View Poll Results: Grade Amir's Season.

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  • A

    14 45.16%
  • B

    15 48.39%
  • C

    1 3.23%
  • D

    0 0%
  • F

    1 3.23%
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Thread: Everything Amir Johnson

  1. #21
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    Quote NoFrillz wrote: View Post
    Man! I rarely post on here, but I'm sick of people hating on Amir. If Amir left, of course it would make an impact on the Raptors rebuild... How could it not? It makes an impact each game when he is substituted out.

    I know the guy doesn't have a polished offensive game, but that doesn't mean he isn't starter quality. You only need so many starters that can create or have plays called for them. It would be great if your bigs have some slicks post moves, but realistically, if you have solid perimeter players, you just need your bigs to be able to finish at the rim/close to the rim. That keeps defences honest on your post players. In that regard, Amir is actually one of the best on the team. He has the softest touch on the team, some of the best hands I've ever seen on a big (he catches some really crappy passes, even on the run), and is a great finisher.

    People overlook that being able to catch the ball is a basketball skill (anyone remember butter-finger bosh?). The ability to play with high intensity/effort the entire game is a skill (Jordan, Kobe). The ability to finish around the basket with a soft-touch is a skill.

    Yeah, he sometimes has awareness issues as people have mentioned (bad passes, etc.), but so do a lot of starters. When Gay dribbles into 2 defenders and tries to shoot over them without considering open teammates--I consider that an awareness problem. Yet people never doubt that he's a starter. How many turnovers did Rudy have against Charlotte? 6? How about Amir? Yet people bitch about his "boneheaded plays". If someone contributes points, rebounds, man defence, help defence, extra possessions (off. rebounds and diving for loose balls) while limiting his turnovers--screams positive benefit for the team.

    The best teams have their dominant scorers and players with roles surrounding them. Amir is an examplary role player. An extreme example to make my point is Dennis Rodman. The guy was an amazing man defender, the best rebounder in history... but left a lot to be desired in other areas. Amir--not as strong as a man/post defender, Amir is a better help defender by far, not as strong a rebounder, but is no slouch...better offensive rebounder.. a better passer, a better shooter, can finish the pick and roll so defence has to respect him in the key... I could go on.
    I mean, have you seen Rodman shoot free throws? The guy didn't give a crap. He just laughed and threw it at the rim... almost chest-passed it at the rim. Mutombo couldn't do anything but block and rebound... Those players do specific things better than Amir, but Amir is clearly the better all-around player... yet they are starters, and Amir can't be?

    It also depends on the make-up of your team and what it needs. If you have crap perimeter players, then hopefully you have a post player with a strong offensive game. For the Raptors, Amir is exactly what we need. Starter in my eyes. I respect that other people have opinions, but I can't help feel that questioning Amir is ludacris.

    **Edit** Amir had same number of turnovers as Gay last game... however Amir's season averages and career averages are still lower than Gay's.
    +1

    Unbelievable, isn't it? As is the response you got from "white men can't jump". The point flew over some heads I guess, and as is often seen on here, taken as simply comparing player "x" to player "y" instead of the concept presented.

    PS. I wonder where all the people are to own up to slagging BC for the contract he gave Amir. I bet there isn't a GM in the league that wouldn't love to have Amir for that price right now. I'd bet the same thing is going to happen with DeMar.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    +1

    Unbelievable, isn't it? As is the response you got from "white men can't jump". The point flew over some heads I guess, and as is often seen on here, taken as simply comparing player "x" to player "y" instead of the concept presented.

    PS. I wonder where all the people are to own up to slagging BC for the contract he gave Amir. I bet there isn't a GM in the league that wouldn't love to have Amir for that price right now. I'd bet the same thing is going to happen with DeMar.
    Umm...he did directly compare Amir to Rodman though...he even called Amir a better offensive rebounder.....ability to have an objective viewpoint lost there...

    He also compared Gay turning it over to be the same as Amir turning it over, as if their usage is at all similar, and as if turnovers are the only boneheaded plays possible.

    Again, if you actually read my posts, you'll notice I'm an Amir supporter, I'm just not going to be delusional about it.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sat Mar 16th, 2013 at 06:27 PM.

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  4. #23
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Umm...he did directly compare Amir to Rodman though...he even called Amir a better offensive rebounder.....ability to have an objective viewpoint lost there...

    He also compared Gay turning it over to be the same as Amir turning it over, as if their usage is at all similar, and as if turnovers are the only boneheaded plays possible.

    Again, if you actually read my posts, you'll notice I'm an Amir supporter, I'm just not going to be delusional about it.
    If you restrict your attention span to a sentence here or there, then you're right that he compared Amir to Rodman and Gay, but if you're able to pay attention to the whole post, he's not doing that at all, but speaking to the concept of players being valuable starters on a good/very good team despite certain weaknesses, and so much of that depends on the blend of starting players. Yes, it was inaccurate to say Amir is a better offensive rebounder, but that's nit-picking a detail and overlooking the essence of the post that Amir doesn't need to be an all star that's strong at everything to be a valuable starter, in particular on a team with the make-up of the Raps.

  5. #24
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Amir's go to move with those baby hooks are pretty dam impressive.

  6. #25
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Amir is our most useful player.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  7. #26
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  8. #27
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    If you restrict your attention span to a sentence here or there, then you're right that he compared Amir to Rodman and Gay, but if you're able to pay attention to the whole post, he's not doing that at all, but speaking to the concept of players being valuable starters on a good/very good team despite certain weaknesses, and so much of that depends on the blend of starting players. Yes, it was inaccurate to say Amir is a better offensive rebounder, but that's nit-picking a detail and overlooking the essence of the post that Amir doesn't need to be an all star that's strong at everything to be a valuable starter, in particular on a team with the make-up of the Raps.
    Not going to get into a debate with you...they tend to end up just being condescending shouting matches. I don't htink you read my posts very well, because I also consistently support Amir. I think some Raps fans just take things to absurd extremes trying to get their points across, no matter how much they try to pass it off as just an example.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Mar 17th, 2013 at 08:56 PM.

  9. #28
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Not going to get into a debate with you...they tend to end up just being condescending shouting matches. I don't htink you read my posts very well, because I also consistently support Amir. I think some Raps fans just take things to absurd extremes trying to get their points across, no matter how much they try to pass it off as just an example.
    hmmm, "condescending shouting matches". So are you speaking of some personal experience, with multiple people, or with one particular poster that you're leaning on? I would like to know how I've mistreated you, such that I can be better.

    I'm sorry you feel that good examples of a point are taking things to extremes, though that's the best chance of getting the point across sometimes. Great to hear that you consistently support Amir, even when if he "left your team, it would possibly not even make any impact on the building/rebuilding happening" as "he's not exactly top of the list of players a team needs to win/contend". Support away, and have fun out there, eh.

  10. #29
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    hmmm, "condescending shouting matches". So are you speaking of some personal experience, with multiple people, or with one particular poster that you're leaning on? I would like to know how I've mistreated you, such that I can be better.

    I'm sorry you feel that good examples of a point are taking things to extremes, though that's the best chance of getting the point across sometimes. Great to hear that you consistently support Amir, even when if he "left your team, it would possibly not even make any impact on the building/rebuilding happening" as "he's not exactly top of the list of players a team needs to win/contend". Support away, and have fun out there, eh.
    Yeah, this is what I meant by condescending. First you accuse me of taking a small piece of a post out of context, and then you go and take quotes of mine completely out of context, you colossal douche bag. You only look to bait people into some kind of personal argument with to goal of putting yourself in a position which you feel is irrefutably the winning side.

    If you actually read my posts, I just make a point of saying not to take Amir for anything different than what he is, which is a very good role player. That's not a slight. It's not a bad thing to be the 5th most talented player on a starting 5. He is, technically, easier to replace than a talented core piece, like JV (a legit 2 way true C), or a go-to scorer (hopefully Gay can fix his shot and fit this), as any Raps fan should know since we've never had the former, and I suppose Bosh is sort of the last time for the latter, but Carter would be from the wing position(the only one the Raps have had since I don't count T-Mac who left before he hit that). The Raps have had some players with similar qualities to Johnson...AD, JYD, Garbo, Evans...Amir may be better than all of them, but to take Evans...Amir would certainly make BKL better than Evans, but it doesn't change how strong the Nets are right now. He would solidify what they do, but they depend on having core roles filled by guys like Lopez, Johnson and Williams in order to achieve much of their success. He'd make them better, but they wouldn't even be a playoff team without that core in the first place. So if in order to solidify a core, for some reason, the team had to lose Amir, they could recover from that much more easily than, say, if they traded JV for the same player(s). You might not replace everything Amir gives you right away, but you'd have a much better shot of doing it at the next off season (and at every offseason) with a smart pick or signing than replacing other core pieces. If you don't understand that, well, then, you must have really complex opinions that really do go over my simple head.

  11. #30
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    keep it going guys !

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    Just thought I would point out that Amir is (if taking only his numbers as a starter) the 10th highest scoring pf in the league at 13ppg and the 3rd highest rebounding 4 in the league at 10rpg

  13. #32
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    If Amir continues this way, his value will be unbelievable. Colangelo's will be busy answering calls about his availability. It's probably the best chance to trade Bargnani. Bargnani and Amir packaged together could fetch us an all-star caliber player.
    I would rather trade Derozan, because if BOTH Bargnani and Amir are traded, our front-court is significantly thin. For the wing position, with Derozan gone, and assuming the receiving value is a big (meaning no wing in return), we have Gay/Ross/Fields, likely Anderson or another third stringer gets signed, and the team has a 4-man wing rotation.

    Although, if that all-star calibre guy IS Josh Smith, or some type of big - who also stays long-term - than it would be foolish for BC not to entertain any calls. Like I said though, I would rather put Derozan/Bargnani on the table.

  14. #33
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Yeah, this is what I meant by condescending. First you accuse me of taking a small piece of a post out of context, and then you go and take quotes of mine completely out of context, you colossal douche bag. You only look to bait people into some kind of personal argument with to goal of putting yourself in a position which you feel is irrefutably the winning side.

    If you actually read my posts, I just make a point of saying not to take Amir for anything different than what he is, which is a very good role player. That's not a slight. It's not a bad thing to be the 5th most talented player on a starting 5. He is, technically, easier to replace than a talented core piece, like JV (a legit 2 way true C), or a go-to scorer (hopefully Gay can fix his shot and fit this), as any Raps fan should know since we've never had the former, and I suppose Bosh is sort of the last time for the latter, but Carter would be from the wing position(the only one the Raps have had since I don't count T-Mac who left before he hit that). The Raps have had some players with similar qualities to Johnson...AD, JYD, Garbo, Evans...Amir may be better than all of them, but to take Evans...Amir would certainly make BKL better than Evans, but it doesn't change how strong the Nets are right now. He would solidify what they do, but they depend on having core roles filled by guys like Lopez, Johnson and Williams in order to achieve much of their success. He'd make them better, but they wouldn't even be a playoff team without that core in the first place. So if in order to solidify a core, for some reason, the team had to lose Amir, they could recover from that much more easily than, say, if they traded JV for the same player(s). You might not replace everything Amir gives you right away, but you'd have a much better shot of doing it at the next off season (and at every offseason) with a smart pick or signing than replacing other core pieces. If you don't understand that, well, then, you must have really complex opinions that really do go over my simple head.
    If I may...

    white men can't jump - 1. Try to paragraph your responses, that way, it makes it easier and gives clarity to the readers. Sorry, I don't mean to critique your writing, I just personally feel - and possibly others that don't fully understand your posts - that giving a space in between different points is better for your readers.
    State the point, back-up the point, re-state. Than, move on to the next point.

    Pooka - 2. You've been getting into a couple of "brew-ha-ha's" with some posters here in the recent days, settle down, I'm not one of those strict guys/mods like CRF - who is an awesome mod by the way (actually they're all awesome mods, different in their own way, and trying to learn) - but you really should think about trying to give a more understanding tone. I get what you're trying to say in your posts, but I think readers are reading it in a different way.

    Everyone - 3. Let's lay off on the personal attacks, not just to you 'white men can't jump', you're a well respected poster around here. I don't care about swearing, hell - Fuck. Shit. Up. Cunts. - not just to other people, respect everyone here on RR regardless of what they say, how you feel, etc. Just saying, but the best comeback is being nice.

    Everyone's been getting testy around here lately, I love the passion, let's just stay within the borders, not jump out of bounds.

  15. #34
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    I would rather trade Derozan, because if BOTH Bargnani and Amir are traded, our front-court is significantly thin. For the wing position, with Derozan gone, and assuming the receiving value is a big (meaning no wing in return), we have Gay/Ross/Fields, likely Anderson or another third stringer gets signed, and the team has a 4-man wing rotation.

    Although, if that all-star calibre guy IS Josh Smith, or some type of big - who also stays long-term - than it would be foolish for BC not to entertain any calls. Like I said though, I would rather put Derozan/Bargnani on the table.
    This is basically what I was getting at before pooka was trying to spawn some hate toward me....Amir is a very solid role player, but a role player is easier to replace than a core piece, and thus expendable if it can help the team upgrade said core. Would replacing him be easy? No....but they would be a better team in such a situation than if they kept him with a worse core. Amir is the "glue" that helps solidify the "foundation", but glue can't change a clay/mud foundation into stone/concrete.

    Ideally they can keep Amir and upgrade the core without losing him, especially since it would make them thin up front, but it's not as urgent as evaluating/finalizing said foundation.

    I've also been one of the ONLY people (who posts a lot) I can think of who since long before the trade deadline was against getting big name PFs to replace Amir, and think the best situation is finding another strong role player with different strengths, hence my mancrush on Ersan Ilyasova since I think he and Amir would make the perfect PF tandem as role players on the Raps. So I do consider myself a huge Amir supporter, but again, I also try to look at the "real" picture. He is not untouchable. And while he can start, it's a little funny, to say the least, to throw his name out there even just for fun with guys like Rodman and Mutombo.

  16. #35
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    This is basically what I was getting at before pooka was trying to spawn some hate toward me....Amir is a very solid role player, but a role player is easier to replace than a core piece, and thus expendable if it can help the team upgrade said core. Would replacing him be easy? No....but they would be a better team in such a situation than if they kept him with a worse core. Amir is the "glue" that helps solidify the "foundation", but glue can't change a clay/mud foundation into stone/concrete.

    Ideally they can keep Amir and upgrade the core without losing him, especially since it would make them thin up front, but it's not as urgent as evaluating/finalizing said foundation.

    I've also been one of the ONLY people (who posts a lot) I can think of who since long before the trade deadline was against getting big name PFs to replace Amir, and think the best situation is finding another strong role player with different strengths, hence my mancrush on Ersan Ilyasova since I think he and Amir would make the perfect PF tandem as role players on the Raps. So I do consider myself a huge Amir supporter, but again, I also try to look at the "real" picture. He is not untouchable. And while he can start, it's a little funny, to say the least, to throw his name out there even just for fun with guys like Rodman and Mutombo.
    I'd really like to get him as well. Sadly, I don't see how it is possible. The only hope might be taking on Gooden along with Ilyasova.
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  17. #36
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'd really like to get him as well. Sadly, I don't see how it is possible. The only hope might be taking on Gooden along with Ilyasova.
    I think I'd be ok with that....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  18. #37
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I think I'd be ok with that....
    I would as well.

    Gooden's deal runs as long as Bargnani's.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #38
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'd really like to get him as well. Sadly, I don't see how it is possible. The only hope might be taking on Gooden along with Ilyasova.
    It seemed possible when he started the season badly too. He's been playing like crazy (for him) for the last couple of months. BTW, Ersan's rebounding total against Miami...17 (7 O, 10 D), and past three games 11, 17(miami), 12.

    Sadly, though, I have to agree with you, and now it seems damn near impossible. Oh well. I can still dream about the 3 big rotation of JV/Amir/Ersan. So much rebounding and offensive flexibility...

  20. #39
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post

    Pooka - 2. You've been getting into a couple of "brew-ha-ha's" with some posters here in the recent days, settle down, I'm not one of those strict guys/mods like CRF - who is an awesome mod by the way (actually they're all awesome mods, different in their own way, and trying to learn) - but you really should think about trying to give a more understanding tone. I get what you're trying to say in your posts, but I think readers are reading it in a different way.
    Jeeeeeez, what the hell is up with the hissy fits going on? (not speaking of you, but others). I've been getting into "brew-ha-ha's", you say? Perhaps the question I would ask is who is turning them into such. In this exchange:

    - when I thought the discussion was civilized (please show me if I'm wrong), I was suddenly accused of creating "condescending shouting matches". Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing of the kind was happening. I see that as some sort of whiney (my opinion not previously expressed) re-direct away from a weak argument. I asked the dude where he gets this from, as in don't just spew accusations and run away behind someone else's shouted opinion, so that I might be better in the future.
    - He responds with calling me "colossal douche bag"
    - You say settle down guys
    - He comes back with some delusion of how I apparently was "was trying to spawn some hate toward" him. Huh? How am/was I doing this?

    Opinions are great. We all have them, but what are the forum rules for expressing disagreement? This isn't sitting around the campfire singing Kumbaya, is it? I've no problem getting straightened out on my manner at any given point in time, but I can't take the fall for people spewing past images as some inaccurate deflection of a current discussion, then calling me names in their hissy fit, before claiming imaginary conspiracy to spawn hatred toward him.

    If I caused what you feel is a "brew-ha-ha", please show me where I screwed up and was so offensive, because I've seen much worse on here, with no reprimands.

  21. #40
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Jeeeeeez, what the hell is up with the hissy fits going on? (not speaking of you, but others). I've been getting into "brew-ha-ha's", you say? Perhaps the question I would ask is who is turning them into such. In this exchange:

    - when I thought the discussion was civilized (please show me if I'm wrong), I was suddenly accused of creating "condescending shouting matches". Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing of the kind was happening. I see that as some sort of whiney (my opinion not previously expressed) re-direct away from a weak argument. I asked the dude where he gets this from, as in don't just spew accusations and run away behind someone else's shouted opinion, so that I might be better in the future.
    - He responds with calling me "colossal douche bag"
    - You say settle down guys
    - He comes back with some delusion of how I apparently was "was trying to spawn some hate toward" him. Huh? How am/was I doing this?

    Opinions are great. We all have them, but what are the forum rules for expressing disagreement? This isn't sitting around the campfire singing Kumbaya, is it? I've no problem getting straightened out on my manner at any given point in time, but I can't take the fall for people spewing past images as some inaccurate deflection of a current discussion, then calling me names in their hissy fit, before claiming imaginary conspiracy to spawn hatred toward him.

    If I caused what you feel is a "brew-ha-ha", please show me where I screwed up and was so offensive, because I've seen much worse on here, with no reprimands.
    Just to put it simply....it is condescending because you immediately took a view opposed to mine, belittled mine, and pretended that I was arguing on things taken out of context in my original reply to NoFrillz's post. You then proceeded to do the exact same things and only use one or two parts of sentences in quoting me to argue against me and invalidate my points. You tried to spin/twist my argument to make me sound like an Amir hater who didn't know anything, which is clearly not the case, and you would've known that if you paid attention to my whole posts.

    I quote you here, to help understand why you're being douchey:
    "If you restrict your attention span to a sentence here or there..." which is exactly how you started arguing against me. Immediately attacking me before 'making your points'. Maybe my posts weren't clear, but you clearly didn't make the effort to actually understand them. You were just interested in taking the isolated, out of context points you disagree on and passive aggressively attacking me with them. Well, you can keep going if you want. I'm done.

    *I've also tried to keep the discussion, even this shitty one with you, on Amir, even if I throw in some jabs at you...but you keep coming back to attacking me...
    your 1st post.."Unbelievable, isn't it? As is the response you got from 'white men can't jump'..."
    2nd one "If you restrict your attention span to a sentence here or there..."
    3rd one...attacking me with my own quotes taken out of context (douche alert)
    4th one...not even mentioning Amir, again just trying to paint me as a reactionary fool or something...
    So do you have any of your own thoughts on Amir? Or are you just going to use other people's points to start arguments with others? Everything you are saying seems more about putting me down than making an actual point...
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon Mar 18th, 2013 at 12:11 PM.

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