Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[BallaBalla]

Is that an apology? 'Cus it seems like you go 90% there and just let it linger for awhile...

For the record, I'm pro P00ka 30% of the time.



I could be wrong but I think Allen Iverson started all analysis of volume shooters, and the idea, that scoring a lot of points is not necessary good. I think a case can be made that Bargs has that ability to negatively impact a game with bad shoot selection. I heard on broadcast recently that one of the Van Gundy's (i think Jeff) argues that FG% is more about SHOT SELECTION than it is about ABILITY TO SHOOT. I think almost all Raptors with the exception of maybe Amir (we can't argue he's our best player, but can we argue he's our most productive player per dollar?), that get regular minutes either as starters or bench players have poor shot selection. To some extent I think you can blame the players (Bargs, but also Derozan, Lowry, and Gay) but you also have to give some of that blame to the coaching staff.

I'm not sure that you can go as far as to say the more bargnani scores the more likely we are to lose, but Bargs has had 3-4 coaches now, and I think he has shown poor shot selection for a number of years, possibly his whole career? People used to compare him to a Dirk Nowitzki then a Dirk-lite, and now NOBODY is making any Dirk comparison's. Shot selection is only one of those reasons, but it is a very easy point to poor shot selection as contributing offensive inefficiency. It'd be nice if we could improve shot selection of the entire team, either by players improving themselves or by better coaching schemes.

It's an interesting argument (even tho iverson is one of the best 30 players ever to play).

The real point isn't any of this tho. He has no idea how to make other players better. I agree that his shot selection is terrible, but that's not the reason why everyone hates him.

It's that his play is inconsequential. He doesn't help the team in anyway.

Bottom line is whatever he brings to the table ie 26 points every 10 games is nothing we couldn't get out of pretty much any player in the league who could shoot

IMO he has to prove to the team that he deserves to play every minute that he is given.

I honestly don't know how he looks Amir in the eye everyday

[Nilanka]

I see SoftEuro provided 6 years of evidence that the point your implying with the "0-9 with 20+ points" flies in the face of his historical impact when he scores 20+. I didn't need the stats to know that what you were presenting was simply convenient anecdotal information to support a narrative/agenda, any less than my example of Rudy having 4 steals is bad for the Raps. Thank you SoftEuro. Don't listen to my buddy Nilballsa. I went through the cycle most have with regard to high hopes for AB, and despite my stubborn version of fandom, have pretty much given up on him becoming what he's capable of. I'm not "pro Bargnani", but anti over the top twisting information and harping every day, that strangely enough seems to have been ramped up the day after he plays a very good game at both ends.

As twisted as I can be about .........(oops, better be careful about how candid I am about my own faults/errors, because Nilballsa will sneak up from behind like a sniveling weasel and use it against me tomorrow, next week, next month, 6 months from now). Never mind.

Even though I've been accepting the reality of disappointment in Bargnani's lack of consistency and achieving the best he can be,,,,, and wanting him moved out as well, the incessant mud slinging here, and the booing him as he steps on the floor, has me praying he does the totally unexpected (yes, by me too) and totally turns it around, almost as much to stick it to some people, as it would benefit the Raps in getting value for him.

PS. I fail to see how responding with simply referring to me as the second coming of someone being dissed or laughed about, is in any way "respect" for a different opinion.

Creating new names is what you do best. I wouldn't expect anything less from you.

[heinz57]

It's much more interesting when people argue and disagree, makes the topic of conversation more appealing and the will to participate even greater.

Come on guys we need some trolls up in here, bring your A game

there's certain levels of trolls that are completely acceptable... i dont mind the nonsensical tenforthewin type trolls... they're entertaining... and the single minded focused trolls that exist purely to argue, i'm good with them too.. say what you will about multipaul's misguided bargnani love, but NOBODY on this board since him was as optimistic about the team than him

i'd even argue that i'm somewhat of a troll, without intention.. as i generally derail conversations and distract from what the actual talking points are...

then there's the people who seed negativity... they just aren't enjoyable at all... i can't even understand how being a dick is entertaining for somebody... i used to get into it with the kinds of trolls who like attacking people, and have the mod warning emails as my battle scars.. but it's just not even worth it to play that game..

there's plenty of people here... well informed people.. with points of view both supporting your own, and going against yours... to foster really great conversations... there's threads i won't even touch, knowing what kind of thing i'd bring to the conversation (ie/ some kind of analogy involving strippers, pubic hair, and fingers in places on bodies that are usually exit points), i don't want to degrade the ongoing dialogue..

it's like when you're getting a REALLY good lapdance... nothing that crosses any legality lines... but just damn solid lapdance.. solid grind, decent above the pants stick work, great rack yet not shoving your face in them like that's their only trick, doesn't stink too much of that cheap victoria's secret body spray... then, the girl ups the ante by dropping your pants a bit and basically giving you a lapdance on your underwear...

that there is a solid dance that you can go home and relive in your head while you're getting down with your girlfriend...

you don't screw that dance up by stinking a thumb up her bum

[Axel]

there's certain levels of trolls that are completely acceptable... i dont mind the nonsensical tenforthewin type trolls... they're entertaining... and the single minded focused trolls that exist purely to argue, i'm good with them too.. say what you will about multipaul's misguided bargnani love, but NOBODY on this board since him was as optimistic about the team than him

i'd even argue that i'm somewhat of a troll, without intention.. as i generally derail conversations and distract from what the actual talking points are...

then there's the people who seed negativity... they just aren't enjoyable at all... i can't even understand how being a dick is entertaining for somebody... i used to get into it with the kinds of trolls who like attacking people, and have the mod warning emails as my battle scars.. but it's just not even worth it to play that game..

there's plenty of people here... well informed people.. with points of view both supporting your own, and going against yours... to foster really great conversations... there's threads i won't even touch, knowing what kind of thing i'd bring to the conversation (ie/ some kind of analogy involving strippers, pubic hair, and fingers in places on bodies that are usually exit points), i don't want to degrade the ongoing dialogue..

it's like when you're getting a REALLY good lapdance... nothing that crosses any legality lines... but just damn solid lapdance.. solid grind, decent above the pants stick work, great rack yet not shoving your face in them like that's their only trick, doesn't stink too much of that cheap victoria's secret body spray... then, the girl ups the ante by dropping your pants a bit and basically giving you a lapdance on your underwear...

that there is a solid dance that you can go home and relive in your head while you're getting down with your girlfriend...

you don't screw that dance up by stinking a thumb up her bum

Wow....what is this thread about again? Epic analogy

[heinz57]

Wow....what is this thread about again? Epic analogy

anytime a new bargnani thread pops up... expect me to try and derail it.

the topic has been done to death..

[slaw]

I see SoftEuro provided 6 years of evidence that the point your implying with the "0-9 with 20+ points" flies in the face of his historical impact when he scores 20+.

Not really. They win less than half the time, historically, when he scores 20+.

Again, the larger point is that he has little to no impact on making this organization a winner. All you have to do is look at the team's win/loss record the last 6 years to demonstrate that point.

[Dr. James Naismith]

Just to clarify because I recall someone in this thread mention that "they" (MultiPaul & Tim W.) were both banned. MultiPaul? Yes. Tim? No. Tim choose to leave on his own accord. Had too much "bangin' his head against the wall" with his peers. It was shame because he was one of my personal favourite contributors here at RR. I've reached out to him since then to see if he'd reconsider coming back, but to no avail. Buddahfan was another solid contributor here as well. If I recall correctly, he got tired of arguing here at RR. That personally doesn't make sense to me because at the end of the day, isn't that what message boards are for? If we all agreed on everything and had one big circle jerk, wouldn't that make a discussion forum obsolete? I don't get it but they're welcome to return at any point.

[Nilanka]

anytime a new bargnani thread pops up... expect me to try and derail it.

the topic has been done to death..

I'm tempted to start a new Bargs thread just to see how dedicated you are to your craft

"Does Bargnani stink like doo-doo?" is all I've got so far...

[heinz57]

Just to clarify because I recall someone in this thread mention that "they" (MultiPaul & Tim W.) were both banned. MultiPaul? Yes. Tim? No. Tim choose to leave on his own accord. Had too much "bangin' his head against the wall" with his peers. It was shame because he was one of my personal favourite contributors here at RR. I've reached out to him since then to see if he'd reconsider coming back, but to no avail. Buddahfan was another solid contributor here as well. If I recall correctly, he got tired of arguing here at RR. That personally doesn't make sense to me because at the end of the day, isn't that what message boards are for? If we all agreed on everything and had one big circle jerk, wouldn't that make a discussion forum obsolete? I don't get it but they're welcome to return at any point.

This. the point isn't to be heard. the point is to be heard and to listen to others.

it's like people on twitter who have thousands of followers... but only follow like 10 people... well, then what the hell is the point? just start a blog. don't join a social network just to pimp yourself, without being social.

[Employee]

Just to clarify because I recall someone in this thread mention that "they" (MultiPaul & Tim W.) were both banned. MultiPaul? Yes. Tim? No. Tim choose to leave on his own accord. Had too much "bangin' his head against the wall" with his peers. It was shame because he was one of my personal favourite contributors here at RR. I've reached out to him since then to see if he'd reconsider coming back, but to no avail. Buddahfan was another solid contributor here as well. If I recall correctly, he got tired of arguing here at RR. That personally doesn't make sense to me because at the end of the day, isn't that what message boards are for? If we all agreed on everything and had one big circle jerk, wouldn't that make a discussion forum obsolete? I don't get it but they're welcome to return at any point.

I don't need to know the story or anything, and I'm sure there was a good reason but I miss Multipaul's optimism. The negativity on this board makes me have to take a break sometimes.

[heinz57]

I'm tempted to start a new Bargs thread just to see how dedicated you are to your craft

"Does Bargnani stink like doo-doo?" is all I've got so far...

somebody send Multipaul a telegram that i'm coming to join him... Nilanka is conducting my train ride straight to ban-town

[p00ka]

Not really. They win less than half the time, historically, when he scores 20+.

Again, the larger point is that he has little to no impact on making this organization a winner. All you have to do is look at the team's win/loss record the last 6 years to demonstrate that point.

LOL, a common RR 2-step: if argument "A" doesn't work, change the topic to argument "B" *sigh*

That aside this incredibly simplistic and naive "team record" argument is used so often here. Hasn't anyone debunked this yet, or are you just listening to what you want? You do understand that basketball is a TEAM game, right? Tell me, have you not been critical of management & coaching over this period? How about the other 14 player mixes over those 6 years? Have you been critical of them? I'd say the answer to all 3 is a resounding YES. Yet you put the team win/loss record on Bargnani that he doesn't contribute to a "winner"?

Based on this silly reasoning of yours, Paul Pierce was garbage/useless/"no impact on making (his) organization a winner" for 4 years prior to KG and Ray joining him. Not a rookie, starting with his 3rd year in the league, his team's winning percentage over 4 years was 42% with the last year being a 24 win season. By comparison, the 6 year won/loss record by the Raptors TEAM, that you cite, was 43%. If you exclude last years abomination of a season (no training camp, insanely compressed schedule, his absence when they did worse than with him), the previous 5 years the team winning percentage was 45%.

So based on your reasoning, Pierce was bad for the Celtics and he contributed to winning even less than Bargnani has done. Is that a good judgement of Paul Pierce? There are plenty more such examples if you're still unable to see the silliness in judging a player's value by his team's bare record. Here's a quick one: in Michael Jordon's (the best of all time) first 3 seasons, his TEAM'S winning percentage was 44%. Was he not a winner? They didn't become a "winner" until he had Pippen (another HOFer) and Horace Grant on his team, just like Pierce wasn't a "winner" until he had 2 HOFers on his team.

Using bare individual statistics ignores many key contributing factors in judging a player. That's bad enough, but using bare team stats (win/loss) to judge an individual's value is beyond silly. There's much about Bargnani to criticize, but the original "0-9 record" argument, as well as this larger "team win/loss" is unnecessary grasping at empty straws.

Getting back to the original implication about the Raps doing better without his scoring, the team record over the 6 years you speak of says very differently, contrary to your "Not really"

[slaw]

pooka, what are you talking about? Dude, Bargnani's box score statistics are awful. His advanced metrics are awful. The team hasn't improved with him here or won. I don't need to cherry pick stats. Using any measure available, the guy is a below average player.

Is the Raptors awfulness all his fault? No, never said that. Colangelo is ultimately responsible for the crappy roster and second rate coaches but Bargnani certainly hasn't done anything to help turn it around. In fact, a big part of the reason for the failure here has been the insistence on making him a focal point of the rebuilding efforts when he wasn't capable of filling that role. Again, is that his fault? Only in the sense that he never rose to the occassion.

I can't speak for anyone else but I've never been a Bargnani fanboy or hater. He is what he is. Given a defined role (like Mitchell gave him his rookie year) and making him a mere complimentary piece might work but it won't work here. It's too late. Again, it's not all his fault but he hasn't exactly helped either.

[tenforthewin]

Trade Bargs + Derozan + 2014 1st round pick for Kevin Love + Alexey Shved from the Wolves.

Lowry
Shved
Gay
Love
Val

With bench Ross, Fields, Amir as our primary bench. Perhaps sign a veteran big to backup Val and a decent backup PG.

[p00ka]

pooka, what are you talking about? Dude, Bargnani's box score statistics are awful. His advanced metrics are awful. The team hasn't improved with him here or won. I don't need to cherry pick stats. Using any measure available, the guy is a below average player.

Is the Raptors awfulness all his fault? No, never said that. Colangelo is ultimately responsible for the crappy roster and second rate coaches but Bargnani certainly hasn't done anything to help turn it around. In fact, a big part of the reason for the failure here has been the insistence on making him a focal point of the rebuilding efforts when he wasn't capable of filling that role. Again, is that his fault? Only in the sense that he never rose to the occassion.

I can't speak for anyone else but I've never been a Bargnani fanboy or hater. He is what he is. Given a defined role (like Mitchell gave him his rookie year) and making him a mere complimentary piece might work but it won't work here. It's too late. Again, it's not all his fault but he hasn't exactly helped either.

Huh? What am I talking about? I'm talking about the subject you changed the discussion to. So now that argument "B" doesn't fly, you now want to expand it to argument "C" and "D"? Not jumping on this never ending merry-go-round.

I jumped in here because despite all the criticism that can be justifiably leveled at AB, the "0-9 when he scores 20+" was flawed anecdotal evidence that offers nothing of value to a discussion when presented as a stand-alone "point". That's been well "proven", if you will. You then countered with changing the topic to his not contributing to a winner based on nothing but the team's win/loss record over 6 years. I pointed out how flawed that simple reasoning is. Now you want to expand it to yet another argument. No mas!!!!

You don't like what he delivers to our team. I don't like what he delivers to our team. We differ on how useful it is to re-hash the same old arguments over and over and over. Apparently we also differ in the validity we assume in points that I think are misguided interpretation of stats to support an agenda/narrative. If that works for you, I'm glad it offers you some comfort.

BARGNANI STINKS!!!!!!!! there, I tried, but somehow that doesn't contribute much to the "winner" (as in me gaining something from being a fan) attitude I try and maintain, that is illustrated by my signature.

[ReubenJRD]

Trade Bargs + Derozan + 2014 1st round pick for Kevin Love + Alexey Shved from the Wolves.

Lowry
Shved
Gay
Love
Val

With bench Ross, Fields, Amir as our primary bench. Perhaps sign a veteran big to backup Val and a decent backup PG.

LOL MAN OMG HAHAHAAH.. wow

[Raptor_11]

Trade Bargs + Derozan + 2014 1st round pick for Kevin Love + Alexey Shved from the Wolves.

Lowry
Shved
Gay
Love
Val

With bench Ross, Fields, Amir as our primary bench. Perhaps sign a veteran big to backup Val and a decent backup PG.

[Matt52]

Huh? What am I talking about? I'm talking about the subject you changed the discussion to. So now that argument "B" doesn't fly, you now want to expand it to argument "C" and "D"? Not jumping on this never ending merry-go-round.

I jumped in here because despite all the criticism that can be justifiably leveled at AB, the "0-9 when he scores 20+" was flawed anecdotal evidence that offers nothing of value to a discussion when presented as a stand-alone "point". That's been well "proven", if you will. You then countered with changing the topic to his not contributing to a winner based on nothing but the team's win/loss record over 6 years. I pointed out how flawed that simple reasoning is. Now you want to expand it to yet another argument. No mas!!!!

You don't like what he delivers to our team. I don't like what he delivers to our team. We differ on how useful it is to re-hash the same old arguments over and over and over. Apparently we also differ in the validity we assume in points that I think are misguided interpretation of stats to support an agenda/narrative. If that works for you, I'm glad it offers you some comfort.

BARGNANI STINKS!!!!!!!! there, I tried, but somehow that doesn't contribute much to the "winner" (as in me gaining something from being a fan) attitude I try and maintain, that is illustrated by my signature.

It is a very relevant point in my opinion.

Also 4-24 as a starter is relevant as well when considering Raps are a .500 team with him off the bench and 1 game over .500 with him out. This one is more important in my opinion.

[p00ka]

It is a very relevant point in my opinion.

Also 4-24 as a starter is relevant as well when considering Raps are a .500 team with him off the bench and 1 game over .500 with him out. This one is more important in my opinion.

So different teammates in/out, different opponents, vastly different schedule, as well as many other factors, make no difference. Just your analysis of start/bench/out stats. Well, let's do that for someone else over a 40% bigger sample size.

Prior to the big trade, moving Jose and ED out, Gay in, the Raps played 46 games, compared to your 33 game sample for Bargs. Using the same participation criteria to evaluate Lowry's effectiveness over that span:

As starter:-------- 3-15 .166

Off the bench:---- 7-8 .466

Did not play:------ 7-6 .538

Does this mean the Raps are much better when Lowry doesn't start, and better still when he doesn't play at all?

[BallaBalla]

So different teammates in/out, different opponents, vastly different schedule, as well as many other factors, make no difference. Just your analysis of start/bench/out stats. Well, let's do that for someone else over a 40% bigger sample size.

Prior to the big trade, moving Jose and ED out, Gay in, the Raps played 46 games, compared to your 33 game sample for Bargs. Using the same participation criteria to evaluate Lowry's effectiveness over that span:

As starter:-------- 3-15 .166

Off the bench:---- 7-8 .466

Did not play:------ 7-6 .538

Does this mean the Raps are much better when Lowry doesn't start, and better still when he doesn't play at all?

It's all fine to isolate bargs for this season. Take his whole tenure and see how is record is