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Thread: Welcome to your 2013/2014 Toronto Raptors

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Is Dalembert an option?

  2. #22
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Is Dalembert an option?
    With Davis traded and Bargnani probably on the move, the need should be a starting caliber PF. Dalembert for one is a Center and not starting caliber any more.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Dalembert is not coming to Toronto.

    The Raptors don't really need another centre anyway. Jonas will chew up a lot more minutes next season, Aaron Gray will still be here assuming he doesn't lose his mind and decline his player option, and Amir can always play the 5 in small ball lineups. Considering how little resources the team will have this summer to add new players, I don't expect them to burn them all up on a redundant piece. Plus there's always the Rautins-Dalembert beef from the National team that hangs overhead. I know Leo's a clown and doesn't hold an official title in the organization, but I'm sure he's shared the tales of Dalembert's diva behaviour from that summer with plenty of the front office.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Dalembert is not coming to Toronto.

    The Raptors don't really need another centre anyway. Jonas will chew up a lot more minutes next season, Aaron Gray will still be here assuming he doesn't lose his mind and decline his player option, and Amir can always play the 5 in small ball lineups. Considering how little resources the team will have this summer to add new players, I don't expect them to burn them all up on a redundant piece. Plus there's always the Rautins-Dalembert beef from the National team that hangs overhead. I know Leo's a clown and doesn't hold an official title in the organization, but I'm sure he's shared the tales of Dalembert's diva behaviour from that summer with plenty of the front office.
    Not to mention the fact Dalembert has been a whiner everywhere in the NBA.

    He was not happy in Philly, SAC, HOU, or MIL.

    Earlier this season he was griping over playing time in Milwaukee and hinting about trades from my recollection of HoopsHype.com news bits.

    In my opinion, Dalembert is a guy who puts himself ahead of the team and is always wanting to be a bigger part than his talent and skill set deserve..... again my opinion.
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  5. #25
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    I think the Raptors should package Ross with Bargnani this summer if the return is something good (i.e: a starter quality PF).

    It should be painfully obvious by now that Bargs isn't fetching anything of value by himself and Ross is the team's most desirable trade piece not named JV when you factor in his upside/salary. It always confused me when BC said Ross was "untouchable" in the Gay discussions considering that if the trade went through, Ross would be completely squeezed for minutes. I know a lot of people on the forums are high on him but he may need to be sacrificed if Bargnani is going to be turned into anything tangible.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I think the Raptors should package Ross with Bargnani this summer if the return is something good (i.e: a starter quality PF).

    It should be painfully obvious by now that Bargs isn't fetching anything of value by himself and Ross is the team's most desirable trade piece not named JV when you factor in his upside/salary. It always confused me when BC said Ross was "untouchable" in the Gay discussions considering that if the trade went through, Ross would be completely squeezed for minutes. I know a lot of people on the forums are high on him but he may need to be sacrificed if Bargnani is going to be turned into anything tangible.
    I'd be more inclined to trade DeRozan. But given his contract, it's unknown if he'll draw as much interest as Ross.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Not to mention the fact Dalembert has been a whiner everywhere in the NBA.

    He was not happy in Philly, SAC, HOU, or MIL.

    Earlier this season he was griping over playing time in Milwaukee and hinting about trades from my recollection of HoopsHype.com news bits.

    In my opinion, Dalembert is a guy who puts himself ahead of the team and is always wanting to be a bigger part than his talent and skill set deserve..... again my opinion.
    Not just your opinion...I think the opinion of anybody who has followed his career. Dude is clearly a problem everywhere he goes.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I'd be more inclined to trade DeRozan. But given his contract, it's unknown if he'll draw as much interest as Ross.
    What are you basing your preference for Ross over DD on?

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    What are you basing your preference for Ross over DD on?
    I acknowledge it's a gamble choosing Ross's future "potential" over DeRozan's current production, but I'm just not a fan of DeRozan's game. I prefer Ross's pure athleticism, and hope that his jumper and defense make significant improvements this offseason. This future Ross seems like a much more balanced fit on the wing with Gay. Just my opinion.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote koncept wrote: View Post
    I'm pretty excited to see what this team can do next year with this roster. I'm rarely optimistic at the season start, but next could be an entertaining one at least.

    Also I have the feeling that no matter who we sign at PF, Amir will take back the starting spot next year.
    The little ounce of optimism I had came before the start of this season, and then the team went 4-19. I am not making that mistake again.

    I am going into next season with a 'meh' attitude. I'll only be happy if the Raptors replaced their GM.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote elarmthecity wrote: View Post
    i mean i watched lowry..sure he has passion..and he is a dog a warrior and all that...but he has no idea and i mean no idea how to run a pick and roll offense..which is where our offense thrived to be third in ball control this season when jose was running...i mean lowry's d is good but not that good...jose would have been a difference maker with rudy on the team....sure he is a liablity on defense....but he did improve...plus he had size for a pg and also one of the best shots in the nba when he goes off the screen...pick n pop machine...however i know the chances of even jose wanting to come back is slim to none...but if we want to improve as a club...number one choice is find another pg...use lowry as a backup...or place dwane as an assistant...cuz he is lookin terrible as a head coach
    I'm not even sure I would call his D good. Good PG D is keeping your man in front of you (easier said than done), fighting through screens and contesting shots. Lowry takes way too many chances by jumping into passing lanes and constantly reaching instead of playing with his feet. Though he clearly has the ability to play good, if not great D, it's a matter of reigning him in to play smart instead of going for glory every play.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

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  13. #32
    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    The little ounce of optimism I had came before the start of this season, and then the team went 4-19. I am not making that mistake again.

    I am going into next season with a 'meh' attitude. I'll only be happy if the Raptors replaced their GM.
    Couldn't have said it better myself. I'll admit to drinking the Kool-Aid in the past. Not this time.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

  14. #33
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I think the Raptors should package Ross with Bargnani this summer if the return is something good (i.e: a starter quality PF).

    It should be painfully obvious by now that Bargs isn't fetching anything of value by himself and Ross is the team's most desirable trade piece not named JV when you factor in his upside/salary. It always confused me when BC said Ross was "untouchable" in the Gay discussions considering that if the trade went through, Ross would be completely squeezed for minutes. I know a lot of people on the forums are high on him but he may need to be sacrificed if Bargnani is going to be turned into anything tangible.

    You raise a good point.. Bargnani alone I don't think can fetch anything good (unless its Boozer which I don't see happening anymore). So you would have to package him with some other asset to make the trade worthwhile.

    Here are the options:

    Bargnani + 2014 pick -> assuming the Raptors don't get in the top 3 then the 2014 pick is back. That would be very enticing to teams, and Bryan loves giving his pick away. I have no faith in the Raptors making the playoffs next season either, so giving up a lottery pick just to get rid of Bargnani in a "good" draft is a tall task. But this is probably the most likely option.

    Bargnani + Ross -> probably the most realistic if a player is involved. That's about $12.5M outgoing so can get someone decent and a team would probably bite as they get a guy with a lot of potential. But if you want to trade a guy with that much potential on a team that needs potential then it might be a bad deal.

    Bargnani + DeMar -> SG's are in short supply in the league and DeMar has 4 years under his belt. $9.5M is a high price tag, and $20M for the overall package is even higher. I don't think BC is willing to give up DeMar though.

    Bargnani + Fields -> LAL may make sense here as Fields did his best work for D'Antoni and Bargnani is a stretch 4 that they would probably love to have next to Dwight. Could see a trade like this for Gasol.. but LA is also looking to clear cap space for when Lebron is a potential free agent (although that's just speculation). Outside of LA I don't see too many teams interested in this pair and even then its unlikely.

    Bargnani + Kleiza -> Petrie of all people would probably slam the phone if this offer came through.

    Bargnani + Amir -> The Raptors would lose all their PF's, not going to happen.

    Bargnani + Lowry -> Perhaps if Jose was still a Raptor, but not anymore.

    Bargnani + Gay -> That's a lot of dough, and no way is Bryan going to trade Gay after just acquiring him.

    Bargnani + JV -> Yah right.

    That leaves the deep bench guys - Acy, JL3, Telfair, Gray and Zubcic. Don't see any team interested in any of these guys (unless if its JL3 and Chicago for that Boozer deal). The Raptors also only have one 2014 2nd rounder.. they do not have a 2013 2nd rounder. So that's one more asset they don't have.

    It's pretty sad but the best options to include in a trade package for Bargnani will be either Ross or the 2014 pick and those are big assets. Hopefully the Boozer deal is back on the table, otherwise we'll be talking about Spencer Hawes again.

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  16. #34
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    I would rather Dalembert whining and playing ball having some sort of offense in his toolbox than the immobile Lethargic laying Eggs Aaron Gray.

  17. #35
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    You raise a good point.. Bargnani alone I don't think can fetch anything good (unless its Boozer which I don't see happening anymore). So you would have to package him with some other asset to make the trade worthwhile.

    Here are the options:

    Bargnani + 2014 pick -> assuming the Raptors don't get in the top 3 then the 2014 pick is back. That would be very enticing to teams, and Bryan loves giving his pick away. I have no faith in the Raptors making the playoffs next season either, so giving up a lottery pick just to get rid of Bargnani in a "good" draft is a tall task. But this is probably the most likely option.

    Bargnani + Ross -> probably the most realistic if a player is involved. That's about $12.5M outgoing so can get someone decent and a team would probably bite as they get a guy with a lot of potential. But if you want to trade a guy with that much potential on a team that needs potential then it might be a bad deal.

    Bargnani + DeMar -> SG's are in short supply in the league and DeMar has 4 years under his belt. $9.5M is a high price tag, and $20M for the overall package is even higher. I don't think BC is willing to give up DeMar though.

    Bargnani + Fields -> LAL may make sense here as Fields did his best work for D'Antoni and Bargnani is a stretch 4 that they would probably love to have next to Dwight. Could see a trade like this for Gasol.. but LA is also looking to clear cap space for when Lebron is a potential free agent (although that's just speculation). Outside of LA I don't see too many teams interested in this pair and even then its unlikely.

    Bargnani + Kleiza -> Petrie of all people would probably slam the phone if this offer came through.

    Bargnani + Amir -> The Raptors would lose all their PF's, not going to happen.

    Bargnani + Lowry -> Perhaps if Jose was still a Raptor, but not anymore.

    Bargnani + Gay -> That's a lot of dough, and no way is Bryan going to trade Gay after just acquiring him.

    Bargnani + JV -> Yah right.

    That leaves the deep bench guys - Acy, JL3, Telfair, Gray and Zubcic. Don't see any team interested in any of these guys (unless if its JL3 and Chicago for that Boozer deal). The Raptors also only have one 2014 2nd rounder.. they do not have a 2013 2nd rounder. So that's one more asset they don't have.

    It's pretty sad but the best options to include in a trade package for Bargnani will be either Ross or the 2014 pick and those are big assets. Hopefully the Boozer deal is back on the table, otherwise we'll be talking about Spencer Hawes again.
    I think this breakdown is pretty spot on. My preference would be the first one if we luck into it, obviously. I hate to give up another current asset just to get rid of Bargs, and as much hype as the 2014 draft is getting, drafts are still drafts, and the chance of getting a high impact player outside the top 3-5 is always low.

    I would not really like to move Ross or Demar, as I doubt that any player gotten back will actually be that much better than either one is/can be. I feel like another year is needed before making that choice. Though in theory I would trade either one, but I don't know if I trust BC to win that trade....be it now, next year or later (god, if BC's still here...)

    In the end, if he can't connect Bargs to a draft pick, or to some depth pieces (Lucas, etc), I would hope he doesn't try to actually get a good player back. Just trade Bargs for whatever you can without impacting the core. If he can turn him into one good bench piece even, and/or less commitments, I'd be ok with that.

  18. #36
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I acknowledge it's a gamble choosing Ross's future "potential" over DeRozan's current production, but I'm just not a fan of DeRozan's game. I prefer Ross's pure athleticism, and hope that his jumper and defense make significant improvements this offseason. This future Ross seems like a much more balanced fit on the wing with Gay. Just my opinion.
    From a purely logistical standpoint, it will be harder for teams to absorb ~$20 million dollars of salary with DeRozan/Bargnani than it will be to absorb ~$13 million with Ross/Bargnani. Ross also signifies a great deal of potential in any deal, which will be big for any team that is willing to take Bargnani's corpse off the Raptors hands. Also, as you referenced earlier, DeRozan's contract isn't dreadful by any stretch, but I doubt that a lot of teams see it as a great value either.

    From a basketball standpoint, the Raptors can't really afford to sacrifice production for potential with the way their current roster is set up. They've basically moved into win now mode (as ridiculous as that may seem; it's true) for the next two seasons and DD figures to be a big part of that. Ross simply isn't ready to start in the league. The talk of him being "untouchable" to me is laughable with so much wing depth in front of him and his struggles during large stretches of this year.

    The 'rebuild' came to a screeching halt when they traded for Gay. Even before then, the Raptors seemed to struggle with the balance between developing their young players and putting a competitive team on the court. I can only see that getting worse as the pressure to make the playoffs gets amplified next year. I think Ross has more value for the Raptors in a trade than he does on the actual roster.

  19. #37
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I acknowledge it's a gamble choosing Ross's future "potential" over DeRozan's current production, but I'm just not a fan of DeRozan's game. I prefer Ross's pure athleticism, and hope that his jumper and defense make significant improvements this offseason. This future Ross seems like a much more balanced fit on the wing with Gay. Just my opinion.
    This + the financial impact of DeRozan VS Ross.

    The Raptors are nearly a luxury tax team yet the team - as currently constructed - is going to need to play well just to sneak into the playoffs next year. There is a huge disparity between the team's salary and talent, let alone the fit of what talent and youth/potential the team does have.

    Even removing Bargnani & Kleiza would still only bring the team down to the expected salary cap level, meaning the only way talent can be added is via free agency (exceptions only) and trade.

    All of this rationale is why I've been so vocal about the team needing to at least consider the possibility of trading DeRozan, especially if it's the only/best way to address the starting PF spot. I just don't think Bargnani and garbage is going to get it done, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong!

  20. #38
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    This + the financial impact of DeRozan VS Ross.

    The Raptors are nearly a luxury tax team yet the team - as currently constructed - is going to need to play well just to sneak into the playoffs next year. There is a huge disparity between the team's salary and talent, let alone the fit of what talent and youth/potential the team does have.

    Even removing Bargnani & Kleiza would still only bring the team down to the expected salary cap level, meaning the only way talent can be added is via free agency (exceptions only) and trade.

    All of this rationale is why I've been so vocal about the team needing to at least consider the possibility of trading DeRozan, especially if it's the only/best way to address the starting PF spot. I just don't think Bargnani and garbage is going to get it done, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong!
    Salary matching rules mean that any trade for DeRozan is going to result in the Raptors taking back a similar amount of salary in return though. Unless you're trading him for a draft pick - and in that case I don't see it solving the starting PF problem necessarily.

  21. #39
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
    I'm not even sure I would call his D good. Good PG D is keeping your man in front of you (easier said than done), fighting through screens and contesting shots. Lowry takes way too many chances by jumping into passing lanes and constantly reaching instead of playing with his feet. Though he clearly has the ability to play good, if not great D, it's a matter of reigning him in to play smart instead of going for glory every play.
    Part of his gambles are made up for by taking charges, defensive rebounding, and weak-side strips.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  22. #40
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    The best NBA PG in the league at getting over screens is Deron Williams.

    It is not only because he is big for a PG, he has perfect defensive technique in doing it. Guys screening him screen his outstretched arm, his arms are always up on defense, giving him the space to go over it.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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