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Thread: Why is everyone so mad?

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Default Why is everyone so mad?

    Our record since aquiring Rudy Gay: 8-7. Above 0.500, with notable wins against the Knicks (twice) and Denver. That's not bad for losing your starting point guard and adding a player who has immediately become the focus of the offense mid-season. Yet everything I read is about how bad we are now, how the team is flawed and aquiring Gay was stupid for financial reasons, because you know how we totally could have gotten a better, cheaper, wing in a different deal . The truth is, we are still a much much better team with him on the roster and trading an expiring Jose and Ed Davis for a top 10 small forward is a good move.

    A lot of people seem to be upset over the fact that this signals the rebuilding throught the draft part is over, and to them I ask: what did you think was going to happen when we traded our pick for Lowry? That we were going to tank for no pick, just so we could tank even better next year? Rediculousness. Brian Colangelo, for better or worse, picked up 2 young borderline all-stars for Ed Davis, a pick, and an expiring Jose and it's hard to say that's a bad move.

    Did it suck that we went on a losing streak and lost our shot at the playoffs? Absolutley, and it shows that this team needs to toughen up mentally, because those losses were the product of bad decisions and streaky play. Maybe we need a new coach or maybe we just need more time as a team. Regardless, we finally have a star wing player, something everyone on these forums has wanted for years now. We have a solid shooting guard in Demar and n matter what you think of him, he'd start on all but a few teams in this league. Amir Johnson has looked phenominal and has basically played like his contract says he should, Jonas is every bit as impressive as anticipated, Kyle Lowry is very very good, and Terrance Ross...well he one the dunk contest! Point is, this is the best Raptor team we fielded since 2007 and regardless of our record at the end of this year, things are actually looking good in Raptor land.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    because Raptor fans (most of them) only see the negative and blow it out of proportion things are actually on the rise since the Gay trade and all they do is bitch and moan, about some players not being Larry Bird/LBJ/Kevin Durant efficient.

    The team is building after a long time and we have pieces that look to be a great core which will be on the upside, the pessimism of fans I find very disturbing and irksome.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    For me, as long as Colangelo is here I have a real hard time seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. I just see the organization running place while he is in charge. It isn't a knock on the players that are here and I will still watch pretty much every game and follow the team religiously but I ain't getting too excited about a 23-win team run by a man who has failed miserably in Toronto for almost a decade.

    I appreciate the optimism of many Raps fans and I hope you guys are right and I am wrong. But I've cheered for this team long enough to know not to wander out on that ledge.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    My biggest disappointment is that in a building (or whatever the current franchise buzzword de jour is) season, when playoffs were always considered a long shot, why have the young players (Valanciunas & Ross) seen so little playing time? Why are worthless veterans and/or players not likely to be with the team long-term (ie: Anderson, Lucas, Bargnani) getting so much playing time instead? How is this possibly in the best developmental interests of the team?


    Lowry trade
    - I was/am fine with it and missing the playoffs this year is the best possible resolution to the conditional 1st round pick (the uncertainty is removed, the trade is completed and future 1st round picks once again become tradeable assets)

    Gay trade
    - I was/am fine with it

    Young & talented core (ages as of Nov.1/13 - start of next season)
    - C: Valanciunas (21)
    - PF: Johnson (26)
    - SF: Gay (27)
    - SG: DeRozan (24)
    - SG: Ross (22)
    - SG: Fields (25)
    - PG: Lowry (27)

    Bargnani
    - needs to be traded, for the benefit of the team and himself, to have a fresh start


    The one concern I have is that I hope management (BC) doesn't feel satisfied about this team yet. I still think there are several issues that need to be addressed, but the team's cap situation will make it quite challenging to do so.

    1. Starting PF
    - I think Johnson is a great heart & hustle guy, but he's ideally suited to be the backup PF / 3rd big
    - even if Kleiza/Bargnani were amnestied, the best the team could do in free agency is MLE, meaning the only way left to acquire a legit starting PF is via trade/S&T (Bargnani is the logical, ideal trade option, but is such a trade likely in all honesty?)
    - if Bargnani can't net the desired quality of starting PF, what other trade options are available? DeRozan is the only other option I can come up with, based on the combination of talent & salary that would be required to satisfy both the other team and the CBA; but would that be a good, bad or sideways trade??

    2. backup PG
    - regardless whether a team goes with a primary rotation of 8, 9 or 10 players, a good backup PG is a necessity
    - I don't think Lucas is a good enough floor general to get the most out of a young, inexperienced 2nd unit
    - if Telfair played every game the way he did against Phoenix, he could be a potential in-house solution

    3. backup C
    - Valanciunas is still incredibly raw, despite the flashes of brilliance, so a good veteran backup C would be a great addition
    - if Gray uses his player option then he's on the team, but I would prefer an upgrade, leaving Gray as the 3rd C (better yet, he doesn't pickup his option and tries his luck elsewhere)



    I don't think people are "mad", but rather feeling a combination of disappointment about this season and tempered enthusiasm for next season, knowing that there's still significant work to be done in order to become a legit playoff contender. On top of that, I think it's just a matter of us all being so passionate about our Raptors!
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Mar 8th, 2013 at 04:53 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    My biggest disappointment is that in a building (or whatever the current franchise buzzword de jour is) season, when playoffs were always considered a long shot, why have the young players (ie: Valanciunas, Ross) seen so little playing time? Why are worthless veterans and/or players not likely to be with the team long-term (ie: Anderson, Lucas, Bargnani) getting so much playing time instead? How is this possibly in the best developmental interests of the team?
    My theory here has always been that Casey and Colangelo sat down at the beginning of the year and said something to the effect of, "Play Jonas 15-30 minutes a game, regardless of circumstance, in situations where he can succeed and play through his mistakes. Keep him out of the game in the crunch because it will hurt his confidence if he costs us a game." I'm not saying that this plan makes sense but I think it is almost definatley what happened and you'll likely see more Jonas next season. Basically they are taking an approach similar to the one they used with Derozan, play him 20 minutes a game in situations where he can succeed and guard NBA quality centers while not putting him in situations that could hurt his personallity.

    Ross hit the rookie wall about a month ago and has had plenty of minutes this year to get his feet wet. I think Casey has done a good job of benching him when he makes bad decisions or doesn't bring the effort.

    I agree with almost everything else accept I'm not as worried about finding a starting Powerforward. We have 3 guys who need lots of shots in Gay, DD, and Lowry so I think what you need at the 4 is a good defender and rebouder, which Amir gives you in spades. An upgrade would be nice, but I think back up point is a bigger concern unless Telfair plays better than expected.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    My biggest annoyance is the insistence of people that the Raptors should continue its "full rebuilding", follow the OKC path to success. I think the team has gone through way too many loses, too many drafts and too many off-seasons without making a major change that can actually bring forth wins because theyre worried about "financial flexibility" and all that mumbo jumbo. As a fan, i want to see wins now. Its not like Seattle or the Kings where the team already reached the Western Conference finals, they can tank and lose season after season to get high picks and at the same time not jeopardize financial flexibility. The Raptors has only a 2nd round playoff apprearance to show for. So if it means locking up Gay, Lowry and a star PF in the offseason while risking financial flexibility then so be it. There's a higher chance of success already knowing what your players can do, rather than taking your chances on the draft.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    My theory here has always been that Casey and Colangelo sat down at the beginning of the year and said something to the effect of, "Play Jonas 15-30 minutes a game, regardless of circumstance, in situations where he can succeed and play through his mistakes. Keep him out of the game in the crunch because it will hurt his confidence if he costs us a game." I'm not saying that this plan makes sense but I think it is almost definatley what happened and you'll likely see more Jonas next season. Basically they are taking an approach similar to the one they used with Derozan, play him 20 minutes a game in situations where he can succeed and guard NBA quality centers while not putting him in situations that could hurt his personallity.

    Ross hit the rookie wall about a month ago and has had plenty of minutes this year to get his feet wet. I think Casey has done a good job of benching him when he makes bad decisions or doesn't bring the effort.

    I agree with almost everything else accept I'm not as worried about finding a starting Powerforward. We have 3 guys who need lots of shots in Gay, DD, and Lowry so I think what you need at the 4 is a good defender and rebouder, which Amir gives you in spades. An upgrade would be nice, but I think back up point is a bigger concern unless Telfair plays better than expected.
    I agree and disagree. They need that star PF. When perimeter shots arent going in, you need that back to the basket post up guy to get the momentum to swing to your favor. Slow down the game and get the PF to muscle his way in. Double teams will come and will get your perimeter guys going again. And you need that big body to occupy the paint, specially JV is not that seaonsed yet when it comes to boxing out and clogging the paint.

    I agree that what is being done with JV is pre-meditated. I also believe that they want the OKC pick out of the way. Theyve beaten the Cavs, Wizards and Indiana this season and when the season is on the line, they lose? I have my doubts. And i say this because when Colangelo was interviewed after the Rudy Gay signing and JV was mentioned as part of the future, he said that "my coach got us way too many wins that year" which was obviously saying that he wanted a higher pick than the 5th pick, but happy it turned out they were able to use it on JV. So i have no doubts he does let his coach know that they should aim for certain spots in the standings, and not always send their players out there to get wins.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Fri Mar 8th, 2013 at 05:02 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Our record since aquiring Rudy Gay: 8-7. Above 0.500, with notable wins against the Knicks (twice) and Denver. That's not bad for losing your starting point guard and adding a player who has immediately become the focus of the offense mid-season. Yet everything I read is about how bad we are now, how the team is flawed and aquiring Gay was stupid for financial reasons, because you know how we totally could have gotten a better, cheaper, wing in a different deal . The truth is, we are still a much much better team with him on the roster and trading an expiring Jose and Ed Davis for a top 10 small forward is a good move.

    A lot of people seem to be upset over the fact that this signals the rebuilding throught the draft part is over, and to them I ask: what did you think was going to happen when we traded our pick for Lowry? That we were going to tank for no pick, just so we could tank even better next year? Rediculousness. Brian Colangelo, for better or worse, picked up 2 young borderline all-stars for Ed Davis, a pick, and an expiring Jose and it's hard to say that's a bad move.

    Did it suck that we went on a losing streak and lost our shot at the playoffs? Absolutley, and it shows that this team needs to toughen up mentally, because those losses were the product of bad decisions and streaky play. Maybe we need a new coach or maybe we just need more time as a team. Regardless, we finally have a star wing player, something everyone on these forums has wanted for years now. We have a solid shooting guard in Demar and n matter what you think of him, he'd start on all but a few teams in this league. Amir Johnson has looked phenominal and has basically played like his contract says he should, Jonas is every bit as impressive as anticipated, Kyle Lowry is very very good, and Terrance Ross...well he one the dunk contest! Point is, this is the best Raptor team we fielded since 2007 and regardless of our record at the end of this year, things are actually looking good in Raptor land.
    I think the negativity stems from two issues:

    1) The Raptors got within striking distance of making the playoffs only to serve up 3 big piles of poop in the games to Washington, Cleveland, and Milwaukee. Simultaneously, Milwaukee went out and won 2 huge games on the road in Texas. Not only did the Raptors lose, it was how they lost - from the players to the coaches. There was minimal effort and minimal signs of a plan combined with no signs of execution.

    2) Now that the Raptors are out of the playoffs for all intents and purposes, below average veterans continue to dominate the depth chart leaving two pieces in the supposed core of the future riding the pine (JV and TR) in place of you know who and Method Man.


    I think a third issue might be offered for the negativity as well - but it could also be tied in to #1 - and that is Casey. A lot of his decisions of late have been questioned by the fans and his results this year have been disappointed (record, defense, and rebounding).
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    Keep Calm & Chive On

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    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    My biggest disappointment is that in a building (or whatever the current franchise buzzword de jour is) season, when playoffs were always considered a long shot, why have the young players (Valanciunas & Ross) seen so little playing time? Why are worthless veterans and/or players not likely to be with the team long-term (ie: Anderson, Lucas, Bargnani) getting so much playing time instead? How is this possibly in the best developmental interests of the team?


    Lowry trade
    - I was/am fine with it and missing the playoffs this year is the best possible resolution to the conditional 1st round pick (the uncertainty is removed, the trade is completed and future 1st round picks once again become tradeable assets)

    Gay trade
    - I was/am fine with it

    Young & talented core (ages as of Nov.1/13 - start of next season)
    - C: Valanciunas (21)
    - PF: Johnson (26)
    - SF: Gay (27)
    - SG: DeRozan (24)
    - SG: Ross (22)
    - SG: Fields (25)
    - PG: Lowry (27)

    Bargnani
    - needs to be traded, for the benefit of the team and himself, to have a fresh start


    The one concern I have is that I hope management (BC) doesn't feel satisfied about this team yet. I still think there are several issues that need to be addressed, but the team's cap situation will make it quite challenging to do so.

    1. Starting PF
    - I think Johnson is a great heart & hustle guy, but he's ideally suited to be the backup PF / 3rd big
    - even if Kleiza/Bargnani were amnestied, the best the team could do in free agency is MLE, meaning the only way left to acquire a legit starting PF is via trade/S&T (Bargnani is the logical, ideal trade option, but is such a trade likely in all honesty?)
    - if Bargnani can't net the desired quality of starting PF, what other trade options are available? DeRozan is the only other option I can come up with, based on the combination of talent & salary that would be required to satisfy both the other team and the CBA; but would that be a good, bad or sideways trade??

    2. backup PG
    - regardless whether a team goes with a primary rotation of 8, 9 or 10 players, a good backup PG is a necessity
    - I don't think Lucas is a good enough floor general to get the most out of a young, inexperienced 2nd unit
    - if Telfair played every game the way he did against Phoenix, he could be a potential in-house solution

    3. backup C
    - Valanciunas is still incredibly raw, despite the flashes of brilliance, so a good veteran backup C would be a great addition
    - if Gray uses his player option then he's on the team, but I would prefer an upgrade, leaving Gray as the 3rd C (better yet, he doesn't pickup his option and tries his luck elsewhere)



    I don't think people are "mad", but rather feeling a combination of disappointment about this season and tempered enthusiasm for next season, knowing that there's still significant work to be done in order to become a legit playoff contender. On top of that, I think it's just a matter of us all being so passionate about our Raptors!
    Hyping the players you have no intention of keeping increases their trade value in the off season. It's a savvy fein by BC that I can appreciate.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie OldSchool's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Did it suck that we went on a losing streak and lost our shot at the playoffs? Absolutley, and it shows that this team needs to toughen up mentally, because those losses were the product of bad decisions and streaky play. Maybe we need a new coach or maybe we just need more time as a team. Regardless, we finally have a star wing player, something everyone on these forums has wanted for years now. We have a solid shooting guard in Demar and n matter what you think of him, he'd start on all but a few teams in this league. Amir Johnson has looked phenominal and has basically played like his contract says he should, Jonas is every bit as impressive as anticipated, Kyle Lowry is very very good, and Terrance Ross...well he one the dunk contest! Point is, this is the best Raptor team we fielded since 2007 and regardless of our record at the end of this year, things are actually looking good in Raptor land.
    Actually a big chunk of the Raptors fans are as positive about the future as you are, its just a lot of the negative ones that seem to find themselves on forums like this one. They rant, blow things out of proportion and nitpick about every little thing. I guess years of losing will do that but hey, isn't the purpose for these forums to discuss and vent.

    Anyways, great post.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think the negativity stems from two issues:

    1) The Raptors got within striking distance of making the playoffs only to serve up 3 big piles of poop in the games to Washington, Cleveland, and Milwaukee. Simultaneously, Milwaukee went out and won 2 huge games on the road in Texas. Not only did the Raptors lose, it was how they lost - from the players to the coaches. There was minimal effort and minimal signs of a plan combined with no signs of execution.

    2) Now that the Raptors are out of the playoffs for all intents and purposes, below average veterans continue to dominate the depth chart leaving two pieces in the supposed core of the future riding the pine (JV and TR) in place of you know who and Method Man.


    I think a third issue might be offered for the negativity as well - but it could also be tied in to #1 - and that is Casey. A lot of his decisions of late have been questioned by the fans and his results this year have been disappointed (record, defense, and rebounding).
    This about sums it up for me.

    Especially about casey. I am SO disappointed in his perspective of who he thinks should be playing, when they should play and where they should play.

    I think we are missing out on essential development time for Ross and jval. And his use of gay I think has been really poor (ie he plays him 40 min a night against better teams, has him guard the best players, and tries to run the offense thru him...that's just too much responsibility for gay). And he continues to start bargnani.

    The first 2 points will go away but if this continues next year, It will be even more frustrating.

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    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    Fans are mad because Dwane Casey is mortgaging the future (development of JV, Ross) in order to play "his guys" (Anderson, Gray) in their place. His decision making has been horrendous all season, and probably was last season too but we didn't notice it because we had zero expectations. He has zero ability to construct effective offensive or defensive schemes, and doesn't seem to be able to motivate guys either. He's making me miss having Triano here, for God's sake.

    Personally, I'm not going to be satisfied until the Raptors hire a real coach.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    Hyping the players you have no intention of keeping increases their trade value in the off season. It's a savvy fein by BC that I can appreciate.
    That makes no sense. Anderson is an expiring contract and Lucas has a team option, so they can be let go instead of worrying about having to trade them. They, like Bargnani, are veteran players who are well known throughout the league, so this notion of 'increasing their trade value' is complete nonsense.

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    I am pretty sure that most of the anger lies with Casey's coaching.
    @RavNation

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    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    Fans are mad because Dwane Casey is mortgaging the future (development of JV, Ross) in order to play "his guys" (Anderson, Gray) in their place. His decision making has been horrendous all season, and probably was last season too but we didn't notice it because we had zero expectations. He has zero ability to construct effective offensive or defensive schemes, and doesn't seem to be able to motivate guys either. He's making me miss having Triano here, for God's sake.

    Personally, I'm not going to be satisfied until the Raptors hire a real coach.
    I'll agree with you on the X's and O's part, but not on the motivation part.
    This team is in every game, often against far superior talent. I can count the blowouts this year on one hand. In the Mitchell and Triano years (especially the latter), this team was getting blown out every other game it seemed. Point differential proves my point here. That being said, Casey's questionable substitutions and lack of any offensive playbook are clearly going to prevent this team from achieving any real success. Since no head coach is likely to delegate these responsibilities, I believe a change is necessary.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie robert parrish 00's Avatar
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    Quote YYZ wrote: View Post
    I am pretty sure that most of the anger lies with Casey's coaching.
    You beat me to it!

    Everyone is pissed because it feels like every game we hold a sizable lead going into the 4th, then DC pulls a line up out of his hat and we slowly go on to lose the game.

    BTW you see his line up against the suns when he put out Bassy, JL3, AA (it was the fourth quarter), Landry and JV. Even in garbage time that should never see an NBA floor.

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    were mad because our record has barley improved since last year

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    mad cause we lack character....this team is setting records for 4th quarter breakdowns. How could we not be mad as fans?

    Our team continues to buckle under pressure most of the time.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    Don't forget we had a winning/500 record with Jose starting too. Everyone seems to forget that. It was when Lowry was starting that we went like 2-14 or something.

    Edit: 12-11 with Jose starting.
    Last edited by RaptorsFan4Life; Sun Mar 10th, 2013 at 01:34 AM.

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