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Thread: Article: NBA's "Most Problematic Contracts" - Bill Simmons w/ more Evidence Post #30

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Default Article: NBA's "Most Problematic Contracts" - Bill Simmons w/ more Evidence Post #30

    Rudy Gay (Toronto Raptors): Three years, $53.7 million (third-year player option)
    Andrea Bargnani (Toronto Raptors): Three years, $32.2 million (third-year early-termination option)
    DeMar DeRozan (Toronto Raptors): Five years, $41.3 million
    Landry Fields (Toronto Raptors): Three years, $18.8 million

    The acquisition of Gay is the most exaggerated example in the Raptors’ recent run of adding counterproductive contracts, but Gay’s cap hit is only so painful because of all that came before it. Lucrative extensions for the Bryan Colangelo-drafted Bargnani and DeRozan form the basis of the Raptors’ cap problems, while two flubbed mid-level signings (Linas Kleiza and Fields) only serve to exacerbate the gloomy outlook. Add it all up and you’re looking at a team that’s over the projected cap line through 2015, may pay the luxury tax in 2014 and is far from a contender. We have yet to see what Colangelo might get in a potential deal centered on Bargnani, but even a financially beneficial deal would leave the Raptors in more or less the same place, with a potential new deal for Kyle Lowry looming in 2014.

    Gay’s contract alone would be tough for any team to handle, much less one so early in its team-building cycle. The Raptors didn’t have all of their core pieces in place, and now they’re left with that same, underwhelming foundation, a massive contract eating up much of their cap and hopes for the future pinned to Gay, DeRozan, raw big man Jonas Valanciunas and rookie wing Terrence Ross. There are worse places for a team to be, but that group — and the Raptors’ cap reality — don’t bode well for Toronto’s upward mobility.

    http://nba.si.com/2013/03/06/worst-n...2_a6&eref=sihp

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    Nothing really new for Raps fan, who have long moaned about the cap hits associated with Demar's extension, Fields and Bargnani in general, and the Gay deal was widely known as an over-pay since the day he signed the extension.

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    Amir's contract used to be in these lists. I think most Raptors fans now believe it's pretty reasonable for what he brings. I expect we're going to believe the same about DeRoazan's.

    The other three, we'll see.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie blz's Avatar
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    why is derozan in the list....still under his rookie contract.....i say we have the best contract in derozan seeing his development this year

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote blz wrote: View Post
    why is derozan in the list....still under his rookie contract.....i say we have the best contract in derozan seeing his development this year
    His extension has been finalized, so it gets blended together with this last year remaining on his old contract. All those contracts listed above include the 2012-13 season and future seasons.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    The article by SI.com is entitled "Most Problematic Contracts", not "Worst Value Contracts".
    I think theres a HUGE difference there.
    Last edited by Joey; Wed Mar 6th, 2013 at 07:04 PM.
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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    to put it into perspective

    Amir was considered over payed by everyone in the sports media - now people won't shut up about what a steal he is at 6 million

    DeMar was grossly overpaid according to every analyst in the league. As of right now he is playing up to the contract and will only get better. Two years out barring injury I bet we wonder how it is we got such a quality two for so cheap.

    Bargnani - I got nothing here.

    Fields - If he gets his shit together over the summer. Rests, finally gets that elbow right (it still isn't) 6 million for a two way player that can stuff multiple stat categories and guard 3 positions will again seem like a steal.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    The article by SI.com is entitled "Most Problematic Contracts", not "Worst Value Contracts".
    I think theres a HUGE difference there.
    Very true. I was rushing to post since my boss was on his way over

    They also reference it as the "All Overpriced Team" and "Immovable Objects". So not only do we have no cap flexibility for deals, we have 4 deals that are considered immovable. Remind me again how we are going to add talent?

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    woah woah woah...in what alternate reality is derozan's contract (starting next year) in any way 'reasonable' considering his current play/abilities? i'm curious what this 'development' is that people seem so enamoured with.

    maybe i'm wearing blinders, but all i see with DD is a 3rd or 4th fiddle on a mediocre-decent team (which is probably what they are now), and a 6th-7th man (at best) on a contending team. he hasn't improved his long range shooting (and if he's still this bad at this point, chances are, this is who he is), he's still a highly suspect (to put it kindly) defender, and he still has NO HANDLES. not to mention that for all his athleticism, he's still a horrible finisher in traffic - he seems to lack any explosiveness unless he has a running start. so yeah, if he's open coming down the lane & can get a good run into his jump, he can finish (so don't bring up the mozgov most-amazing-dunk-of-all-time). with the ball in the block against any resistence, he doesn't even try to use his hops to get a shot off over even shorter defenders (tells me he's scurred of getting his shot blocked). when he doesn't take two dribbles, look around confused, and pass out, he takes a fadeaway. put anyone between him & the basket, and he appears bewildered as to what to do. and for someone who's such an 'incredible' leaper, boy, does he not mind getting out of the way when he's the last/only guy back defending on a break.

    i'm sorry, but if you're a fan of this team, and you've watched DD play this year and for his tenure in TO, and you're happy with his contract going forward...i honestly don't know what to say. of course, gay's contract almost makes DD's reasonable, so...YAY RAPTORS!

    gawd, i hope i'm wrong about him. REVERSE JINX REVERSE JINX REVERSE JINX!!!!!!!!!!
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    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    The reality of the NBA is that there aren't enough superstars to go around. That leads to teams spending big on guys who don't necessarily warrant max deals, but get them due to market conditions, creating these "worst value" contracts.

    Until the Raptors acquire / discover / develop a superstar player, we're always going to hear about how "they've overpaid for mediocre talent and we have no financial flexibility". It's a valid point, sure, but there's not a whole lot that can be done about it, other than hoping that Derozan lives up to his contract and Fields gets his shit together.

    We went through this whole experience with the Amir contract, too. I'm willing to have some patience.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    I'm really not sure why these guys keep writing about cap flexibility and counterproductivity when there are so many factors that need to be considered. training camp, practices, rookie year, middle of the season acquisition, injuries, rotation, new system, 2nd year coach, how come nobody writes about these things when it comes to the raptors struggles?

    i mean if you compare this team to miami, okc, spurs, clippers - the obvious is glaring. this team has had at least 3-4 new players in the rotation every single year for the past 3-4 years. how can you expect consistency? chemistry? and now these guys are asking for cap flexibility so the team can add new players year after year again? i think the core of lowry, demar, ross, JV, Gay, Amir, Fields looks promising. all they need is one legit starting PF, a solid PG backup and other role players and theyre good to go. get that core together and stick with it.

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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    I'm really not sure why these guys keep writing about cap flexibility and counterproductivity when there are so many factors that need to be considered. training camp, practices, rookie year, middle of the season acquisition, injuries, rotation, new system, 2nd year coach, how come nobody writes about these things when it comes to the raptors struggles?

    i mean if you compare this team to miami, okc, spurs, clippers - the obvious is glaring. this team has had at least 3-4 new players in the rotation every single year for the past 3-4 years. how can you expect consistency? chemistry? and now these guys are asking for cap flexibility so the team can add new players year after year again? i think the core of lowry, demar, ross, JV, Gay, Amir, Fields looks promising. all they need is one legit starting PF, a solid PG backup and other role players and theyre good to go. get that core together and stick with it.
    Chemistry is over-rated over-all. Chemistry is only an important factor when comparing elite championship level teams playing a 7 game series. For teams like the Raps, chemistry isn't going to be the difference, talent is.

    As for consistency, it doesn't matter if it's their first season, 10th season, or first day on the job, they are professional athletes and are expected to perform consistently. Now a rookie is expected to have a learning curve and growth, but I don't think consistency of a roster is necessary for consistency on the court for the level of play the Raptors are at. If they were in the top seed discussion, then yeah, worry about the constant roster flux, but at this point, the team doesn't have enough talent to worry about that.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    The reality of the NBA is that there aren't enough superstars to go around. That leads to teams spending big on guys who don't necessarily warrant max deals, but get them due to market conditions, creating these "worst value" contracts.

    Until the Raptors acquire / discover / develop a superstar player, we're always going to hear about how "they've overpaid for mediocre talent and we have no financial flexibility". It's a valid point, sure, but there's not a whole lot that can be done about it, other than hoping that Derozan lives up to his contract and Fields gets his shit together.

    We went through this whole experience with the Amir contract, too. I'm willing to have some patience.
    Bold 1 - However, teams aren't obligated to give out those contracts, nor are teams obligated to take on those contracts (ie. trade for them) after they've been signed. A limited supply of the 'best' doesn't justify placing an excessive demand on the rest. Its justifying spending a fortune on ground beef because all the fillet mignon is sold out.


    Bold 2 - first off and most importantly there WAS something that could have been done about it. Not sign them or take them on in the first place. Besides, there is something the team could do about it. Try their best to dump them or get rid of them and start over. Now I'll admit, that may not be realistic (or easy even), given what Colangelo has been trying to do, but it is an option.


    Just to touch on Amir. I see a few people have mentioned his contract looked bad when it was signed and its playing out differently. But there is a significant difference. The stats actually said it was a fair deal, as opposed to the other deals that have (Bargnani, Fields, Kleiza, Derozan, Gay) which say the exact opposite.
    Last edited by Craiger; Thu Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:24 AM.

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Chemistry is over-rated over-all. Chemistry is only an important factor when comparing elite championship level teams playing a 7 game series. For teams like the Raps, chemistry isn't going to be the difference, talent is.

    As for consistency, it doesn't matter if it's their first season, 10th season, or first day on the job, they are professional athletes and are expected to perform consistently. Now a rookie is expected to have a learning curve and growth, but I don't think consistency of a roster is necessary for consistency on the court for the level of play the Raptors are at. If they were in the top seed discussion, then yeah, worry about the constant roster flux, but at this point, the team doesn't have enough talent to worry about that.
    Unfortunately, a team like the Raptors dont get that many opportunities to get elite talent. With Lowry, Demar, Gay, JV, Amir, Ross you have enough talent, mixed with chemistry and consistency, there is potential to be good. Chemistry is not over rated but rather hard to to achieve. lakers are oozing of talent but have no chemistry, 9th in the west. spurs have arguably only one elite talent, but has superb chemistry, numerous championships.

    true, but basketball is 5 on 5, doesnt matter how talented you are, when you pass the ball to a teammate, you have no control as to what he's going to do, but if you have chemistry, you at least are confident and aware that you can pass him the ball at the moment and spot when he can make the most out of it.

    how much more "talent" do you think this team needs? I think a legit starting PF and solid PG backup should be enough.

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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Unfortunately, a team like the Raptors dont get that many opportunities to get elite talent. With Lowry, Demar, Gay, JV, Amir, Ross you have enough talent, mixed with chemistry and consistency, there is potential to be good. Chemistry is not over rated but rather hard to to achieve. lakers are oozing of talent but have no chemistry, 9th in the west. spurs have arguably only one elite talent, but has superb chemistry, numerous championships.

    true, but basketball is 5 on 5, doesnt matter how talented you are, when you pass the ball to a teammate, you have no control as to what he's going to do, but if you have chemistry, you at least are confident and aware that you can pass him the ball at the moment and spot when he can make the most out of it.
    how much more "talent" do you think this team needs? I think a legit starting PF and solid PG backup should be enough.
    I disagree with the bold in the sense that when you have chemistry you know what the other player is going to do with it. If you have talent, then you know that he can make the most of it. Right now, if Demar passes to Bargnani on the wing, then he knows what is going to happen, and it certainly isn't going to the "most of it".

    A legit starting PF would change everything, but I don't yet see how they acquire one to that level. They have no 1st round pick, no financial flexibility and no real movable assets (unless they decide to deal Ross), so I don't think we will get a 'legit' PF. They can probably find an option for that role, but the 'legit' aspect is harder to acquire (or guage).

    I also agree that they need a real back-up PG. Lowry's injury history alone should be enough of a reason, but the fact is the drop-off to JL3 is devastating and people still aren't sold on KL.

    I think over-all, the team's talent make-up is something like this:
    PG: Good, terrible, ?: Lowry, JL3, Telfair
    SG: Slightly below avg, ?, ?: Demar, Ross, AA
    SF: Very good, below avg, terrible: Gay, Fields, Kleiza
    PF: below average, ?: Amir, Bargs
    C: ?, scrub: JV, Gray

    Demar has room to grow still, but I'm doubtful he will be a 'legit' starter. Ross is a huge difference maker for this franchise as either trade bait for a PF or the answer at SG. Fields can be a good player, but it's more intelligence than talent. He needs good players around him to play well. Amir is a nice guy but not a starter. Who knows what we have in Bargnani? JV is the pillar of hope, but again is a huge question mark.

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Bold 1 - However, teams aren't obligated to give out those contracts, nor are teams obligated to take on those contracts (ie. trade for them) after they've been signed. A limited supply of the 'best' doesn't justify placing an excessive demand on the rest. Its justifying spending a fortune on ground beef because all the fillet mignon is sold out.


    Bold 2 - first off and most importantly there WAS something that could have been done about it. Not sign them or take them on in the first place. Besides, there is something the team could do about it. Try their best to dump them or get rid of them and start over. Now I'll admit, that may not be realistic (or easy even), given what Colangelo has been trying to do, but it is an option.


    Just to touch on Amir. I see a few people have mentioned his contract looked bad when it was signed and its playing out differently. But there is a significant difference. The stats actually said it was a fair deal, as opposed to the other deals that have (Bargnani, Fields, Kleiza, Derozan, Gay) which say the exact opposite.
    True. But in the Raptors case, they have to do something, or else, get buried again in rebuilding mode. Although they drafted 2 good young players, doesnt seem like any of those 2 will become elite talent. And you cant fault BC or any of the coaching staff for that. And then they were able to acquire a high calibre PG in Lowry, who will no doubt walk if the team does not show improvement with its roster. So what can you do? Like what white men cant jump said, for a team like the Raptors, you have no choice but to overpay to get talent, so you can keep the talent that you have. People can talk about flexibility until theyre blue in the face, but when there's no opportunity to use that flexibility, what good is it?

    With Amir, IMO, when he signed that contract in 2010 he was definitely overpaid. But the Raptors were not thinking of his current worth, but rather his potential and what he will be capable of doing down the road. And IMO, they were right with their analysis. With Amir's improvement and what he brings to the team, 6.5mil is just about right.

    It was the same situation when Memphis gave Gay his contract. If BC is still going to extend Gay with the same or higher contract, then thats the time i think he's gone nuts.

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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    True. But in the Raptors case, they have to do something, or else, get buried again in rebuilding mode. Although they drafted 2 good young players, doesnt seem like any of those 2 will become elite talent. And you cant fault BC or any of the coaching staff for that. And then they were able to acquire a high calibre PG in Lowry, who will no doubt walk if the team does not show improvement with its roster. So what can you do? Like what white men cant jump said, for a team like the Raptors, you have no choice but to overpay to get talent, so you can keep the talent that you have. People can talk about flexibility until theyre blue in the face, but when there's no opportunity to use that flexibility, what good is it?

    With Amir, IMO, when he signed that contract in 2010 he was definitely overpaid. But the Raptors were not thinking of his current worth, but rather his potential and what he will be capable of doing down the road. And IMO, they were right with their analysis. With Amir's improvement and what he brings to the team, 6.5mil is just about right.

    It was the same situation when Memphis gave Gay his contract. If BC is still going to extend Gay with the same or higher contract, then thats the time i think he's gone nuts.

    Except they never should have left rebuilding mode in the first place, there was no reason to and nothing indicated that the Raps were ready to.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Except they never should have left rebuilding mode in the first place, there was no reason to and nothing indicated that the Raps were ready to.
    True. But how long do you ride this rebuilding mode? BC has gone through 6(?) top 10 picks and none of them turned out to be franchise players. How many more high picks should the team go through? Another 10? 20? BC is also an employee too. He's working for a paycheck just like everybody else. Its easy for us fans to say keeping getting high picks every year but for BC, when he's drafting high picks and still the team is a bottom feeder, what would that say about your performance? Mind you if Durant didnt turn out to be the way he is now, Presti would not be with OKC right now. And i can bet you that even Presti could not have predicted that Durant will be the player he is now. He was hoping. If he was given the chance to trade that 2nd pick for a legit superstar, he probably would have.

    i think the timing to ditch the rebuilding mode was fine. BC has acquired pieces in the draft that, although not elite, can be a staple component of a good team (Demar, JV and Ross). Lowry, Gay are the leaders and Amir and Fields are the main role players. 1-2 major pieces more and IMO, a solid, playoff team.

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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    True. But how long do you ride this rebuilding mode? BC has gone through 6(?) top 10 picks and none of them turned out to be franchise players. How many more high picks should the team go through? Another 10? 20? BC is also an employee too. He's working for a paycheck just like everybody else. Its easy for us fans to say keeping getting high picks every year but for BC, when he's drafting high picks and still the team is a bottom feeder, what would that say about your performance? Mind you if Durant didnt turn out to be the way he is now, Presti would not be with OKC right now. And i can bet you that even Presti could not have predicted that Durant will be the player he is now. He was hoping. If he was given the chance to trade that 2nd pick for a legit superstar, he probably would have.

    i think the timing to ditch the rebuilding mode was fine. BC has acquired pieces in the draft that, although not elite, can be a staple component of a good team (Demar, JV and Ross). Lowry, Gay are the leaders and Amir and Fields are the main role players. 1-2 major pieces more and IMO, a solid, playoff team.
    I guess you keep going until you find a player to build around. In reality, you cannot stop "rebuilding" if you don't have a player to build a foundation with. Not a single player on this roster is that guy.
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    True. But how long do you ride this rebuilding mode? BC has gone through 6(?) top 10 picks and none of them turned out to be franchise players. How many more high picks should the team go through? Another 10? 20? BC is also an employee too. He's working for a paycheck just like everybody else. Its easy for us fans to say keeping getting high picks every year but for BC, when he's drafting high picks and still the team is a bottom feeder, what would that say about your performance? Mind you if Durant didnt turn out to be the way he is now, Presti would not be with OKC right now. And i can bet you that even Presti could not have predicted that Durant will be the player he is now. He was hoping. If he was given the chance to trade that 2nd pick for a legit superstar, he probably would have.

    i think the timing to ditch the rebuilding mode was fine. BC has acquired pieces in the draft that, although not elite, can be a staple component of a good team (Demar, JV and Ross). Lowry, Gay are the leaders and Amir and Fields are the main role players. 1-2 major pieces more and IMO, a solid, playoff team.
    I'd ask, how quickly does one expect a rebuild to take place?

    "Rebuilding" didn't start until into the the 2010/11 season - and the Raps were out of it by the end of the 2012 season. Thats not even 2 years. I'd expect a team being willing to spend more time than that.

    Yes the Raps had alot of other 'bad' seasons, but those weren't rebuilding. Those were worse than mediocre seasons, and arguably a result of Colangelo being unwilling to rebuild (and making decisions similar to this year. ie. overspending, trading away picks etc).

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Bold 1 - However, teams aren't obligated to give out those contracts, nor are teams obligated to take on those contracts (ie. trade for them) after they've been signed. A limited supply of the 'best' doesn't justify placing an excessive demand on the rest. Its justifying spending a fortune on ground beef because all the fillet mignon is sold out.
    .
    +Infinity & 1 gazbillion Facebook likes.

    Somebody hire an airplane banner and fly this over BC's office until he gets it or he's gone. GMs like BC are why we have lockouts and ticket prices are so high.

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