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  • #46
    white men can't jump wrote:
    Look, I took exception to your post because you also basically called me a hater. Then you basically went on to call Amir a role player, which is what I called him. Apparently, by taking exception to your examples, which I understand you said were extreme, but you did go on to compare them for a paragraph with the conclusion that Amir is a better all-around player than those guys (skill-set maybe, but player?), I pissed p00ka off.

    FWIW, using your own extreme examples, with the 2 guys you picked and who were critical parts of many successful teams, especially Rodman...well they were also role players. And neither was ever really untouchable nor a must-keep. The reason being that a guy who defends, rebounds and hustles is much easier to replace than a franchise scorer, big or PG. So if I misunderstood your post and examples, you're equally guilty of not realizing that my view of Amir is not that different from yours, and not paying attention to my posts to see that I never disagreed with the fact that he could start, or that he's valuable to the team.

    And also, FWIW, I think any comparisons of Amir to other players has to start with him basically being a shorter Marcus Camby (or at least wiry hustle guys of that variety)....any other thoughts?
    I actually find it fairly hard to find a good comparison for Amir. I don't agree with Camby though; Camby was a game changer on defence, and based on the eye-test, I'd say Amir is an average or below-average defender.

    The problem with finding an equivalent to Amir is that he doesn't have that one feature of his game that sets him apart. Some people in this thread say effort, but I (bracing for the hate!) don't really see it...I mean, sure, he doesn't take plays off, but when I think of effort players, I think JYD, Rodman, Garnett, Faried, Matt Barnes, Avery Bradley - guys who you know are on the floor at all times, because they're always mixing it up and always making something happen. I've always found Amir's actual impact on the game to be kind of meh. Average. And replaceable.

    Remember that we've all been watching Bargnani for seven years. This might be why Amir's effort seems much more exceptional than it is.
    "Stop eating your sushi."
    "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
    "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
    - Jack Armstrong

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    • #47
      JimiCliff wrote: View Post
      I actually find it fairly hard to find a good comparison for Amir. I don't agree with Camby though; Camby was a game changer on defence, and based on the eye-test, I'd say Amir is an average or below-average defender.

      The problem with finding an equivalent to Amir is that he doesn't have that one feature of his game that sets him apart. Some people in this thread say effort, but I (bracing for the hate!) don't really see it...I mean, sure, he doesn't take plays off, but when I think of effort players, I think JYD, Rodman, Garnett, Faried, Matt Barnes, Avery Bradley - guys who you know are on the floor at all times, because they're always mixing it up and always making something happen. I've always found Amir's actual impact on the game to be kind of meh. Average. And replaceable.

      Remember that we've all been watching Bargnani for seven years. This might be why Amir's effort seems much more exceptional than it is.
      Well, I sort of agree, but I also sort of think this is why Camby is a good comparison. Remember I also said a shorter Camby, which I should've explicitly stated meant that he's not quite as good a defender. But I think apart from the difference on D, which is mostly that because of Amir's size he's not as good a shotblocker or able to defend enough Cs, I'd say "he doesn't have that one feature of his game that sets him apart" pretty much defines them both quite well. Camby might also be slightly better in other areas, but he was basically a super glueguy, and I also see Amir continuing to refine/improve for another couple of years...so I'm hoping at that point, that the height (and associated impact) is the only signficant difference.

      I don't think it has anything to do with watching Bargs. Right now I would put Amir in a category with guys like Gibson, Collison, Ilyasova, Haslem, etc. Those guys have pretty high levels of effort. Amir does not try less than those guys.

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      • #48
        white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        Well, I sort of agree, but I also sort of think this is why Camby is a good comparison. Remember I also said a shorter Camby, which I should've explicitly stated meant that he's not quite as good a defender. But I think apart from the difference on D, which is mostly that because of Amir's size he's not as good a shotblocker or able to defend enough Cs, I'd say "he doesn't have that one feature of his game that sets him apart" pretty much defines them both quite well. Camby might also be slightly better in other areas, but he was basically a super glueguy, and I also see Amir continuing to refine/improve for another couple of years...so I'm hoping at that point, that the height (and associated impact) is the only signficant difference.

        I don't think it has anything to do with watching Bargs. Right now I would put Amir in a category with guys like Gibson, Collison, Ilyasova, Haslem, etc. Those guys have pretty high levels of effort. Amir does not try less than those guys.
        1st bold: I've gotta disagree with you there: Camby was a huge defensive presence. He blocked three and a half shots a game one year!

        2nd bold: To me, though, those guys you just mentioned display average to somewhat-above-average effort. Their effort does not jump out at me. It's almost as if we'll take offensively challenged big guys (Ilyasova excluded) and give them the label of "effort players" just because we need for them to have a defining feature to their game.

        Now, Joakim Noah: that's an effort player. And thankfully for us, Jonas is looking like an effort player. I'd even say that about Quincy Acy before I'd say it about Amir.

        But I don't wanna be hating about Amir in his own thread. Seems like a good dude, useful rotation player, good contract.
        "Stop eating your sushi."
        "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
        "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
        - Jack Armstrong

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        • #49
          JimiCliff wrote: View Post
          1st bold: I've gotta disagree with you there: Camby was a huge defensive presence. He blocked three and a half shots a game one year!

          2nd bold: To me, though, those guys you just mentioned display average to somewhat-above-average effort. Their effort does not jump out at me. It's almost as if we'll take offensively challenged big guys (Ilyasova excluded) and give them the label of "effort players" just because we need for them to have a defining feature to their game.

          Now, Joakim Noah: that's an effort player. And thankfully for us, Jonas is looking like an effort player. I'd even say that about Quincy Acy before I'd say it about Amir.
          I admitted there is a difference on D, specifically with shotblocking (and defending Cs)...so your first part wasn't necessary.

          AS for the whole effort thing, sorry, I should've also added that despite the fact that I think Amir brings good effort, I also wouldn't call him an effort guy. I'd call him a glue or utility player. Such guys usually have a high level of awareness and effort, but the defining feature is usually their ability to fill empty spaces on the floor and stat sheet. To duck in at the right times, to roll hard, to keep the ball moving, to be a competent last option on O (to knock down a J or a baby hook, for example), to talk a lot on D, to always try and make your rotation on D....Basically a player who always tries to make the smart/easy play for the team. Amir is such a guy...Fields could be one (especially if he fixes his shot)...I would say that Gibson, Collison, and Ilyasova are such guys as well. So while they may not be "effort" players in terms of level of effort being at that elite pinnacle, the consistency of effort is there, and they couldn't be good utility/glue bigs without it.

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          • #50
            white men can't jump wrote: View Post
            I don't think it has anything to do with watching Bargs. Right now I would put Amir in a category with guys like Gibson, Collison, Ilyasova, Haslem, etc. Those guys have pretty high levels of effort. Amir does not try less than those guys.
            As much as I appreciate Amir's game I would have to agree.I think he must develop some sort of skill at a great level in order to be more complete and valuable player. Not that he isn't such now but he can improve. And he is young and showed that he is improving so I would expect more from him next year.

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            • #51
              Amir doenst have much talent but you take a guy a guy in his position with a high motor over a guy that is just talented.

              @White Men Cant Jump

              Carl Landry seems the most likely with the possibility of Dalembert Ilyasova will likely be very valuable to the bucks to hold onto as Jennings and Monta said they are not coming back and hate it there openly the team will probably be rebuilding. looking to either keep Ilyasova or sell him high.
              Last edited by Rapstor4Life; Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:16 PM.

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              • #52
                Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
                Amir doenst have much talent but you take a guy a guy in his position with a high motor over a guy that is just talented.

                @White Men Cant Jump

                Carl Landry seems the most likely with the possibility of Dalembert Ilyasova will likely be very valuable to the bucks to hold onto as Jennings and Monta said they are not coming back and hate it there openly the team will probably be rebuilding. looking to either keep Ilyasova or sell him high.
                I consider Dalembert a 4th big option. Now, this isn't set in stone, but I generally think of our 3rd big primarily as a PF, and 4th big as another spot backup to JV. I think Gray is passable as a 4th big, but if we could add someone with a bit more talent, that would be nice, and if not, at least another true C to back up JV. On that list, I don't think I could include Dalembert, but only because of character, not talent. We can agree to disagree there. I would probably have, in no real order, and again keeping in mind that I likely see this big as primarily a C who would fit with Amir and whoever else is added at PF....

                -Elton Brand: short, but big/strong enough to guard most Cs and has been a good defender his whole career. Still has a bit of an offensive game, but nothing to depend on. Could be a key vet like when TO first got Willis and Oak (Brand's game does even has some elements of each of theirs').

                -Zaza Pachulia: Just an experienced body to back up JV, and a guy who could throw some elbows for us.

                -Chris Kaman: possibility especially if things fizzle out on the PF search? Really slow, but sound offensively. Don't really want him, but I can see situations where he ends up on Toronto. Such a liability defensively...like Bargnani, but 10 times worse.

                -Ronny Turiaf: if they want to add a physical presence, this is the guy. If they get another athletic/stretch guy at PF, he would be a really good option at backup C, I think. A bruiser with decent intensity. Doesn't bring a lot more talent to the team, but people would really learn to fear the paint if every time they went in they took a hit from either him, JV or Gray.

                -Drew Gooden: maybe not the best option, and really more of a F/C, but to match my other post, in the unlikely event they snag Ilyasova, this guy would almost certainly be part of the cost. I always felt kind of "meh" about his game, but at least he produced until this season...I don't know wtf happened to him though, or if it's just from falling off the depth chart with the Bucks' young bigs and trying to unload Dalembert.

                fallback options: Nazr Mohammed, Ryan Hollins...I dno't know, lots of big bodies out there. Mozgov...

                *Oh yeah, I bolded Jennings and Ellis because there have been so many random reports out there that I find it hard to judge what the outcome will be. I think it's fair to say at least one is gone, maybe both, and if one stays, it's hard to know which one.
                Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:21 PM.

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                • #53
                  heinz57 wrote: View Post
                  I'm going to call you RaptorBooben from now on.
                  Heinz Ketchup fity zen!
                  Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                  • #54
                    RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
                    Heinz Ketchup fity zen!
                    i've used the heinz name for so long, that i actually have a friend who refers to me as (and has me listed in her phone as) "Ketchup"

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                    • #55
                      hmmm, RaptorReuban had a post directed at me here. I responded, and both have disappeared. What`s up with that

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                      • #56
                        Amir is the man...'nuff said!!

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                        • #57
                          JawsGT wrote: View Post
                          Amir is the man...'nuff said!!
                          Who does he look like he's about to crap on in your avatar?

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                          • #58
                            p00ka wrote: View Post
                            hmmm, RaptorReuban had a post directed at me here. I responded, and both have disappeared. What`s up with that
                            It's a pointless conversation, I replied to them afterwards, but doesn't need to be on here. Let's talk Amir Johnson.

                            Cheers.
                            Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                            • #59
                              Amir Johnson is the best player on the Raptors. Our off rtg to def rtg differential is +4.2 with him on. It's -9 without him. Considering the fact that he plays a lot of minutes, that stat is ridiculous.

                              Stop trying to replace Johnson with another PF because he doesn't put up gaudy numbers. Start trying to replace everyone else and build around the one guy who is actually a winner.
                              "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                              -Churchill

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                              • #60
                                hateslosing wrote: View Post
                                Amir Johnson is the best player on the Raptors. Our off rtg to def rtg differential is +4.2 with him on. It's -9 without him. Considering the fact that he plays a lot of minutes, that stat is ridiculous.

                                Stop trying to replace Johnson with another PF because he doesn't put up gaudy numbers. Start trying to replace everyone else and build around the one guy who is actually a winner.
                                I agree that we have to stop trying to replace him. He is our starting power forward, no doubt. Building around him? I don't think so. Let's not build around one player; let's build a team. I really like our starting 5. Now we need backups at the 5, 4 ans 1 spot for next year. That's what it's all about.

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