Bargnani for... Boozer?!?!

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Matt52 wrote:

Listen, I'm basing all my arguments on financial numbers, CBA rules, statistics (both simple and advanced), and other teams successes with Boozer as a major part of it. I am more than willing to agree to disagree. But I've yet to see any argument based on something other than someone's opinion that validates the notion that trading for Bargnani for Boozer is a bad move for the Raptors franchise. It does not add up in the accounting books or on the court (production and cost of Bargnani/full MLE vs. Boozer/mini-MLE). I would like to see something based on more than unsubstantiated opinions or views.

Regarding the bold, I think it is pretty obvious the team needs to move on from Bargnani. When you have one of the worst contracts in the league and amnestying him does nothing to help you, you have to recognize you are not going to get an ideal situation. Much like Gay's $17M contract, if Gay was paid $12M there would have been very little uproar over his contact. If Boozer was paid $10M like David West (who Boozer is actually one year younger than) or even $11M, I don't think there would be any issue with this trade. The years are the same.

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You might be right on that, but I also still think, as it seems you do, that it is not a great option in terms of the players they could try to add, just that it's better than keeping Bargs. So I will keep hoping that they do not want to take this deal. Frankly, though I see the need to be rid of Bargs, I also don't mind the franchise waiting if they don't like what offers they have. I do think a Boozer deal would still be there in the summer(and maybe then they can get a 2014 1st rder thrown in??) , as will a Gasol deal maybe if they prefer that(which doesn't seem likely in season), if they want to go that route. Not sure if there's a big market for Boozer. Don't remember seeing him connected to another team.

I just don't see it as a move that needs to be made now at all...even if it ends up being what they do...With the Bulls, this scenario is probably the only one where the Raps are dealing from a position of strength, so they should be patient if they don't think it's the best trade.
Do you go for what's available now or do you maintain your preferred targets and find a way to acquire them? I think this is the question it comes down too....and I'd go the latter route if Boozer is what's available now...keep trying to get a different deal and only take this one if you feel you have no choice in the end....with the offseason being the end.

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white men can't jump wrote:

I definitely agree with you that it's stupid to amnesty him.

And on the other stuff...Boozer could be a good chip...but also, as is, only JV, Demar and Ross figure to be signed at that time, which is the 19 million I assume??...So really, that only matters if BC considers it a bonus over, say trading for Pau in the summer (I don't know, just throwing shit out there) which would stagger the money coming off, but create a much different situation (probably a worse one for being FA players).

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JV, DeMar, and Ross are signed for 2015-16 for a combined $19M.

Boozer's last season on the books for Toronto would be 2014-15. Boozer is either a trade chip in February 2015 or cap space in July.

I don't think trading for Pau does much for Toronto in terms of free agency because in 2014 Raps are still just $8M below cap without a starting PG. However, when it comes to trading where cap holds don't impact salary cap space for the purpose of satisfying CBA requirements, Gasol would be an advantage. I would prefer Gasol over Boozer but think Gasol will be much more difficult to acquire due to current Raptor cap situation, Laker situation, and Raptor trade assets.

I've actually talked myself in to Boozer for Bargnani tonight if it is the only option. But hopefully Colangelo can squeeze out a pick due to Chicago's desperation to avoid luxury tax should this be the only opportunity for Toronto to move Bargnani.

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Matt52 wrote:

JV, DeMar, and Ross are signed for 2015-16 for a combined $19M.

Boozer's last season on the books for Toronto would be 2014-15. Boozer is either a trade chip in February 2015 or cap space in July.

I don't think trading for Pau does much for Toronto in terms of free agency because in 2014 Raps are still just $8M below cap without a starting PG. However, when it comes to trading where cap holds don't impact salary cap space for the purpose of satisfying CBA requirements, Gasol would be an advantage. I would prefer Gasol over Boozer but think Gasol will be much more difficult to acquire due to current Raptor cap situation, Laker situation, and Raptor trade assets.

I've actually talked myself in to Boozer for Bargnani tonight if it is the only option. But hopefully Colangelo can squeeze out a pick due to Chicago's desperation to avoid luxury tax should this be the only opportunity for Toronto to move Bargnani.

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I've talked myself into it too.

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Matt52 wrote:

I've actually talked myself in to Boozer for Bargnani tonight if it is the only option. But hopefully Colangelo can squeeze out a pick due to Chicago's desperation to avoid luxury tax should this be the only opportunity for Toronto to move Bargnani.

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I'm stilll hoping if it's an in-season move, it's Ilyasova or bust....Boozer and Gasol are good targets for the summer. And given UTH or ATL wouldn't want Bargs and it would be hard to make another deal work, the offseason and a sign and trade would also probably be the time to pursue Millsap (Who is up there with Ilyasova as my top 2 choices in no particular order...depending on how big a role they want the player to fill) or Smith (who I don't want at all, just subjectively).

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white men can't jump wrote:

You might be right on that, but I also still think, as it seems you do, that it is not a great option in terms of the players they could try to add, just that it's better than keeping Bargs. So I will keep hoping that they do not want to take this deal. Frankly, though I see the need to be rid of Bargs, I also don't mind the franchise waiting if they don't like what offers they have. I do think a Boozer deal would still be there in the summer(and maybe then they can get a 2014 1st rder thrown in??) , as will a Gasol deal maybe if they prefer that(which doesn't seem likely in season), if they want to go that route. Not sure if there's a big market for Boozer. Don't remember seeing him connected to another team.

I just don't see it as a move that needs to be made now at all...even if it ends up being what they do...With the Bulls, this scenario is probably the only one where the Raps are dealing from a position of strength, so they should be patient if they don't think it's the best trade.
Do you go for what's available now or do you maintain your preferred targets and find a way to acquire them? I think this is the question it comes down too....and I'd go the latter route if Boozer is what's available now...keep trying to get a different deal and only take this one if you feel you have no choice in the end.

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I don't think Chicago will ever be as desperate to unload him as they are going to be in the next 7 days due to the CBA rules that luxury tax/yearly payroll is determined by the total of contracts on books as of last day of regular season game. That means February 21st is the last day to shed contracts. If you can get a 1st rd pick out of the Bulls, do it.

Considering the Raps are 17-13 in last 30 (12-11 without Gay), I think adding Boozer to the mix/subtracting Bargnani makes 19-10 over last 29 semi reasonable. I'd like to see the trade done sooner than later considering the ramifications of Toronto making the playoffs this season.

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white men can't jump wrote:

I'm stilll hoping if it's an in-season move, it's Ilyasova or bust....Boozer and Gasol are good targets for the summer. And given UTH or ATL wouldn't want Bargs and it would be hard to make another deal work, the offseason and a sign and trade would also probably be the time to pursue Millsap (Who is up there with Ilyasova as my top 2 choices in no particular order...depending on how big a role they want the player to fill) or Smith (who I don't want at all, just subjectively).

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Ilyasova is my preferred trade acquisition as well but as mentioned in previous reply, if Boozer only option, I'd take it. Playoffs for this season seem realistic given Raps are 17-13 in previous 30 games (with 3 blown 20-point leads) and 19-10 over final 29 gets them 40 wins.

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Matt52 wrote:

I don't think Chicago will ever be as desperate to unload him as they are going to be in the next 7 days due to the CBA rules that luxury tax/yearly payroll is determined by the total of contracts on books as of last day of regular season game. That means February 21st is the last day to shed contracts. If you can get a 1st rd pick out of the Bulls, do it.

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Yeah, I agree with that, I was just saying that they may be desperate now, but they will still be in the summer, right? With Gibson's extension kicking in and having to round out the roster even with minimum contracts, they'lll have a hard time improving their situation...I don't know. It's a tough call. I don't know how much I value a pick for this year. And I don't know if maybe I'd value a 2014 pick more if it can be squeezed out of them in the offseason. Maybe ask for it now. IF they give in, I might take it.
*It's extra good to get that now over the summer if that's the best deal...You get Boozer, definitely improve playoff chances. You keep the pick from the Lowry trade this year. You go into next year a playoff team, with a 2014 pick as well.

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Matt52 wrote:

Ilyasova is my preferred trade acquisition as well but as mentioned in previous reply, if Boozer only option, I'd take it. Playoffs for this season seem realistic given Raps are 17-13 in previous 30 games (with 3 blown 20-point leads) and 19-10 over final 29 gets them 40 wins.

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I prefer 2 big men over Boozer. First is Emeka Okafor. Defensively, I think that he rebounds and blocks well for a centre. He's earning 13.4 million and 2 years left. Also, this allows Amir to continue at the 4. There's no way we can roll with JV if the team is serious about the playoff push. My next choice would be Kris Humphries at 12Mil with 2 years left. He's a big body that rebounds. His defense is still better than Boozers. My concern with Boozer besides money is that he'll also need touches. Both Okafor and Humps won't need it as much. Ilyasova is a pipe dream but if Dalembert and Ilyasova is offered for Bargs, I'd jump on that ASAP!

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Balls of Steel wrote:

I prefer 2 big men over Boozer. First is Emeka Okafor. Defensively, I think that he rebounds and blocks well for a centre. He's earning 13.4 million and 2 years left. Also, this allows Amir to continue at the 4. There's no way we can roll with JV if the team is serious about the playoff push. My next choice would be Kris Humphries at 12Mil with 2 years left. He's a big body that rebounds. His defense is still better than Boozers. My concern with Boozer besides money is that he'll also need touches. Both Okafor and Humps won't need it as much. Ilyasova is a pipe dream but if Dalembert and Ilyasova is offered for Bargs, I'd jump on that ASAP!

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To your point about Boozer needing touches, that's EXACTLY what this team needs. Any low post presence... Defensively, we seemed to have improved significantly since the deal made, and we are starting to get exposed on the inside offensively, with no true paint scorer. All are coming from the perimeter. Humphries AND Okafor don't address any of our current issues.

Speaking about JV, JV is already battle tested, if things aren't going right, I actually feel fairly confident in rolling Gray out there, because he fits better in a half-court situation at this point (playoffs is a MUCH slower, half-court played game), and because JV still hasn't developed his low post game being a rookie.

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Matt52 wrote:

lol - amnesty him? Write him a cheque for $23M (minus whatever a team bids) to walk away and watch a team pick him up returning NOTHING to Toronto? lol - really? Then once he is gone, the Raps are still $8M over the cap and still limited to the MLE or a sign and trade with one less asset now (well, no less assets that matter). Where are the Raptors going to not only replace but increase Bargnani's scoring and more than double his rebounding on $5M per season?

Obviously there is no convincing you. I just broke it down and you refuse to accept it or think I am full of shit - which is certainly a semi-valid opinion.

Personally I think you are delusional of Bargnani's value and contribution to winning. I also think you are ignorant to a player due to his contract despite the fact he would immediately become one of the top 3 or 4 players on the Raptors and has been a major part of playoff teams every year since 2005-2006 and a part of teams who finished the regular season at .500 or better every season since 2004-2005.

The Raptors are already over the salary cap and luxury tax next season and over the cap in 2014-2015. Boozer's contract would be coming off the books (and possibly a trade chip) at the same time as Gay is due for a new contract and the Raptors have just $19M on the books for 2015-16 (DD, JV, TR).

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*I* never said amnesty him. I just said don't trade him for Boozer. In your frustration over your inability to convince me that Boozer is worth 'just getting rid of Bargs', you're not reading very carefully, or are willfully ignoring my point. And yes, you've presented a lot of info to suggest why Boozer vs. Bargs is a Boozer win. That's not the point here.

Are you looking to replace Bargnani's production (which you continue to argue is non-existent) or are you looking to improve the team? Boozer in brings short-term gain only, contract notwithstanding, which I argue will be a negative longer term regardless of cap impact.

I think you're just in a hurry to get rid of Bargs. That's a bad objective, IMO, because my argument is that, while he's eating $10M in salary for the rest of the year, he's NOT having any other significant negative impact on the team, the development of younger players, etc. You can continue to argue that Boozer won't have any other negative impact, either, and that's where, yes, we will agree to disagree.

Again, to be clear on MY perpsective on this for the last time: Move Bargnani. But move him for something that doesn't have massive potential to make this team worse over the long haul, not better.

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jimmie wrote:

*I* never said amnesty him. I just said don't trade him for Boozer. In your frustration over your inability to convince me that Boozer is worth 'just getting rid of Bargs', you're not reading very carefully, or are willfully ignoring my point. And yes, you've presented a lot of info to suggest why Boozer vs. Bargs is a Boozer win. That's not the point here.

Are you looking to replace Bargnani's production (which you continue to argue is non-existent) or are you looking to improve the team? Boozer in brings short-term gain only, contract notwithstanding, which I argue will be a negative longer term regardless of cap impact.

I think you're just in a hurry to get rid of Bargs. That's a bad objective, IMO, because my argument is that, while he's eating $10M in salary for the rest of the year, he's NOT having any other significant negative impact on the team, the development of younger players, etc. You can continue to argue that Boozer won't have any other negative impact, either, and that's where, yes, we will agree to disagree.

Again, to be clear on MY perpsective on this for the last time: Move Bargnani. But move him for something that doesn't have massive potential to make this team worse over the long haul, not better.

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How does this move make us so bad in the long haul?

You know its 7 days away trade deadline I thought for sure there would be some moves happening right now. Its been surprisingly quiet.

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Chr1s1anL wrote:

How does this move make us so bad in the long haul?

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Well, I think Boozer (the player, v.s the dollars) is not very good, and a poor fit for this team as (it seems to be being) built.

- He will take floor time away for Valanciunas. This one is an obvious drawback.
- He will take floor time away from Amir. This one depends on your appraisal of Amir, but I've said before I think he's mjore than adequate as a starting 4, and a better fit for this team.
- He will require (and likely desire) significant touches to be productive at the offensive end. That means effort making his need for the ball fit with Gay, Lowry, and Derozan, who are clearly seen as more long-term pieces. It would mean a shift in their current schemes to a more interior-centric offense. Not that that's a bad thing, but I think it's a bad thing when the player you're moving things around for will not be here in 3 years when the rest of them are expecting to be competing for a championship.
- He is an albatross on defense. He's never been a good defender, and now he's 31, and likely to be difficult to motivate if he gets traded to Toronto.

- Now for the contract. When he's in his final year, at 34 years of age, do you think he's going to be any easier to move than Bargnani? You'd basically be trading one useless, difficult-to-move contract for another. Any discussion of this trade hinges on the ability to maximize that asset. If you can't move him for something -- same as is being discussed with AB now -- and he doesn't significantly improve the team now without hamstringing it after he leaves, then that's bad asset management. And I'm very skeptical of him having any more value in 3 years than Bargs has now.

- None of this is touching on possible chemistry issues. He'd be leaving, against his will, from a team with championship aspirations (once Rose returns) to go to a developing team that he knows he's a gap-filler on. He's been noted throughout his career for being kinda lazy and apathetic. He's never been a "closer" or big-game player, but he might get delusions of grandeur in Toronto. I'm not saying any of these things are guaranteed to happen, but they are a distinct possibility which, when coupled with my other concerns noted above, make me very wary.

Again, I'm evaluating this *solely* on what would be coming to Toronto, not what would be going out. I would never make a desperation deal to move a player unless his presence has a significant negative impact on the rest of the team.

Looks like its still on the table:

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...er-They-Choose

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Rapstor4Life wrote:

You know its 7 days away trade deadline I thought for sure there would be some moves happening right now. Its been surprisingly quiet.

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My expectation is that things will really start moving on the trade front come Monday. Nothing like GMs coming together for the All-Star Weekend to get some further conversation going.

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Raptor_11 wrote:

Looks like its still on the table:

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...er-They-Choose

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ya i just read that article too..it almost reeks of desperation on Chicago's part...especially since its comming out of the chicago tribune...Bulls would need to sweetenthe pot for me to even consider it..hope BC takes the best deal but im not sure this is it

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DoNDaDDa wrote:

ya i just read that article too..it almost reeks of desperation on Chicago's part...especially since its comming out of the chicago tribune...Bulls would need to sweetenthe pot for me to even consider it..hope BC takes the best deal but im not sure this is it

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Especially the deal as is.....Why would we give them JL3??? We'd still have depth issues at PG. I'm not saying it's a dealbreaker, but they clearly want him rather than us offering him, right??

I still am really not keen on this deal. I think it could be the worst deal possible, but I also realize it may be the only one available that makes any kind of sense, even if it's minimal. For me to consider this deal at all, they would absolutely have to throw in a 1st round pick. Otherwise, I don't see why BC should feel any pressure. I still think it's not a huge deal if we miss the playoffs this year. He has already saved his job, and re-energized the fanbase. There's no reason in my mind that a similar deal won't be available in the summer, when Chicago is still likely to pay the tax next year so they will want to make savings. We don't have to take this deal now just to do them a favor (in terms of letting them save money, just so we're a slightly better first round exit this season at best).
*REally, doing this move now is ONLY because it improves our playoff chances this year. Any other move in now or in the summer to get a different PF likely improves our team in the years to come...to me this is more important, and again, if nothing presents itself, the Boozer deal should still be there because apparently no other team wants him.

Say if this trade goes through and all the stars line up and Boozer is motivated and willing to be a team player. How good do you guys think the Raptors could be next season?

1. Miami
2. Indiana
3. Chicago - if they go after Josh Smith and Rose returns healthy .... watch out.
4. New York
5. Brooklyn
6. Toronto?

Maybe we could jump Brooklyn and be around the 5th seed, but I can't see us being top 4. I wonder if it would be better to pay the extra $$ he wants over what Boozer is making now, and go after Josh Smith. I think his skill set can push us into the top 4. Thoughts?

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Mediumcore wrote:

Say if this trade goes through and all the stars line up and Boozer is motivated and willing to be a team player. How good do you guys think the Raptors could be next season?

1. Miami
2. Indiana
3. Chicago - if they go after Josh Smith and Rose returns healthy .... watch out.
4. New York
5. Brooklyn
6. Toronto?

Maybe we could jump Brooklyn and be around the 5th seed, but I can't see us being top 4. I wonder if it would be better to pay the extra $$ he wants over what Boozer is making now, and go after Josh Smith. I think his skill set can push us into the top 4. Thoughts?

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I'm thinking 50 wins would be a realistic possibility (if the stars aligned). That should be good enough for the 4th-5th seed.

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white men can't jump wrote:

Especially the deal as is.....Why would we give them JL3??? We'd still have depth issues at PG. I'm not saying it's a dealbreaker, but they clearly want him rather than us offering him, right??

I still am really not keen on this deal. I think it could be the worst deal possible, but I also realize it may be the only one available that makes any kind of sense, even if it's minimal. For me to consider this deal at all, they would absolutely have to throw in a 1st round pick. Otherwise, I don't see why BC should feel any pressure. I still think it's not a huge deal if we miss the playoffs this year. He has already saved his job, and re-energized the fanbase. There's no reason in my mind that a similar deal won't be available in the summer, when Chicago is still likely to pay the tax next year so they will want to make savings. We don't have to take this deal now just to do them a favor (in terms of letting them save money, just so we're a slightly better first round exit this season at best).
*REally, doing this move now is ONLY because it improves our playoff chances this year. Any other move in now or in the summer to get a different PF likely improves our team in the years to come...to me this is more important, and again, if nothing presents itself, the Boozer deal should still be there because apparently no other team wants him.

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I'm assuming they are including the Lucas/Robinson portion of the deal to help minimize the Boozer/Bargnani salary discrepancy (from Toronto's perspective), while still enabling Chicago to get below the luxury tax threshhold. I don't think the Bulls really care about either Lucas/Robinson, since both will be gone after this season - they have Rose coming back, Hinrich under contract for next season and Teague developing as Hinrich's eventual successor.

I still don't like it, even if a 1st round pick is included from Chicago.