Chisholm sums up reality of any Rudy Gay deal

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Nilanka wrote:

Based on this logic, wouldn't it make sense for Nash's numbers to be better in LA compared to his previous years in Phoenix? He has much better players in Kobe, Gasol, Howard, etc. when compared to Dudley, Gortat, Frye, etc.

Small sample size, but you get my point. Sometimes, it comes down to a team utilizing a player differently that can make a world of difference. Gay going from a 3rd option to a 1st option has that potential. Just look at Harden, and to a lesser extent, Mayo (another player I wish we were in the running for last summer).

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It kind of works in reverse with Nash, he is the one that makes poor players better. Ask Staudamire in NY.


What is your basis for thinking Gay will be a better player with us? Do we have 16.7 shots to give him, is lowry going to pass more and shoot less, will derozan take the cut, I honestly do not see why Memphis is a poor place for him and why Toronto is better.


If he is OUR number one option, and is not happy with his 16.7 shots in memphis, at .410% shooting, we are going to lose a lot of games.

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joey_hesketh wrote:

I'm not sure why you keep saying this; Rudy Gay has the highest Usage Rate on the Memphis Grizzlies according to Hoopsdata:

Rudy Gay - 25.84%

Zach Randolph - 22.74%
Mike Conley - 20.13%
Marc Gasol - 18.03%

He is absolutely their first option. Even their FGA Per Game reflects this:

Rudy Gay - 16.6 FGA per game

Zach Randolph - 13.9 FGA per game
Mike Conley - 11.5 FGA per game
Marc Gasol - 10.6 FGA per game

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+1

I'm thinking the same thing. Rudy Gay is the #1 option for Memphis. He takes the most shots for that team. He leads them in scoring. Yet posters on here keep saying he's the 3rd option. This is simply not true.

I think they want him to be the 3rd option (or share touches with 2 other players) considering his offensive efficency, and he probably is not happy with that adjustment.

A player like Gay can score anytime he wants, the question is, does he know what a high percentage shot is. Is he getting his looks at the expense of the team? (from the trade reasoning on the memphis side, that could be a possiblity)

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special1 wrote:

Fair enough... and after Gay leaves us after 2 years.....what then??

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Cap space?

If thats going to be the fear everytime a player is acquired then whats the point in acquiring players? Even if you acquire Lebron at his peak with 10 years left on his contract, how would you know he wont request a trade 2 years later? When the Raps acquired Lowry, why werent they concerned whats going to happen when his contract expires in 2 years?

Its always going to be a question, but its something that you cant control. What the organization can control is to make the team better to at least have a fighting chance to re-sign their players.

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joey_hesketh wrote:

Golden, I applaud the effort; but at some point you have to accept the fact that around here, people don't change their minds. Haha

Both sides have made commendable arguments, but at the end of the day, its all opinion.
And while I agree with yours, that Rudy Gay is no saviour, I have to give it up to the other side and accept that having him on the team wouldn't be a bad thing either. However, if we had to give up Demar to get him, then that to me is BAD and counter productive for the team.

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Yeah. I had no idea there were so many openly Gay fans on this forum. lol.

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Nilanka wrote:

You could say that about every player. "What if they leave one day?"

Win some games, and sell them a new contract.

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You mean players who just signed 4 year contracts (cough - demar)?? You just dont get it Nilanka. This is Toronto.....we're not exactly LA or NY or Miami (not close to being a go-to destination). We need to keep and reward players who actually WANT to be here.

What makes you think we're going to win more with Gay instead of Demar and who else we may have to give up for Rudy?? Rudy Gay is NOT lebron or Kobe or even Carmelo. Therefore you cant guarantee that we will be better with him. This is all just opinion. BUT you cannot ignore the Truth. There is a good chance that NO MATTER WHAT WE OFFER RUDY - We could easily see him walk away in 2 years just like Bosh did. He has no loyalty to the Raptors.

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golden wrote:

Yeah. I had no idea there were so many openly Gay fans on this forum. lol.

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When Gay makes this team better, no doubt you will be one of the first ones to come out from the closet, i meant "No to Rudy Gay" closet. LOL right back at you.

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golden wrote:

Yeah. I had no idea there were so many openly Gay fans on this forum. lol.

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Rap of the day!!! lmao

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golden wrote:

Yeah. I had no idea there were so many openly Gay fans on this forum. lol.

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It was hard to comeout of the closet, during the euro Raptor success, but these days most Gay fans are open. ;)

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TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote:

When Gay makes this team better, no doubt you will be one of the first ones to come out from the closet, i meant "No to Rudy Gay" closet. LOL right back at you.

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Yep, I'll be right there with you Glove. Wearing my Rudy Gay #66 jersey in the front row with PRIDE! haha.

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TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote:

When Gay makes this team better, no doubt you will be one of the first ones to come out from the closet, i meant "No to Rudy Gay" closet. LOL right back at you.

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I would rather Marc Gasol than Rudy Gay...... Now there's an example of someone who makes their team better. At least Marc's an all-star. I don't think at 17 million - 19 million Rudy is worth it. UNLESS we get rid of some unnecessary pieces like AB, LK, etc. Obviously this would be a dream come true, but i dont want to give up our core for Rudy. I would though for Marc Gasol.

make it #69!

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special1 wrote:

I would rather Marc Gasol than Rudy Gay...... Now there's an example of someone who makes their team better. At least Marc's an all-star. I don't think at 17 million - 19 million Rudy is worth it. UNLESS we get rid of some unnecessary pieces like AB, LK, etc. Obviously this would be a dream come true, but i dont want to give up our core for Rudy. I would though for Marc Gasol.

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+1. It's interesting that the rise of Memphis coincides with the development of Gasol and maturation of Randolph and yet there are questions as to whether Gay 'fits in' or not. In fact, they made the big leap forward as a team the year Gay was injured.

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special1 wrote:

You mean players who just signed 4 year contracts (cough - demar)?? You just dont get it Nilanka. This is Toronto.....we're not exactly LA or NY or Miami (not close to being a go-to destination). We need to keep and reward players who actually WANT to be here.

What makes you think we're going to win more with Gay instead of Demar and who else we may have to give up for Rudy?? Rudy Gay is NOT lebron or Kobe or even Carmelo. Therefore you cant guarantee that we will be better with him. This is all just opinion. BUT you cannot ignore the Truth. There is a good chance that NO MATTER WHAT WE OFFER RUDY - We could easily see him walk away in 2 years just like Bosh did. He has no loyalty to the Raptors.

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No, it's you who doesn't get it. How many years does Lowry have left on his deal? Should we not have traded for him because we're scared he's anti-Canada?

Maybe we should just build a team full of Canadians (and Matt Bonner) because they "want to be here", lol.

Of course I can't guarantee anything. Nobody can. Can you guarantee we'll ever be a playoff team with DeRozan leading the way? No, you can't.

This is a business. Nobody has any loyalty to the Raptors.

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planetmars wrote:

I'm not sure if anyone has even considered it yet but doesn't Gay kind of remind you of Jermaine O'Neal?

JO was 30 at the time where as Gay is 26 so there is a difference but both had big salaries. JO was a perennial all-star but then got injured and was never the same. Gay has a track record of being on the shelf and has been considered a perennial all-star (it's much tougher to make it on the all-star team in the West). He has also regressed from previous years. JO was brought in to please Bosh. You could say Gay could be doing the same for Lowry. The guy that was just drafted (Bargnani) plays the same position as JO. Gay plays a similar position to DeMar who just came off his rookie contract.

To get JO, the Raptors had to give away a first rounder (who ended up becoming Hibbert). To get Gay the Raptors may need to give up a previously drafted first rounder (Davis/Ross, who may end up becoming all-stars).

If Bryan wasn't our GM I would be all over a Gay trade - but because he is I am scared sh!tless.

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Except for Gay's shoulder injury, he has missed 10 games in his career. 10 games total. He has missed 1 game in the last 1.5 seasons.

JO? C'mon. The only similarity is big contracts.... and JO's was actually $5M more per season.

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joey_hesketh wrote:

I'm not sure why you keep saying this; Rudy Gay has the highest Usage Rate on the Memphis Grizzlies according to Hoopsdata:

Rudy Gay - 25.84%

Zach Randolph - 22.74%
Mike Conley - 20.13%
Marc Gasol - 18.03%

He is absolutely their first option. Even their FGA Per Game reflects this:

Rudy Gay - 16.6 FGA per game

Zach Randolph - 13.9 FGA per game
Mike Conley - 11.5 FGA per game
Marc Gasol - 10.6 FGA per game

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Jared Cunningham and Chris Kaman have a higher usage rate than Dirk Nowitzski, yet there's no denying who Dallas' 1st option is.

Metta World Peace averages more FGA than Gasol, Howard and Nash. Is he their 2nd option?

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TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote:

I think what Hollinger forgot to mention in his analysis is that Gay has to play alongside 2 big men who clog the paint most of the time. Add a PG in Conley who makes a living off the dribble penetration and the pick and pop and Allen who has zero perimeter shooting. Gay's only way to make points is to take perimeter shots, and the chances of making those are obviously less than when operating closer to the basket.

With the Raptors, Gay will have more shots available to him, in a wider range. From what i've seen, he handles the ball real well, almost 3asts per game is pretty good for a forward. Even if he has the ball, you know he will look to pass to the open man and not always throw up a shot.

Defensively, i think he's pretty good. 99 DRting is up there. Lebron is 103.

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Nilanka wrote:

+1

We can't simply look at his stats in a vacuum and say, "he's not much better than what we've got". We have to look at his skill set, and the circumstances surrounding his career to see Gay's value in Toronto.

Gay's game is so extremely well-rounded. He may not excel in any one category, but there are very few holes in his game. He can shoot, he can pass, he can drive, he can defend, he can rebound, etc. A player of his talent-level doesn't come by often.

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Nilanka wrote:

+1 again. You're on a roll today, Glove ;)

The only thing I might disagree with is the overlapping part. Neither DeRozan or Gay are legitimate 3-point threats. In my ideal wing rotation, one of my starters is a bomber. From this perspective, I think Ross is a better compliment to Gay than DeRozan.

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TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote:

We are in partial agreement, hehe

In this situation, unfortunately, it seems like in order to get talent, you have to surrender talent. If BC can pull of a Kupchak and acquire Gay like how Kupchak acquired Gasol for scrubs, then by all means! Unfortunately, I dont think (i may be wrong, maybe Gay loves the snow) Toronto is a top-of-the-list destination for Gay like LA was for Gasol, meaning the Lakers had leverage that time and Toronto, at current, does not. So if it means giving up Demar to get Gay, i would have to say yes, only because there is still a fallback with Ross taking over Demar's spot. Ross is already showing that he can play the way Demar is playing, plus a 3 point stroke and much more hustle and effort. If the Raps did not have Ross, i would think twice about giving up Demar for Gay because of the financial implications, but because they have Ross, i wouldnt think twice.

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TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote:

hahahaha RR poster of the day!!

I guess you'll +1 my post before this one then coz i just said i'd take Ross over Demar! hahaha

I just mentioned the Demar-Gay tandem because if the Raps do pull-off the Claderon+Davis+pick for Gay trade then most likely DD and Gay will be playing heavy minutes together. But pure one on one comparison, both of them are not threats, but id rather leave Demar on the 3pt line than Gay.

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You guys are on a roll today.

I am in agreement with you both.

He is overpaid, no doubt, but we are not talking about DeSanga Diop here.

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special1 wrote:

I would rather Marc Gasol than Rudy Gay...... Now there's an example of someone who makes their team better. At least Marc's an all-star. I don't think at 17 million - 19 million Rudy is worth it. UNLESS we get rid of some unnecessary pieces like AB, LK, etc. Obviously this would be a dream come true, but i dont want to give up our core for Rudy. I would though for Marc Gasol.

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Dude im right there with you. But what i think you and golden are a bit unclear with is that i am not advocating for acquiring Rudy Gay because i want the Raptors to target Rudy Gay, but right now, with what we are getting from the media, Rudy Gay is by far the most attainable prospect there is for the Raptors. If i had a choice, i wouldnt get Gay, id get Gasol, Lebron, Kobe, Durant. Answer me this, is there any other top level talent, that is better than any Raptor player, that is currently in the market, that their home team is willing to trade, other than Gay??

I guess the only other argument is to not acquire anybody, wait for calderon's contract to expire, keep Bargnani etc etc. But if a good deal comes to nab Gay, then why not, right? The only other prospect is Josh Smith, next year, and i dont see the Raps getting him unless they overpay.

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TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote:

I disagree. I think BC should be aggressive in getting this trade done, but not at the expense of giving too much in return. Im not sure if giving up too much is what you meant by "aggressive", if it is, then i agree with you. I think BC should always be aggressive in pursuing trades that can benefit the team.

Im not sure where people are getting "mediocre" when describing Gay's defense. Memphis was the 8th best defensive team 2 years ago, 5th best last year and #1 this year. Gay plays 37 mins a game, surely he's a big contributor to Memphis' defense since he plays heavy minutes. And his individual DRating is 105, 102 and 99 respectively. compared to lebron who was 102,97 and 103, who plays the same position and has been considered numerous times for DPOY.

This is actually my selling point with Gay, the ability to handle the ball in the crucial seconds of the game, something that the Raptors have been lacking for quite sometime, and which i think is a skill highly underrated and undervalued. You need a guy who can do this.

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Awful defense. Absolutely pitiful.

Keep Lowry, Ross, JV and I am fine with giving up whoever.

I think a 3 man rotation of Fields, Gay, and Ross would be stellar and having AA as a 4th would be nice insurance.

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Nilanka wrote:

No, it's you who doesn't get it. How many years does Lowry have left on his deal? Should we not have traded for him because we're scared he's anti-Canada?

Maybe we should just build a team full of Canadians (and Matt Bonner) because they "want to be here", lol.

Of course I can't guarantee anything. Nobody can. Can you guarantee we'll ever be a playoff team with DeRozan leading the way? No, you can't.

This is a business. Nobody has any loyalty to the Raptors.

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Right...... i'm pretty sure if we give Lowry the keys and a nice contract Lowry (whom is very close with Alvin Williams) MAY choose to stay. This is a risk (we knew that coming in). But who did we give up for Lowry?? Your boy Gary Forbes and a draft pick..... Who do you want to give up for Rudy??? Be honest - i wont check the thread but i recall Jose, DD, ED + 2nd rounder if we had to...... thats too much for not even an all-star. YES - YOU DONT GET IT AT ALL!!