Dirk switched his game a lot as he got older. I don't see this from Bargnani. He's obviously slower than he was a few years back, it does not help that he lets himself go in the offseason, yet he still tries to play like a small forward.

For him to take a next step as a player, he needs to slow himself down, stop playing like an oversized 3, use his brain more and start working in the post (low post or mid-high post). He has no balance on his shots which results to many shots that fall flat. I just have no confidence in him evolving anymore as a player.

So obviously YES for me.

has he pateaued YES! but i stil think he has 2-3 more years that is hustle and effort can get better bcause it was never a
question of talent ....
force to say when he set his mind to it he is one of the most skilled bigs in the game.. put jv motor in him he would be a star
thats the only reason we are always talking about break out ...and some player figure it out in the later stages of their career

I don't see Bargnani getting any better than he is right now, it has always been my opinion that he is one of the most over rated players to ever play for the team.

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ab7 wrote:

has he pateaued YES! but i stil think he has 2-3 more years that is hustle and effort can get better bcause it was never a
question of talent ....
force to say when he set his mind to it he is one of the most skilled bigs in the game.. put jv motor in him he would be a star
thats the only reason we are always talking about break out ...and some player figure it out in the later stages of their career

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that's not plateau-ing....

if casey can get him to play hard, we can see a better bargs.

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torch19 wrote:

I don't like how Bargnani, up to this day, tries to play like a small forward. Simple pump fake -> straight line drives. He has not learned how to play angles, has not developed an effective go to move in the most. Actually, he has not developed a consistent post game. Dirk switched his game a lot as he got older. I don't see this from Bargnani. He's obviously slower than he was a few years back, it does not help that he lets himself go in the offseason, yet he still tries to play like a small forward.

For him to take a next step as a player, he needs to slow himself down, stop playing like an oversized 3, use his brain more and start working in the post (low post or mid-high post). He has no balance on his shots which results to many shots that fall flat. I just have no confidence in him evolving anymore as a player.

So obviously YES for me.

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+1000

I've always been a huge supporter of Bargnani because of his "potential". I agree that for a player as smart as he is, he doesn't seem to think the game through. I cant say how much I hate that stupid pump fake move, take 2 steps and then shoot. He did that atleast a handful of times last game where, he pump faked on a WIDE open shot, only to drive, and pull up for the jumper with hands in his face. I also agree with Soft Euro about the development abilities of the coaching staff. I know a couple of them get subbed in and out ( Scott Roth & Jonny Davis) but I believe Eric Hughes & Micah Nori are long-time holdovers and from what I know seem to work on the player development side. I think an overhaul in long over due in this area.