View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #8941
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    So, let's compare them to the historical numbers:

    Year Record 20+ games Winning percentage Record 20- games Winning percentage
    2006/2007 3-1 75% 32-29 52%
    2007/2008 5-6 45% 33-34 49%
    2008/2009 12-14 46% 18-33 35%
    2009/2010 17-10 63% 22-31 42%
    2010/2011 16-25 39% 3-22 12%
    2011/2012 9-6 60% 4-12 25%
    2012/2013 0-9 0% 9-15 38%
    Career 62-71 47% 121-176 41%

    Used the stats from basketball-reference.com.
    Now that is the type of stuff I like to see. Thanks, SoftEuro.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #8942
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Meaningless and anecdotal as it may be in your opinion, we are talking about a guy who has played just 33 games this season.

    In games he has scored 20 or more the Raptors are 0-8.

    In games he has not played at all, the Raptors are 14-13.

    In games he has started the Raptors are 4-23.

    In games he has played but not started the Raptors are 5-5.


    That is the great things about numbers, basketball, and forums, people can and will draw their own conclusions - and quite often be extremely different. Personally, I see those numbers and feel they are quite telling and relevant. I respect anyone who feels differently I just think they are wrong.
    I see SoftEuro provided 6 years of evidence that the point your implying with the "0-9 with 20+ points" flies in the face of his historical impact when he scores 20+. I didn't need the stats to know that what you were presenting was simply convenient anecdotal information to support a narrative/agenda, any less than my example of Rudy having 4 steals is bad for the Raps. Thank you SoftEuro. Don't listen to my buddy Nilballsa. I went through the cycle most have with regard to high hopes for AB, and despite my stubborn version of fandom, have pretty much given up on him becoming what he's capable of. I'm not "pro Bargnani", but anti over the top twisting information and harping every day, that strangely enough seems to have been ramped up the day after he plays a very good game at both ends.

    As twisted as I can be about .........(oops, better be careful about how candid I am about my own faults/errors, because Nilballsa will sneak up from behind like a sniveling weasel and use it against me tomorrow, next week, next month, 6 months from now). Never mind.

    Even though I've been accepting the reality of disappointment in Bargnani's lack of consistency and achieving the best he can be,,,,, and wanting him moved out as well, the incessant mud slinging here, and the booing him as he steps on the floor, has me praying he does the totally unexpected (yes, by me too) and totally turns it around, almost as much to stick it to some people, as it would benefit the Raps in getting value for him.

    PS. I fail to see how responding with simply referring to me as the second coming of someone being dissed or laughed about, is in any way "respect" for a different opinion.
    Last edited by p00ka; Tue Mar 5th, 2013 at 07:32 PM.

  3. #8943
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    The reality is when bargnani is healthy enough to play and he does so, this team sucks.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  4. #8944
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I see SoftEuro provided 6 years of evidence that the point your implying with the "0-9 with 20+ points" flies in the face of his historical impact when he scores 20+. I didn't need the stats to know that what you were presenting was simply convenient anecdotal information to support a narrative/agenda, any less than my example of Rudy having 4 steals is bad for the Raps. Thank you SoftEuro. Don't listen to my buddy Nilballsa. I went through the cycle most have with regard to high hopes for AB, and despite my stubborn version of fandom, have pretty much given up on him becoming what he's capable of. I'm not "pro Bargnani", but anti over the top twisting information and harping every day, that strangely enough seems to have been ramped up the day after he plays a very good game at both ends.

    As twisted as I can be about .........(oops, better be careful about how candid I am about my own faults/errors, because Nilballsa will sneak up from behind like a sniveling weasel and use it against me tomorrow, next week, next month, 6 months from now). Never mind.

    Even though I've been accepting the reality of disappointment in Bargnani's lack of consistency and achieving the best he can be,,,,, and wanting him moved out as well, the incessant mud slinging here, and the booing him as he steps on the floor, has me praying he does the totally unexpected (yes, by me too) and totally turns it around, almost as much to stick it to some people, as it would benefit the Raps in getting value for him.

    PS. I fail to see how responding with simply referring to me as the second coming of someone being dissed or laughed about, is in any way "respect" for a different opinion.
    My juvenile barb was a joke that was typed prior to your reply.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  5. #8945
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    hahahaha the heinz-isms are back! hahaha

    yeah, those were the good ole days.

    i bet you those two are still here, posting anonymously, lurking.

    i think its too bad that the mods pulled a Casey-Lowry on these two, asking them to conform to the team otherwise you're gone. But their old ways were much more fun, hehehe
    It's much more interesting when people argue and disagree, makes the topic of conversation more appealing and the will to participate even greater.

    Come on guys we need some trolls up in here, bring your A game

  6. #8946
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Multipaul was definitely a "nut-hugger". He once posted, "Bargnani, Gallinari and Bellineli FTW" on the main page, and then tried to convince us he wasn't Italian :|

    Tim W. was just presenting his opinion using sound, logical arguments (most of which have turned out to be completely true 3 years later). I wouldn't call that being a "hater".
    Even the one about Amir being the best player on the team? i realize this is a bad time to bring this up..

  7. #8947
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Which is as valuable an insight as the raps being 0-3 when Rudy gets 4 steals, or 0-2 when he gets 9 or more rebounds.
    Totally agree. 'Stats' like these are almost as ridiculous as those "____ leads ____ 32-14 all time, looks like ____ is heavily favoured in this matchup". Yeah, because both teams have had the same roster for 30 years now.

  8. #8948
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I see SoftEuro provided 6 years of evidence that the point your implying with the "0-9 with 20+ points" flies in the face of his historical impact when he scores 20+. I didn't need the stats to know that what you were presenting was simply convenient anecdotal information to support a narrative/agenda, any less than my example of Rudy having 4 steals is bad for the Raps. Thank you SoftEuro. Don't listen to my buddy Nilballsa. I went through the cycle most have with regard to high hopes for AB, and despite my stubborn version of fandom, have pretty much given up on him becoming what he's capable of. I'm not "pro Bargnani", but anti over the top twisting information and harping every day, that strangely enough seems to have been ramped up the day after he plays a very good game at both ends.

    As twisted as I can be about .........(oops, better be careful about how candid I am about my own faults/errors, because Nilballsa will sneak up from behind like a sniveling weasel and use it against me tomorrow, next week, next month, 6 months from now). Never mind.

    Even though I've been accepting the reality of disappointment in Bargnani's lack of consistency and achieving the best he can be,,,,, and wanting him moved out as well, the incessant mud slinging here, and the booing him as he steps on the floor, has me praying he does the totally unexpected (yes, by me too) and totally turns it around, almost as much to stick it to some people, as it would benefit the Raps in getting value for him.

    PS. I fail to see how responding with simply referring to me as the second coming of someone being dissed or laughed about, is in any way "respect" for a different opinion.
    You guys are obviously having a little brew-ha-ha. Keep it up, just don't go overboard.

    I think isolated stats such as "if he scores 20+ points, the team is ___ this record" are very telling in one's ability to really impact a game, good or bad. But, it likely doesn't tell the whole story, because one player does not win/lose a basketball game.
    I've never been a huge stat guy other than individual averages.. Never really believed in stats in general though. In a game like basketball, some of the best players in the league are totally opposite of what analytic's guys want to see.

  9. #8949
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    My juvenile barb was a joke that was typed prior to your reply.
    Is that an apology? 'Cus it seems like you go 90% there and just let it linger for awhile...

    For the record, I'm pro P00ka 30% of the time.

    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    I think isolated stats such as "if he scores 20+ points, the team is ___ this record" are very telling in one's ability to really impact a game, good or bad. But, it likely doesn't tell the whole story, because one player does not win/lose a basketball game.
    I could be wrong but I think Allen Iverson started all analysis of volume shooters, and the idea, that scoring a lot of points is not necessary good. I think a case can be made that Bargs has that ability to negatively impact a game with bad shoot selection. I heard on broadcast recently that one of the Van Gundy's (i think Jeff) argues that FG% is more about SHOT SELECTION than it is about ABILITY TO SHOOT. I think almost all Raptors with the exception of maybe Amir (we can't argue he's our best player, but can we argue he's our most productive player per dollar?), that get regular minutes either as starters or bench players have poor shot selection. To some extent I think you can blame the players (Bargs, but also Derozan, Lowry, and Gay) but you also have to give some of that blame to the coaching staff.

    I'm not sure that you can go as far as to say the more bargnani scores the more likely we are to lose, but Bargs has had 3-4 coaches now, and I think he has shown poor shot selection for a number of years, possibly his whole career? People used to compare him to a Dirk Nowitzki then a Dirk-lite, and now NOBODY is making any Dirk comparison's. Shot selection is only one of those reasons, but it is a very easy point to poor shot selection as contributing offensive inefficiency. It'd be nice if we could improve shot selection of the entire team, either by players improving themselves or by better coaching schemes.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  10. #8950
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    who even cares anymore
    +1

    That's not the mystery

    The mystery is why we give a $&#!

  11. #8951
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    Is that an apology? 'Cus it seems like you go 90% there and just let it linger for awhile...

    For the record, I'm pro P00ka 30% of the time.



    I could be wrong but I think Allen Iverson started all analysis of volume shooters, and the idea, that scoring a lot of points is not necessary good. I think a case can be made that Bargs has that ability to negatively impact a game with bad shoot selection. I heard on broadcast recently that one of the Van Gundy's (i think Jeff) argues that FG% is more about SHOT SELECTION than it is about ABILITY TO SHOOT. I think almost all Raptors with the exception of maybe Amir (we can't argue he's our best player, but can we argue he's our most productive player per dollar?), that get regular minutes either as starters or bench players have poor shot selection. To some extent I think you can blame the players (Bargs, but also Derozan, Lowry, and Gay) but you also have to give some of that blame to the coaching staff.

    I'm not sure that you can go as far as to say the more bargnani scores the more likely we are to lose, but Bargs has had 3-4 coaches now, and I think he has shown poor shot selection for a number of years, possibly his whole career? People used to compare him to a Dirk Nowitzki then a Dirk-lite, and now NOBODY is making any Dirk comparison's. Shot selection is only one of those reasons, but it is a very easy point to poor shot selection as contributing offensive inefficiency. It'd be nice if we could improve shot selection of the entire team, either by players improving themselves or by better coaching schemes.
    It's an interesting argument (even tho iverson is one of the best 30 players ever to play).

    The real point isn't any of this tho. He has no idea how to make other players better. I agree that his shot selection is terrible, but that's not the reason why everyone hates him.

    It's that his play is inconsequential. He doesn't help the team in anyway.

    Bottom line is whatever he brings to the table ie 26 points every 10 games is nothing we couldn't get out of pretty much any player in the league who could shoot

    IMO he has to prove to the team that he deserves to play every minute that he is given.

    I honestly don't know how he looks Amir in the eye everyday

  12. #8952
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I see SoftEuro provided 6 years of evidence that the point your implying with the "0-9 with 20+ points" flies in the face of his historical impact when he scores 20+. I didn't need the stats to know that what you were presenting was simply convenient anecdotal information to support a narrative/agenda, any less than my example of Rudy having 4 steals is bad for the Raps. Thank you SoftEuro. Don't listen to my buddy Nilballsa. I went through the cycle most have with regard to high hopes for AB, and despite my stubborn version of fandom, have pretty much given up on him becoming what he's capable of. I'm not "pro Bargnani", but anti over the top twisting information and harping every day, that strangely enough seems to have been ramped up the day after he plays a very good game at both ends.

    As twisted as I can be about .........(oops, better be careful about how candid I am about my own faults/errors, because Nilballsa will sneak up from behind like a sniveling weasel and use it against me tomorrow, next week, next month, 6 months from now). Never mind.

    Even though I've been accepting the reality of disappointment in Bargnani's lack of consistency and achieving the best he can be,,,,, and wanting him moved out as well, the incessant mud slinging here, and the booing him as he steps on the floor, has me praying he does the totally unexpected (yes, by me too) and totally turns it around, almost as much to stick it to some people, as it would benefit the Raps in getting value for him.

    PS. I fail to see how responding with simply referring to me as the second coming of someone being dissed or laughed about, is in any way "respect" for a different opinion.
    Creating new names is what you do best. I wouldn't expect anything less from you.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  13. #8953
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote Sig wrote: View Post
    It's much more interesting when people argue and disagree, makes the topic of conversation more appealing and the will to participate even greater.

    Come on guys we need some trolls up in here, bring your A game
    there's certain levels of trolls that are completely acceptable... i dont mind the nonsensical tenforthewin type trolls... they're entertaining... and the single minded focused trolls that exist purely to argue, i'm good with them too.. say what you will about multipaul's misguided bargnani love, but NOBODY on this board since him was as optimistic about the team than him

    i'd even argue that i'm somewhat of a troll, without intention.. as i generally derail conversations and distract from what the actual talking points are...

    then there's the people who seed negativity... they just aren't enjoyable at all... i can't even understand how being a dick is entertaining for somebody... i used to get into it with the kinds of trolls who like attacking people, and have the mod warning emails as my battle scars.. but it's just not even worth it to play that game..

    there's plenty of people here... well informed people.. with points of view both supporting your own, and going against yours... to foster really great conversations... there's threads i won't even touch, knowing what kind of thing i'd bring to the conversation (ie/ some kind of analogy involving strippers, pubic hair, and fingers in places on bodies that are usually exit points), i don't want to degrade the ongoing dialogue..

    it's like when you're getting a REALLY good lapdance... nothing that crosses any legality lines... but just damn solid lapdance.. solid grind, decent above the pants stick work, great rack yet not shoving your face in them like that's their only trick, doesn't stink too much of that cheap victoria's secret body spray... then, the girl ups the ante by dropping your pants a bit and basically giving you a lapdance on your underwear...

    that there is a solid dance that you can go home and relive in your head while you're getting down with your girlfriend...

    you don't screw that dance up by stinking a thumb up her bum

  14. #8954
    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    there's certain levels of trolls that are completely acceptable... i dont mind the nonsensical tenforthewin type trolls... they're entertaining... and the single minded focused trolls that exist purely to argue, i'm good with them too.. say what you will about multipaul's misguided bargnani love, but NOBODY on this board since him was as optimistic about the team than him

    i'd even argue that i'm somewhat of a troll, without intention.. as i generally derail conversations and distract from what the actual talking points are...

    then there's the people who seed negativity... they just aren't enjoyable at all... i can't even understand how being a dick is entertaining for somebody... i used to get into it with the kinds of trolls who like attacking people, and have the mod warning emails as my battle scars.. but it's just not even worth it to play that game..

    there's plenty of people here... well informed people.. with points of view both supporting your own, and going against yours... to foster really great conversations... there's threads i won't even touch, knowing what kind of thing i'd bring to the conversation (ie/ some kind of analogy involving strippers, pubic hair, and fingers in places on bodies that are usually exit points), i don't want to degrade the ongoing dialogue..

    it's like when you're getting a REALLY good lapdance... nothing that crosses any legality lines... but just damn solid lapdance.. solid grind, decent above the pants stick work, great rack yet not shoving your face in them like that's their only trick, doesn't stink too much of that cheap victoria's secret body spray... then, the girl ups the ante by dropping your pants a bit and basically giving you a lapdance on your underwear...

    that there is a solid dance that you can go home and relive in your head while you're getting down with your girlfriend...

    you don't screw that dance up by stinking a thumb up her bum
    Wow....what is this thread about again? Epic analogy
    F*ck Brooklyn

  15. #8955
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Wow....what is this thread about again? Epic analogy
    anytime a new bargnani thread pops up... expect me to try and derail it.

    the topic has been done to death..

  16. #8956
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I see SoftEuro provided 6 years of evidence that the point your implying with the "0-9 with 20+ points" flies in the face of his historical impact when he scores 20+.
    Not really. They win less than half the time, historically, when he scores 20+.

    Again, the larger point is that he has little to no impact on making this organization a winner. All you have to do is look at the team's win/loss record the last 6 years to demonstrate that point.

  17. #8957
    Administrator Dr. James Naismith's Avatar
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    Just to clarify because I recall someone in this thread mention that "they" (MultiPaul & Tim W.) were both banned. MultiPaul? Yes. Tim? No. Tim choose to leave on his own accord. Had too much "bangin' his head against the wall" with his peers. It was shame because he was one of my personal favourite contributors here at RR. I've reached out to him since then to see if he'd reconsider coming back, but to no avail. Buddahfan was another solid contributor here as well. If I recall correctly, he got tired of arguing here at RR. That personally doesn't make sense to me because at the end of the day, isn't that what message boards are for? If we all agreed on everything and had one big circle jerk, wouldn't that make a discussion forum obsolete? I don't get it but they're welcome to return at any point.

  18. #8958
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    anytime a new bargnani thread pops up... expect me to try and derail it.

    the topic has been done to death..
    I'm tempted to start a new Bargs thread just to see how dedicated you are to your craft

    "Does Bargnani stink like doo-doo?" is all I've got so far...
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  19. #8959
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    Quote Doc Naismith wrote: View Post
    Just to clarify because I recall someone in this thread mention that "they" (MultiPaul & Tim W.) were both banned. MultiPaul? Yes. Tim? No. Tim choose to leave on his own accord. Had too much "bangin' his head against the wall" with his peers. It was shame because he was one of my personal favourite contributors here at RR. I've reached out to him since then to see if he'd reconsider coming back, but to no avail. Buddahfan was another solid contributor here as well. If I recall correctly, he got tired of arguing here at RR. That personally doesn't make sense to me because at the end of the day, isn't that what message boards are for? If we all agreed on everything and had one big circle jerk, wouldn't that make a discussion forum obsolete? I don't get it but they're welcome to return at any point.
    This. the point isn't to be heard. the point is to be heard and to listen to others.

    it's like people on twitter who have thousands of followers... but only follow like 10 people... well, then what the hell is the point? just start a blog. don't join a social network just to pimp yourself, without being social.

  20. #8960
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    Quote Doc Naismith wrote: View Post
    Just to clarify because I recall someone in this thread mention that "they" (MultiPaul & Tim W.) were both banned. MultiPaul? Yes. Tim? No. Tim choose to leave on his own accord. Had too much "bangin' his head against the wall" with his peers. It was shame because he was one of my personal favourite contributors here at RR. I've reached out to him since then to see if he'd reconsider coming back, but to no avail. Buddahfan was another solid contributor here as well. If I recall correctly, he got tired of arguing here at RR. That personally doesn't make sense to me because at the end of the day, isn't that what message boards are for? If we all agreed on everything and had one big circle jerk, wouldn't that make a discussion forum obsolete? I don't get it but they're welcome to return at any point.
    I don't need to know the story or anything, and I'm sure there was a good reason but I miss Multipaul's optimism. The negativity on this board makes me have to take a break sometimes.
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

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