Trade Jose at the height of his value

umm i can think of one with goran dragic resigining with the suns. Im sure theres probably more, not sure if we should rly even consider something like that rly.

as far as im concerned, if jose wants to stay for something reasonable, he can stay. Sure if some awesome trade comes along than i get it, and i also get it if a team wants to pay him ( and heres were trading him makes sense, the way he's playing he can probably get a pretty damn good contract..) that he leaves. If we retire a player anytime in the near future better be him.

It will be interesting to see how this team with Jose as starting PG and Bargnani OUT looks against really good team in San Antonio, if they can win it, then I start to think that we don't need any changes except shipping Bargs to pick or something like that...

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raptors98 wrote:

Even with our nice 4 game streak, the raps aren't going to do anything this season. If we trade Calderon now, we could get some valuable assets, and maybe still sign him at the end of the season.
Some reasonable deals I like:

Package Jose and Bargnani for Kings first rounder (2013 or 2014), Aaron Brooks and Thompson.
Calderon to Memphis for Wrotten, and Speights
Calderon to Dallas for 2013 first rounder(might be lotto) and jae crowder

I especially like the last deal - especially cause it could definitely happen.
Your potential deals?

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I thought you said reasonable.

Trade him if a good deal comes up, if not, let him walk and embrace the cap space.

No offense to Jose, but the guy is turning 32, with a string of hamstring injuries fairly close behind him. I just dont see him lasting a season being the starter, playing 35-40mins a game, trying to keep up with Demar, Ross, JV and Ed's young legs. I'd rather get a young backup guard who can run around and chase opposing guards.

That's a good point planetmars. He's been the consummate professional, but why would he show us loyalty as if we shown him a lot of loyalty in the past 6 years?

I've been thinking about this for awhile now. Lowry, obviously, is a good point guard. If he isn't so 'bull-headed', he could become a great one. But whether he is the right guy for this team right now is hard for me to say. If we were looking at this down the road, as in if we traded for Lowry after Ross and JV had 2 years of experience, there would be no question at all for me that he's the right guy.

Thing is, Jose Calderon stands the best chance of helping this young team develop right now. That should be clear to everyone over the past 2 weeks. I think Lowry is the type of point guard this team will need down the road. It's clear that Colangelo felt the same way -- he thought we had what it took to be a playoff team with Lowry. What he offered for Lowry makes that crystal clear. But he was wrong, we're not a playoff team and we're probably a couple years away from being a team where people say "these 6-7 teams will make the playoffs while the final spot up-for-grabs between ABC teams". Right now we aren't even in that ABC group.

Here's a few questions to ponder, my answers in brackets:

- Who would net more in a trade, a healthy Kyle Lowry or an expiring Jose Calderon? (Lowry)
- How many years away are we from being contenders? (at least 2, I'm thinking 2014-2015 season at the earliest)
- Which of the two point guards benefits our young players the most? (Calderon)
- Do you think we will be able to afford Kyle Lowry as the starting point guard by 2015 while still being able to pay for DeRozan, Ross, JV, and Davis, and have a solid bench? (Maybe.. will he be looking for Calderon-like money?)

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ebrian wrote:

That's a good point planetmars. He's been the consummate professional, but why would he show us loyalty as if we shown him a lot of loyalty in the past 6 years?

I've been thinking about this for awhile now. Lowry, obviously, is a good point guard. If he isn't so 'bull-headed', he could become a great one. But whether he is the right guy for this team right now is hard for me to say. If we were looking at this down the road, as in if we traded for Lowry after Ross and JV had 2 years of experience, there would be no question at all for me that he's the right guy.

Thing is, Jose Calderon stands the best chance of helping this young team develop right now. That should be clear to everyone over the past 2 weeks. I think Lowry is the type of point guard this team will need down the road. It's clear that Colangelo felt the same way -- he thought we had what it took to be a playoff team with Lowry. What he offered for Lowry makes that crystal clear. But he was wrong, we're not a playoff team and we're probably a couple years away from being a team where people say "these 6-7 teams will make the playoffs while the final spot up-for-grabs between ABC teams". Right now we aren't even in that ABC group.

Here's a few questions to ponder, my answers in brackets:

- Who would net more in a trade, a healthy Kyle Lowry or an expiring Jose Calderon? (Lowry)
- How many years away are we from being contenders? (at least 2, I'm thinking 2014-2015 season at the earliest)
- Which of the two point guards benefits our young players the most? (Calderon)
- Do you think we will be able to afford Kyle Lowry as the starting point guard by 2015 while still being able to pay for DeRozan, Ross, JV, and Davis, and have a solid bench? (Maybe.. will he be looking for Calderon-like money?)

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Those are interesting questions.

I would add two more:

- Who is guaranteed to be a Raptor next year? (Lowry)
- Does Jose even want to remain in Toronto? (I don't know)

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Matt52 wrote:

Those are interesting questions.

I would add two more:

- Who is guaranteed to be a Raptor next year? (Lowry)
- Does Jose even want to remain in Toronto? (I don't know)

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I think with a rebuilding team, what matters more is if Lowry is guaranteed to be a Raptor when it counts, 2 years from now. I know that the winning streak has changed the "blow it up!" tone of this board, but to me nothing has really changed. So far we've won 1 more game that I thought we would. If Lowry is traded, I think Jose would remain. Why wouldn't he? You give the guy the keys to the car, he's going to take it. He loves Toronto, he has never really outwardly demanded a trade. He's a pro in every sense of the word.

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ebrian wrote:

I think with a rebuilding team, what matters more is if Lowry is guaranteed to be a Raptor when it counts, 2 years from now. I know that the winning streak has changed the "blow it up!" tone of this board, but to me nothing has really changed. So far we've won 1 more game that I thought we would. If Lowry is traded, I think Jose would remain. Why wouldn't he? You give the guy the keys to the car, he's going to take it. He loves Toronto, he has never really outwardly demanded a trade. He's a pro in every sense of the word.

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I am still down for blow it up: trade Bargnani/Kleiza/Jose/possibly Amir for awful contracts/picks and play the youth.

This is all our own opinions of course but given BC has tried to replace Jose 3 times, he has been on the trade block for nearly 3 years, he has talked about wanting to play to win, he has mentioned playing in a warmer climate, and the amount of money Toronto should be willing to offer is on par with the full MLE, I don't see Jose a Raptor beyond this season.

The same reasons you gave for giving the car to Jose can also be applied to Jose. You give Lowry the keys to the car, he's going to take it especially after how his stops in Memphis and Houston have played out.

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Craiger wrote:

Jose started half the 2007/08 season, he was injured for a good portion of the 2008/09 season (+ Bargnani was forced into the starting line up), Jose started half the 2009/10 season, then the team tanked for the next 2 years. So exactly why is this on Jose?

It shuoldn't be seen as Jose's fault Colangelo put a greater emphasis on Bargnani over the years and the team progressively got worse.

As for his defense, yes he is not a good defender. But I posted the numbers earlier and this team has played good defense with Jose on the floor (they are showing this again this year). The bigger problem on defense has been Bargnani, not Jose

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I am not saying it's not due to the emphasis on trying to make a bargnani-bosh thing wrok. I agree that Bargs has been a huge problem especially this year.

But the debate is whether or not to trade Jose. We have this idea that since he beats out other backups historically (Ford, Jack and Bayless...he has not taken Lowry's spot yet), he deserves to start. Then there is a whole PG controversy. What I am saying is that there should be no controversy, based on the fact that we have never won with him. He has been just another guy (albeit a great pro) who has passed through the organization without making any significant impact on the league whatsoever. We should treat him that way.

Bottom line is, Jose is a lot like the Jameer Nelsons or Mario Chalmers of the world. If you put a good team around him, he will probably be effective as a starter, and if you don't, he is essentially at best a neutral player over the course of his career and will give as good as he gets but that's about it.

if you can trade him to a team like the Lakers or Dallas for a solid player who can contribute we will be better off.

I also want to point out that the win total significantly drops off when Jose replaced TJ as the Starter...ie there is a direct correlation between the time he began to start and our downfall over the past few years

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BallaBalla wrote:

I am not saying it's not due to the emphasis on trying to make a bargnani-bosh thing wrok. I agree that Bargs has been a huge problem especially this year.

But the debate is whether or not to trade Jose. We have this idea that since he beats out other backups historically (Ford, Jack and Bayless...he has not taken Lowry's spot yet), he deserves to start. Then there is a whole PG controversy. What I am saying is that there should be no controversy, based on the fact that we have never won with him. He has been just another guy (albeit a great pro) who has passed through the organization without making any significant impact on the league whatsoever. We should treat him that way.

Bottom line is, Jose is a lot like the Jameer Nelsons or Mario Chalmers of the world. If you put a good team around him, he will probably be effective as a starter, and if you don't, he is essentially at best a neutral player over the course of his career and will give as good as he gets but that's about it.

if you can trade him to a team like the Lakers or Dallas for a solid player who can contribute we will be better off.

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There is a controversy so its really to late to claim there shouldn't be. But to the bold, the correlation between Jose being on the team and the team not winning is so incredibly low its not even worth arguing. The low emphasis this team has had on him and his role on this team has always made him an under utilized player. Mistakenly so at that. The question should be "can or will this team be able to win with Jose", not "we haven't won with him so he should be traded". (and just to point out saying Jose is like the Nelsons or Chalmers of the league clearly points out that the team therefore can win with him)

I'm not against trading Jose, but I think as someone said before it has to be for the right package. Trading him is not a necessity and its not essential. Its an option. Thats all.

i think you're going to need Calderon to move Bargs. it'd be kinda cool if he went somewhere, won a title, and then came back to finish his career a raptor.

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BallaBalla wrote:

I also want to point out that the win total significantly drops off when Jose replaced TJ as the Starter...ie there is a direct correlation between the time he began to start and our downfall over the past few years

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in 2007/08 Toronto played .500 ball exactly.

The team was 28 and 28 with Jose as a starter, and 13 and 13 with TJ as a starter. Where's the correlation? Or do you mean the NEXT season when Colangelo fired Smitch promoted Triano, moved Bargnani into a heavier roll, traded for O'Neal and then Marion, had no back up PG and the team played 5-9 ( 35% winning) without Jose, and 28 - 40 (41%) with him? That correlation?

With all due respect to Lowry, it doesn't apopear we'll win with him either. Perhaps the problem is the make up of the rest of the team (and although many will make faces...not only Bargs!)?

Sorry...'appear'

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Matt52 wrote:

I am still down for blow it up: trade Bargnani/Kleiza/Jose/possibly Amir for awful contracts/picks and play the youth.

This is all our own opinions of course but given BC has tried to replace Jose 3 times, he has been on the trade block for nearly 3 years, he has talked about wanting to play to win, he has mentioned playing in a warmer climate, and the amount of money Toronto should be willing to offer is on par with the full MLE, I don't see Jose a Raptor beyond this season.

The same reasons you gave for giving the car to Jose can also be applied to Jose. You give Lowry the keys to the car, he's going to take it especially after how his stops in Memphis and Houston have played out.

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That's true. I assume you made a typo there on the car thing.

For me it's about timing. I think it should be open season on every non-rookie player on this team. I don't see a huge benefit to having a Lowry-like player on this team right now. He might help us win a bit more but he'll also slow down the development of our young guys. Actually I'll take that back.. in relation to Calderon, he'd slow them down but it's not like he's making them suck -- he's very capable passer. Actually I'll even take that back. My biggest and only issue with Lowry is that he likes to shoot and isn't a good shooter. He's shooting 40% this year which is bad but on par with the last 4 years of his career. I don't see that number going up a whole lot in the future. He's already in his 7th year as a pro. If Bargs' numbers have dropped and he needs to be traded, why would people think Lowry will become a better shooter?

For the bigger picture, we can get so much more in return for Lowry than we can for Calderon. Bargnani+Calderon is just a rental of one and really, who wants Bargnani at this stage? Only a handful a teams are going to be interested in that. Bargnani+Lowry on the other hand, is a much more attractive package.

I'm not sure what you do with Jose but I think that if you're going to trade the league leader in triple doubles and a guy who is once again in the top 5 assist to turnover ratio, you want something good back, and I don't think there are any teams willing to send something good back for a Jose Calderon Rental. So I say extend him and trade Lowry, who can likely bring more back. I also wonder if a Lowry Bargs deal would not net more than a Calderon Bargs deal. Regardeless, Jose has been one of the few bright spots in his dedication and professionalism during his tenure and I actually wouldn't be adverse to giving him a little bit of extra coin as a reward. The Raptors should try to treat their players well, maybe it will make it easier to attract free agents.

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hateslosing wrote:

I'm not sure what you do with Jose but I think that if you're going to trade the league leader in triple doubles and a guy who is once again in the top 5 assist to turnover ratio, you want something good back, and I don't think there are any teams willing to send something good back for a Jose Calderon Rental. So I say extend him and trade Lowry, who can likely bring more back. I also wonder if a Lowry Bargs deal would not net more than a Calderon Bargs deal. Regardeless, Jose has been one of the few bright spots in his dedication and professionalism during his tenure and I actually wouldn't be adverse to giving him a little bit of extra coin as a reward. The Raptors should try to treat their players well, maybe it will make it easier to attract free agents.

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Hahaha ... Jose DOES lead the league in Triple Doubles this year!! Thats amazing!! And weird.

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joey_hesketh wrote:

Hahaha ... Jose DOES lead the league in Triple Doubles this year!! Thats amazing!! And weird.

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Jose for MVP!

the problem with Lowry is he has limited court vision..his passing ability isnt any were near Jose's..IF he was to learn to play more team ball he'd be just fine. he also needs to stop gambling on D so much.

its funny though with Jose he doesnt take his shots very often & were always hearing Jose needs to look for his shot more.. then Lowry is a hero Ball chucker for taking shots.. some people will never be happy.. too bad we cant just transplant Jose's playmaking ability into Lowry.