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  • #31
    Just thought I would point out that Amir is (if taking only his numbers as a starter) the 10th highest scoring pf in the league at 13ppg and the 3rd highest rebounding 4 in the league at 10rpg

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    • #32
      Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
      If Amir continues this way, his value will be unbelievable. Colangelo's will be busy answering calls about his availability. It's probably the best chance to trade Bargnani. Bargnani and Amir packaged together could fetch us an all-star caliber player.
      I would rather trade Derozan, because if BOTH Bargnani and Amir are traded, our front-court is significantly thin. For the wing position, with Derozan gone, and assuming the receiving value is a big (meaning no wing in return), we have Gay/Ross/Fields, likely Anderson or another third stringer gets signed, and the team has a 4-man wing rotation.

      Although, if that all-star calibre guy IS Josh Smith, or some type of big - who also stays long-term - than it would be foolish for BC not to entertain any calls. Like I said though, I would rather put Derozan/Bargnani on the table.
      Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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      • #33
        white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        Yeah, this is what I meant by condescending. First you accuse me of taking a small piece of a post out of context, and then you go and take quotes of mine completely out of context, you colossal douche bag. You only look to bait people into some kind of personal argument with to goal of putting yourself in a position which you feel is irrefutably the winning side.

        If you actually read my posts, I just make a point of saying not to take Amir for anything different than what he is, which is a very good role player. That's not a slight. It's not a bad thing to be the 5th most talented player on a starting 5. He is, technically, easier to replace than a talented core piece, like JV (a legit 2 way true C), or a go-to scorer (hopefully Gay can fix his shot and fit this), as any Raps fan should know since we've never had the former, and I suppose Bosh is sort of the last time for the latter, but Carter would be from the wing position(the only one the Raps have had since I don't count T-Mac who left before he hit that). The Raps have had some players with similar qualities to Johnson...AD, JYD, Garbo, Evans...Amir may be better than all of them, but to take Evans...Amir would certainly make BKL better than Evans, but it doesn't change how strong the Nets are right now. He would solidify what they do, but they depend on having core roles filled by guys like Lopez, Johnson and Williams in order to achieve much of their success. He'd make them better, but they wouldn't even be a playoff team without that core in the first place. So if in order to solidify a core, for some reason, the team had to lose Amir, they could recover from that much more easily than, say, if they traded JV for the same player(s). You might not replace everything Amir gives you right away, but you'd have a much better shot of doing it at the next off season (and at every offseason) with a smart pick or signing than replacing other core pieces. If you don't understand that, well, then, you must have really complex opinions that really do go over my simple head.
        If I may...

        white men can't jump - 1. Try to paragraph your responses, that way, it makes it easier and gives clarity to the readers. Sorry, I don't mean to critique your writing, I just personally feel - and possibly others that don't fully understand your posts - that giving a space in between different points is better for your readers.
        State the point, back-up the point, re-state. Than, move on to the next point.

        Pooka - 2. You've been getting into a couple of "brew-ha-ha's" with some posters here in the recent days, settle down, I'm not one of those strict guys/mods like CRF - who is an awesome mod by the way (actually they're all awesome mods, different in their own way, and trying to learn) - but you really should think about trying to give a more understanding tone. I get what you're trying to say in your posts, but I think readers are reading it in a different way.

        Everyone - 3. Let's lay off on the personal attacks, not just to you 'white men can't jump', you're a well respected poster around here. I don't care about swearing, hell - Fuck. Shit. Up. Cunts. - not just to other people, respect everyone here on RR regardless of what they say, how you feel, etc. Just saying, but the best comeback is being nice.

        Everyone's been getting testy around here lately, I love the passion, let's just stay within the borders, not jump out of bounds.
        Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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        • #34
          RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
          I would rather trade Derozan, because if BOTH Bargnani and Amir are traded, our front-court is significantly thin. For the wing position, with Derozan gone, and assuming the receiving value is a big (meaning no wing in return), we have Gay/Ross/Fields, likely Anderson or another third stringer gets signed, and the team has a 4-man wing rotation.

          Although, if that all-star calibre guy IS Josh Smith, or some type of big - who also stays long-term - than it would be foolish for BC not to entertain any calls. Like I said though, I would rather put Derozan/Bargnani on the table.
          This is basically what I was getting at before pooka was trying to spawn some hate toward me....Amir is a very solid role player, but a role player is easier to replace than a core piece, and thus expendable if it can help the team upgrade said core. Would replacing him be easy? No....but they would be a better team in such a situation than if they kept him with a worse core. Amir is the "glue" that helps solidify the "foundation", but glue can't change a clay/mud foundation into stone/concrete.

          Ideally they can keep Amir and upgrade the core without losing him, especially since it would make them thin up front, but it's not as urgent as evaluating/finalizing said foundation.

          I've also been one of the ONLY people (who posts a lot) I can think of who since long before the trade deadline was against getting big name PFs to replace Amir, and think the best situation is finding another strong role player with different strengths, hence my mancrush on Ersan Ilyasova since I think he and Amir would make the perfect PF tandem as role players on the Raps. So I do consider myself a huge Amir supporter, but again, I also try to look at the "real" picture. He is not untouchable. And while he can start, it's a little funny, to say the least, to throw his name out there even just for fun with guys like Rodman and Mutombo.

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          • #35
            white men can't jump wrote: View Post
            This is basically what I was getting at before pooka was trying to spawn some hate toward me....Amir is a very solid role player, but a role player is easier to replace than a core piece, and thus expendable if it can help the team upgrade said core. Would replacing him be easy? No....but they would be a better team in such a situation than if they kept him with a worse core. Amir is the "glue" that helps solidify the "foundation", but glue can't change a clay/mud foundation into stone/concrete.

            Ideally they can keep Amir and upgrade the core without losing him, especially since it would make them thin up front, but it's not as urgent as evaluating/finalizing said foundation.

            I've also been one of the ONLY people (who posts a lot) I can think of who since long before the trade deadline was against getting big name PFs to replace Amir, and think the best situation is finding another strong role player with different strengths, hence my mancrush on Ersan Ilyasova since I think he and Amir would make the perfect PF tandem as role players on the Raps. So I do consider myself a huge Amir supporter, but again, I also try to look at the "real" picture. He is not untouchable. And while he can start, it's a little funny, to say the least, to throw his name out there even just for fun with guys like Rodman and Mutombo.
            I'd really like to get him as well. Sadly, I don't see how it is possible. The only hope might be taking on Gooden along with Ilyasova.

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            • #36
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              I'd really like to get him as well. Sadly, I don't see how it is possible. The only hope might be taking on Gooden along with Ilyasova.
              I think I'd be ok with that....

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              • #37
                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                I think I'd be ok with that....
                I would as well.

                Gooden's deal runs as long as Bargnani's.

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                • #38
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  I'd really like to get him as well. Sadly, I don't see how it is possible. The only hope might be taking on Gooden along with Ilyasova.
                  It seemed possible when he started the season badly too. He's been playing like crazy (for him) for the last couple of months. BTW, Ersan's rebounding total against Miami...17 (7 O, 10 D), and past three games 11, 17(miami), 12.

                  Sadly, though, I have to agree with you, and now it seems damn near impossible. Oh well. I can still dream about the 3 big rotation of JV/Amir/Ersan. So much rebounding and offensive flexibility...

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                  • #39
                    RaptorReuben wrote: View Post

                    Pooka - 2. You've been getting into a couple of "brew-ha-ha's" with some posters here in the recent days, settle down, I'm not one of those strict guys/mods like CRF - who is an awesome mod by the way (actually they're all awesome mods, different in their own way, and trying to learn) - but you really should think about trying to give a more understanding tone. I get what you're trying to say in your posts, but I think readers are reading it in a different way.
                    Jeeeeeez, what the hell is up with the hissy fits going on? (not speaking of you, but others). I've been getting into "brew-ha-ha's", you say? Perhaps the question I would ask is who is turning them into such. In this exchange:

                    - when I thought the discussion was civilized (please show me if I'm wrong), I was suddenly accused of creating "condescending shouting matches". Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing of the kind was happening. I see that as some sort of whiney (my opinion not previously expressed) re-direct away from a weak argument. I asked the dude where he gets this from, as in don't just spew accusations and run away behind someone else's shouted opinion, so that I might be better in the future.
                    - He responds with calling me "colossal douche bag"
                    - You say settle down guys
                    - He comes back with some delusion of how I apparently was "was trying to spawn some hate toward" him. Huh? How am/was I doing this?

                    Opinions are great. We all have them, but what are the forum rules for expressing disagreement? This isn't sitting around the campfire singing Kumbaya, is it? I've no problem getting straightened out on my manner at any given point in time, but I can't take the fall for people spewing past images as some inaccurate deflection of a current discussion, then calling me names in their hissy fit, before claiming imaginary conspiracy to spawn hatred toward him.

                    If I caused what you feel is a "brew-ha-ha", please show me where I screwed up and was so offensive, because I've seen much worse on here, with no reprimands.

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                    • #40
                      p00ka wrote: View Post
                      Jeeeeeez, what the hell is up with the hissy fits going on? (not speaking of you, but others). I've been getting into "brew-ha-ha's", you say? Perhaps the question I would ask is who is turning them into such. In this exchange:

                      - when I thought the discussion was civilized (please show me if I'm wrong), I was suddenly accused of creating "condescending shouting matches". Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing of the kind was happening. I see that as some sort of whiney (my opinion not previously expressed) re-direct away from a weak argument. I asked the dude where he gets this from, as in don't just spew accusations and run away behind someone else's shouted opinion, so that I might be better in the future.
                      - He responds with calling me "colossal douche bag"
                      - You say settle down guys
                      - He comes back with some delusion of how I apparently was "was trying to spawn some hate toward" him. Huh? How am/was I doing this?

                      Opinions are great. We all have them, but what are the forum rules for expressing disagreement? This isn't sitting around the campfire singing Kumbaya, is it? I've no problem getting straightened out on my manner at any given point in time, but I can't take the fall for people spewing past images as some inaccurate deflection of a current discussion, then calling me names in their hissy fit, before claiming imaginary conspiracy to spawn hatred toward him.

                      If I caused what you feel is a "brew-ha-ha", please show me where I screwed up and was so offensive, because I've seen much worse on here, with no reprimands.
                      Just to put it simply....it is condescending because you immediately took a view opposed to mine, belittled mine, and pretended that I was arguing on things taken out of context in my original reply to NoFrillz's post. You then proceeded to do the exact same things and only use one or two parts of sentences in quoting me to argue against me and invalidate my points. You tried to spin/twist my argument to make me sound like an Amir hater who didn't know anything, which is clearly not the case, and you would've known that if you paid attention to my whole posts.

                      I quote you here, to help understand why you're being douchey:
                      "If you restrict your attention span to a sentence here or there..." which is exactly how you started arguing against me. Immediately attacking me before 'making your points'. Maybe my posts weren't clear, but you clearly didn't make the effort to actually understand them. You were just interested in taking the isolated, out of context points you disagree on and passive aggressively attacking me with them. Well, you can keep going if you want. I'm done.

                      *I've also tried to keep the discussion, even this shitty one with you, on Amir, even if I throw in some jabs at you...but you keep coming back to attacking me...
                      your 1st post.."Unbelievable, isn't it? As is the response you got from 'white men can't jump'..."
                      2nd one "If you restrict your attention span to a sentence here or there..."
                      3rd one...attacking me with my own quotes taken out of context (douche alert)
                      4th one...not even mentioning Amir, again just trying to paint me as a reactionary fool or something...
                      So do you have any of your own thoughts on Amir? Or are you just going to use other people's points to start arguments with others? Everything you are saying seems more about putting me down than making an actual point...
                      Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon Mar 18, 2013, 12:11 PM.

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                      • #41
                        white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                        It seemed possible when he started the season badly too. He's been playing like crazy (for him) for the last couple of months. BTW, Ersan's rebounding total against Miami...17 (7 O, 10 D), and past three games 11, 17(miami), 12.

                        Sadly, though, I have to agree with you, and now it seems damn near impossible. Oh well. I can still dream about the 3 big rotation of JV/Amir/Ersan. So much rebounding and offensive flexibility...
                        He has started the last 2 seasons slow. Milwaukee should start training camp in August.

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                        • #42
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          He has started the last 2 seasons slow. Milwaukee should start training camp in August.
                          Yeah, I think they were a bit more alarmed when it happened this year (with no lockout), but he was able to regain his form well before the trade deadline...damn it.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            In the interest of trying to advance the discussion back on the topic of Amir, his place on the Raps and how to solidify the bigs while keeping him...I was wondering if people wanted to throw out suggestions for who they would like to see play in that main 3 big rotation? I know some still want a big trade for a guy like Boozer or Gasol. I'm somewhat ok with Gasol for just a year, and less ok with Boozer for 2. I would prefer another role player, a complimentary piece. So I'll start with a few guys I've seen in rumors (not necessarily just Raptors related) or could be free agents this summer, and ranked loosely (mostly just sure about my first and last option) for who I think fits.

                            1- Ersan Ilyasova (least likely but I think the best option out there. Would probably depend a bit too much on a) the Bucks expecting a worse season next year, and b) the Raps taking Gooden back.). Adds a high quality shooter at one of the team's holes. This is not about replacing Bargs, it's about actual versatility and best fit with JV/Amir. He's a very good rebounder and defender. Has been playing really well for Milwaukee, so I don't know why they would change their mind about him now, unless as a small market, if they don't expect to have a good shot at the playoffs next season, they decide to shed some salary and tank.

                            2- Carl Landry...who knows..in a trade? if he opts out? He could be an option either way. Adds similar things to Boozer offensively in that he scores at the rim off post moves, and has a solid mid-range jumper. A good rebounder who generally plays with a high motor, but not the most gifted defender, partly due to his lack of length.

                            3 - Andray Blatche...A season ago I wouldn't have touched this guy with a 10 foot pole, but being in a demanding situation with the Nets, under at tough coach in Johnson (before he was fired), seemed really good for him. Has the tools to play both F and C, so fits well next to JV and Amir. Nice mix of offensive skills, good rebounder, but with him it has always been about attitude/effort and consistency. Hard to judge the market for him given his past. BKL has a massive payroll, and he's unrestricted. Might be worth a gamble, and might be the most worthwhile option aside from Ersan from a talent perspective.

                            4 - Big Baby Davis...Saw a rumor that he was probably going to be shopped by Orlando as they will fully commit to a rebuild. Brings size, rebounding and decent scoring at the PF spot, be it starting, or preferably off the bench. I'm not his biggest fan, but he would seem to be a good fit next to both JV and Amir. He actually has deep playoff experience as well, though I have no clue what to make of his character.

                            5 - JJ Hickson...probably the most limited player in skill set, but an athletic beast. Questionable instincts and ball IQ, but can play with a high motor and do a lot of damage hustling on both ends as a space filler and rebounder. Like Blatche, I think very hard to judge his market given the mix of his skill-set not really having expanded and current production being bonkers. Will teams shop for him like a starter or bench player? I think he's a bench player, but we'll see what happens.

                            These are some less big names, that might be available in Bargs deals, or more importantly, might be options if the Raptors can find a way to have the full MLE to shop with by shedding some dollars before free agency opens up. I think they all could fit well next to JV and Amir, and that's how I tried to rank them, but of course, that's just my opinion/preference. They would all actually be very good bench players, would allow Amir to start next to JV, and many of them add scoring dimensions that could help this team. Thoughts? Other names?
                            Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon Mar 18, 2013, 08:29 PM.

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                            • #44
                              p00ka wrote: View Post
                              If you restrict your attention span to a sentence here or there, then you're right that he compared Amir to Rodman and Gay, but if you're able to pay attention to the whole post, he's not doing that at all, but speaking to the concept of players being valuable starters on a good/very good team despite certain weaknesses, and so much of that depends on the blend of starting players. Yes, it was inaccurate to say Amir is a better offensive rebounder, but that's nit-picking a detail and overlooking the essence of the post that Amir doesn't need to be an all star that's strong at everything to be a valuable starter, in particular on a team with the make-up of the Raps.
                              +1!!!

                              Thank you Pooka. That is why I prefaced my example with "it's an extreme example". My hope was that people would understand that I wasn't necessarily putting Amir in the same category as those potential hall-of-famers. My point was that despite having limitations, players can be very valuable starters. My examples of Rodman and Mutombo were to illustrate the point of great starters who had huge deficiencies in other areas.

                              That was used as a segway to show that Amir has fewer deficiencies than most people give him credit for. He has a better all-around game than many successful starters throughout the history of the NBA. To say that he isn't starter material without considering the pieces around him would be to neglect the history of the game.

                              I'm glad that at least Pooka was able to inference the main idea of my post. It's like someone making a point/theme about the Brooklyn Nets, but they mistakenly called them New Jersey Nets--and White Men comes along and completely discredits and overlooks the main idea because of the mistaken city name.

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                              • #45
                                RaptorReuben wrote:
                                P.S, his name is Nilanka, not Nilballsa.
                                I'm going to call you RaptorBooben from now on.

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