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Thread: Article: NBA's "Most Problematic Contracts" - Bill Simmons w/ more Evidence Post #30

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter phez's Avatar
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    so early in its team-building cycle
    little do they know we have been rebuilding for the past 6 years!

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Bold 1 - However, teams aren't obligated to give out those contracts, nor are teams obligated to take on those contracts (ie. trade for them) after they've been signed. A limited supply of the 'best' doesn't justify placing an excessive demand on the rest. Its justifying spending a fortune on ground beef because all the fillet mignon is sold out.


    Bold 2 - first off and most importantly there WAS something that could have been done about it. Not sign them or take them on in the first place. Besides, there is something the team could do about it. Try their best to dump them or get rid of them and start over. Now I'll admit, that may not be realistic (or easy even), given what Colangelo has been trying to do, but it is an option.


    Just to touch on Amir. I see a few people have mentioned his contract looked bad when it was signed and its playing out differently. But there is a significant difference. The stats actually said it was a fair deal, as opposed to the other deals that have (Bargnani, Fields, Kleiza, Derozan, Gay) which say the exact opposite.

    Re: Point 1 - Yes, I agree with you here. However, history has shown us that they have, and continue to do so. Perhaps the new CBA will start to change these things.

    Re: Point 2 - I was talking about us as fans. Not much that we can do about the decisions that have been made.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Rookie meductic's Avatar
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    To start both Kobe and Dirk are on the list so a bit of perspective. Secondly no matter what you think of DeRozen it is hard to argue that he is not continuing to improve so I would argue that the jury is still out on his contract. It may be Bargs, but hopefully it will be Amir, and probably will be somewhere in between. Fields will probably never live up to his payroll due to a stupid idea that could have ended a lot worse (imagine overpaying for both him and an aging Nash). Klieza will be amnestied. This will cost the owners but not the clubs flexibility. Needless to say the Bargnani ship can only be righted if they can get something for him. I am the first to say his whole career has been a bad idea gone wrong but with him playing and posting his all time worst numbers don't you have to keep playing him until he at least resembles his former underwhelming self. Gay... a lot to like but more and more signs of suspect bang for the buck. No one else will offer him max going forward and the CBA appears to have finally curbed salaries. Which leads me to ask can anyone explain to me ( other than Doug Smith ) why Coangelo continues to trade away draft picks?

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Chemistry is over-rated over-all. Chemistry is only an important factor when comparing elite championship level teams playing a 7 game series. For teams like the Raps, chemistry isn't going to be the difference, talent is.
    As for consistency, it doesn't matter if it's their first season, 10th season, or first day on the job, they are professional athletes and are expected to perform consistently. Now a rookie is expected to have a learning curve and growth, but I don't think consistency of a roster is necessary for consistency on the court for the level of play the Raptors are at. If they were in the top seed discussion, then yeah, worry about the constant roster flux, but at this point, the team doesn't have enough talent to worry about that.
    I would disagree, but in this case, or this roster, it's true. Chemistry is great, but lack the surrounding talent.

  5. #25
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    Quote coastal wrote: View Post
    Amir's contract used to be in these lists. I think most Raptors fans now believe it's pretty reasonable for what he brings. I expect we're going to believe the same about DeRoazan's.

    The other three, we'll see.
    +1

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    Signing bad contrats isn't a great thing to do obviously but what this whole ongoing argument fails to EVER mention is that a) no contract is untradeable (See Turkoglu, Hedo) and b) being a shit team and refusing to pay for talent does not equal becoming OKC (see Sacramento, LAC before CP3, Minnesota etc.). In fact the tank argument is really just a blind gamble banking on getting the top choice in a stacked draft who then actually fulfills his talent, doesn't get hurt AND you're able to attract FAs going forward. Even with a once in a generation player (like, say, Lebron) you don't guarantee anything for your franchise (exactly what top tier FAs did LBJs Cleveland teams ever attract?).

    So lets say you are suffering through 6 years of weak drafts, bad luck, bad choices etc. Is really the best thing to do, year after year, to suck as hard as possible in hopes that the saviour is walking through the door NEXT year? No it's not. You lose fans, you lose any pull with agents and FAs, you lose sponsors and you tarnish your brand.

    Is Gays contract terrible? Yes. Is Andrea a milstone? Yes. So what? Amnesty AB if it comes to that and build around Gay, DD (who is actually earning that poorly timed contract) and Lowry. Those three represent the three best players this franchise has had under contract in more than a decade. A lot of things need to get figured out by the brass, the coaching staff and the players to realize that talent but it's there. You simply cannot put frugality as the number one concern unless the draft is what really gets you going.

    Worst contract in the NBA is Kobe by a country mile. It's eating up a third of their cap space and will get worse for 2 more years. Sure Kobe is putting up numbers on offence but he's a pretty shoddy defender these days, plays largely inefficient basketball, injuries and age have slowed down his first step and reduced his vertical and he's only gotten HARDER to be a teammate of. You think chemistry is overrated? Look at the Lake Show. They have zero chemistry. Howard pouts, Kobe bristles, Nash is lost, Gasol has been totally dissed... whoa tangent, sorry. All I'm saying is that cap space is as much a false hope as is tanking. we had all kinds of cap space the past few years and for what? To watch Gary fucking Forbes and Rasual fricking Butler? Gimme an overpaid Rudy Gay ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

    And twice on Sundays.
    LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    woah woah woah...in what alternate reality is derozan's contract (starting next year) in any way 'reasonable' considering his current play/abilities? i'm curious what this 'development' is that people seem so enamoured with.

    maybe i'm wearing blinders, but all i see with DD is a 3rd or 4th fiddle on a mediocre-decent team (which is probably what they are now), and a 6th-7th man (at best) on a contending team. he hasn't improved his long range shooting (and if he's still this bad at this point, chances are, this is who he is), he's still a highly suspect (to put it kindly) defender, and he still has NO HANDLES. not to mention that for all his athleticism, he's still a horrible finisher in traffic - he seems to lack any explosiveness unless he has a running start. so yeah, if he's open coming down the lane & can get a good run into his jump, he can finish (so don't bring up the mozgov most-amazing-dunk-of-all-time). with the ball in the block against any resistence, he doesn't even try to use his hops to get a shot off over even shorter defenders (tells me he's scurred of getting his shot blocked). when he doesn't take two dribbles, look around confused, and pass out, he takes a fadeaway. put anyone between him & the basket, and he appears bewildered as to what to do. and for someone who's such an 'incredible' leaper, boy, does he not mind getting out of the way when he's the last/only guy back defending on a break.

    i'm sorry, but if you're a fan of this team, and you've watched DD play this year and for his tenure in TO, and you're happy with his contract going forward...i honestly don't know what to say. of course, gay's contract almost makes DD's reasonable, so...YAY RAPTORS!

    gawd, i hope i'm wrong about him. REVERSE JINX REVERSE JINX REVERSE JINX!!!!!!!!!!
    Did you just perform Inception on me because this is exactly what I was thinking.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  8. #28
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    Quote minks77 wrote: View Post
    Signing bad contrats isn't a great thing to do obviously but what this whole ongoing argument fails to EVER mention is that a) no contract is untradeable (See Turkoglu, Hedo) and b) being a shit team and refusing to pay for talent does not equal becoming OKC (see Sacramento, LAC before CP3, Minnesota etc.). In fact the tank argument is really just a blind gamble banking on getting the top choice in a stacked draft who then actually fulfills his talent, doesn't get hurt AND you're able to attract FAs going forward. Even with a once in a generation player (like, say, Lebron) you don't guarantee anything for your franchise (exactly what top tier FAs did LBJs Cleveland teams ever attract?).
    (a) Horrible contracts are typically tradeable if (1) you package them with something desirable (draft picks or cheap talent for examples) or (2) you accept other undesirable assets in return. There are exceptions of course but in general teams do not get a plus asset for trading just a negative asset.

    Hedo was an exception. Baron Davis was more the norm.

    (b) That one I fully agree with. Tanking in the hope of selecting a franchise player is a very risky proposition. I think it's a fair game if the team sucks one year but repeated use of this "strategy" can alienate the customer base.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    (a) Horrible contracts are typically tradeable if (1) you package them with something desirable (draft picks or cheap talent for examples) or (2) you accept other undesirable assets in return. There are exceptions of course but in general teams do not get a plus asset for trading just a negative asset.

    Hedo was an exception. Baron Davis was more the norm.

    (b) That one I fully agree with. Tanking in the hope of selecting a franchise player is a very risky proposition. I think it's a fair game if the team sucks one year but repeated use of this "strategy" can alienate the customer base.
    To a degree I agree, you gotta sweeten the pot, which BC has no aversion to doing with picks as we've seen but in taking back undesirable assets the mitigating factor is you are generally taking back an undesirable with a silver lining (fits a need or simply has less years). I also don't think Hedo was as much an exception as you posit. Of course the higher the salary (esp. combined with other factors like attitude, injury history etc) the more the BDiddy example becomes the norm.

    My argument stems from the frustration with so many posters who would only build teams of low cost, highly efficient (on paper, per 36m) players only, basically 5 Quincy Acys, and never admit that sometimes you gotta pay for real talent.
    LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Default League's Most Atrocious Contracts

    I think the last time someone posted this the title wasn't consistent with the thread.. this time it is, and it's Bill Simmons.
    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...-contracts-nba

    Here's ours:

    25. Rudy Gay: three years, $53.7 million
    Most fans love the idea of Rudy: 6-foot-8, defends either forward spot, good athlete, unafraid at crunch time, seems like he's good. Nobody wants to accept that he's a horrific shooter — repeat: horrific — who excels at posting up smaller defenders, and that's about it. Math doesn't lie: According to Hoopdata.com, Gay is shooting 25 percent on shots from 16 to 23 feet (the worst percentage of anyone who attempted three-plus shots per game from that range) and 23.3 percent from 3 (the worst percentage of anyone who attempted three-plus 3s per game). In other words, Gay attempts nearly 10 shots per game from more than 15 feet and makes two of them. I stand by "horrific."

    Now, there's an excellent chance that (a) Gay needed a change of scenery, (b) Z-Bo and Marc Gasol clogged the paint and made it more difficult for him to drive to the hoop (there's some truth to that), (c) he's better off playing the 4 and exploiting quickness mismatches there (ŕ la Carmelo) and (d) this trade could still work out for Toronto if Gay ever stops throwing up bricks. But reading Marc Spears's report that Toronto wants to lock up Gay TO AN EXTENSION this summer … I mean … what???? Why not use these last six weeks to make sure he's still competent offensively before broaching that strategy publicly? What's wrong with these teams?
    10. Landry Fields: three years, $18.73 million
    Don't forget, Toronto offered Fields too much money as a strategic ploy. (Not a typo.) They were hoping the Knicks would knock themselves out of the Steve Nash sweepstakes to match the offer, leaving Toronto as Nash's only suitor. Instead, Nash went to the Lakers and New York gleefully stuck Toronto with Fields, making him the Kip Addotta of 2012 free agency (see this column for an explanation). What's the right word for that chain of events? I'm going with "hilarious!" unless you can top it.

    Meanwhile, Fields is turning into the Dave Stapleton of basketball — instead of getting better every year like every other young player, he's somehow getting worse.

    2011: 9.7 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 50% FG, 39% 3FG, 77% FT, 13.5 PER.
    2012: 8.8 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 46% FG, 26% 3FG, 56% FT, 12.1 PER.
    2013: 4.7 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 45% FG, 8% 3FG, 70% FT, 10.2 PER.

    Translation: This is threatening to replace the murder subplot in Season 2 of Friday Night Lights as the most painful story line involving someone named Landry. Stay tuned.
    5. Andrea Bargnani: three years, $33 million
    Player A: 29.2 MPG, 13.0 PPG, 3.7 RPG, 40% FG, 31% 3FG, 11.4 PER.
    Player B: 29.7 MPG, 12.0 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 39% FG, 32% 3FG, 12.4 PER.

    Player A is Bargnani. Player B is Byron Mullens.

    WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO YOU, ANDREA BARGNANI????????

    We didn't even mention his stupefyingly awful defense, or the fact that the Raptors are minus-7.1 points per 100 possessions when Bargnani plays, and plus-0.8 points per 100 possessions when he sits. I hope Phoenix trades for Bargnani and teams him with Beasley.
    Honorable mention since Colangelo gave this contract:

    9. Hedo Turkoglu: two years, $23.8 million
    At least Hedo had the dignity to get suspended for steroids and save Orlando 20 games' pay (about $2.9 million). So that was nice of him. Do you want to make the snarky "I'm sure it was a total coincidence that Dwight Howard's two best teammates from Orlando's improbable 2009 playoff run never played that well again and both ended up getting suspended for PEDs, because there's noooooo waaaaaaaay the NBA has a PED problem" joke, or should I take it? Actually, you have it. I insist.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    At least there's evidence to support that although Gay is the highest paid Raptor, he isn't the worst contract.

    It wasn't the Gay trade that crippled our cap flexibility. It's the gazillions of dollars spent on players who don't do anything (Bargnani, Fields, Kleiza, etc.).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  13. #32
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    At least there's evidence to support that although Gay is the highest paid Raptor, he isn't the worst contract.

    It wasn't the Gay trade that crippled our cap flexibility. It's the gazillions of dollars spent on players who don't do anything (Bargnani, Fields, Kleiza, etc.).
    Ya the Kleiza deal is the one that hurts. Fields still has a chance to work to make his contract less stupid.
    Kleiza is only working on making his worse.
    In Masai we Trust.

  14. #33
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Lets face it folks, most NBA contracts are over-valued these days, and you can thank James and the Heat for that. The reality is that Lebron's departure from Cleveland and subsequent team-up with Wade and Bosh in Miami has increased the value of just about every free agent out there, especially any decent free agent that may have multiple suitors in the summer. If you wanna compete with top tier teams on the court, then you have to compete with these teams (and those wanting to chase them) in the free agent market. So if you wanna keep a guy, you may have to match a crazy offer sheet for restricted guys, or offer a crazy contract to the unrestricted ones. If you don't, another GM will. So its risky business, and the result is a lot of teams have overpaid players.

    So, combine this with the fact that TO is limited in it's ability to attract free agents, and you can understand the difficulty that BC has in building a team here.

    Is Joe Johnson a max guy? Josh Smith? Andrew Bynum? Is Gasol worth 18m/yr, Gay worth 17m/yr, Boozer worth his 16 or 17 or whatever he is getting? Probably not, but if you want any of these types of guys on your team, you'll have to pay them a premium.

    Alot of posters are claiming that the Raps need an upgrade in the PF position, and I tend to agree, but I kinda feel bad about it. If we could get JSmooth, would you take him? Lets compare him to Amir...

    Amir: 10.1 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 1.5 APG, 1.3 BPG, 1.0 SPG, 1.4 TO, while shooting 57% FG and 70% FT in 27.9 MPG.
    Smith: 17.3 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 4.3 APG, 1.9 BPG, 1.2 SPG, 3.1 TO, while shooting 45.7% FG and 49.6% FT in 35.9 MPG.

    Now, if we add 8 MPG to Amir's averages (to bring him up to Smith's average playing time), his "adjusted" stats look like this:

    13 PPG, 9.4 RPG, 1.9 APG, 1.6 BPG, 1.28 SPG, 1.8 TO, while being much more efficient.

    Now Amir's contract, thought to be absurd at the time, looks incredible if, indeed, JSmooth is a max guy (i don't believe he is, but he will very likely get it). And considering Amir isn't even a go to guy offensively, the Raps are getting incredible value for Amir's performance on the court.

    Probably not the best example for this tread from a Raps perspective as most fans think the world of Amir, and rightfully so. But it is a good example of how middle to top tier guys get more than they deserve in a climate where teams are scramling to load up on talent in order to compete on the floor with the Heat, Thunder etc. There are exceptions of course (Denver and Indiana), but realistically, how far will these teams go come playoff time. I am certain they will fall to talent loaded teams, much to my disappointment.

    In any event, the point is that mediocre players can get fat contracts in todays NBA. Gay is paid like an elite player, but he is not. Neither is Joe Johnson and neither is Josh Smith or Boozer, but demand is greater than the supply of talent and there you have it. As for Bargnani's contract, he is certainly overpaid and will no doubt take a huge paycut when it comes time to sign another contract. Bargnani has low BB IQ, shows little interest in competing, is an overrated shooter, and drags the team down. The raps should trade him for a new towel boy.

    8 mil a year for Derozan is not that bad as far as I'm concerned. Yes, he has weaknesses, but they are weaknesses he can overcome if he is properly motivated. Don't tell me he can't improve his jumpshot, don't tell me can't improve his lateral movement to keep guys in front of him. He can, and I believe he will improve in these respects. And if he does, 8 mil will certainly look like a steal as well.

    As for Fields, well he doesnt play much so yeah, he is overpaid. Although his role on the team certainly changed with the Gay acquisition and as such does not get many minutes so its hard to be critical here. Furthermore, Gay wasnt in the picture when Fields was signed so BC may have went all in, so to speak, in order to deter any other potential suitors (speculative). I don't doubt that Fields can be traded in the summer if need be, 6 mil/yr isnt that great a deterent for teams in need of a decent swingman.

    Anyways, the raps problems arent with contracts or talent, but with the way they play basketball. If they played a better [B]team[B] game, they would have much more success and probably fighting for 6, 7, or 8 seed in the playoffs. Too much ISO, not enough off the ball movement and inside-outside ball movement. They can't score like the Thunder, and they should work the ball around the court so that Rudy and Demar aren't taking so many tough, contested shots. No wonder they're percentages are so low.

    My first post...GO Raps!!

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  16. #34
    Raptors Republic Rookie OldSchool's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Chemistry is over-rated over-all. Chemistry is only an important factor when comparing elite championship level teams playing a 7 game series. For teams like the Raps, chemistry isn't going to be the difference, talent is.

    As for consistency, it doesn't matter if it's their first season, 10th season, or first day on the job, they are professional athletes and are expected to perform consistently. Now a rookie is expected to have a learning curve and growth, but I don't think consistency of a roster is necessary for consistency on the court for the level of play the Raptors are at. If they were in the top seed discussion, then yeah, worry about the constant roster flux, but at this point, the team doesn't have enough talent to worry about that.
    I don't think chemistry is over-rated at all. A talented team is one thing. A talented team with chemistry can (and usually does) bring that team to a whole new level - it doesn't matter what team we're talking about. How does the saying go? " you'll notice that mistakes happen the most when you're so worried about making them". A team with chemistry is a team playing loose, having fun and letting things come naturally - how can this be over-rated? Anyone in team sports knows this.
    Also, chemistry is so much more than just being confident that the person you've just passed the ball to is going to do the right thing. Great chemistry usually means efficiency on EVERY aspect has been maxed out or as high as it can be with the type of players on the floor.
    The GLoveinRapsUniform is right and his example of the Lakers 'oozing' with talent, yet with no chemistry they're stinking up the courts is a good one. I autimatically thought of the Pistons of 2004 with no superstar talent yet everyone knew their roles, played their roles so well that it, in turn, helped the next man with his role. Now Im not saying that talent isn't important (infact its necessary) but chemistry can NEVER be over-rated. GloveInRapsUniform is also correct in pointing out the constant change in personnel on this team over the last 3-4 years has prevented any real chemistry, I agree, however with that said, I still think this team needs a few more minor tweaks and changes to put us where we need to be.

  17. #35
    Raptors Republic Rookie OldSchool's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    At least there's evidence to support that although Gay is the highest paid Raptor, he isn't the worst contract.

    It wasn't the Gay trade that crippled our cap flexibility. It's the gazillions of dollars spent on players who don't do anything (Bargnani, Fields, Kleiza, etc.).
    +1 amen

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