Disappointing Season, Optimistic Outlook

[Raptor_11]

And look at the teams Toronto has played:

Atlanta
Knicks x2
Miami x2
Boston x2
Indiana x2
Denver
LA Clippers
Memphis
Milwaukee
Golden State

You are reaching when you include Mavs and Blazers. Both are under .500.

I'm not ignoring the stats - you are my friend. TOronto is 10-11 since trade. Detroit is 6-15. Detroit is worse offensively and defensively than before the trade.

You lack of objectivity is especially telling with the bold statement. The Raptors are a better team now than they were before the trade.

You delusions with the memory of Jose is especially telling with the underlined statement. You clearly don't remember Jose pounding the ball as players stood watching one guy run off screens and the consistent 6-8 minutes stretches without a field goal. The Raptors offense was shit with Calderon and it is still shit without him. Miami put on a ball movement clinic today. The Raptors had no ball movement with Jose and they have no ball movement without him.

+1. these point guard arguments are stupid. Jose and Lowry can both run a team, but this teams offense is setting them up to look bad

[golden]

For shits and giggles, how has Jose fared starting in Detroit?

6-15 for .286 winning percentage

How were Detroit doing before trade?

17-29 for .370 winning percentage

Jose has been great personally shooting 50% from field, 50% from 3pt, 90% from ft with 11.8 points and 7.3 assists. Unfortunately that is not helping Detroit win anymore games nor is the 102.1ppg they are allowing with Jose starting. Prior to the trade they were giving up just 96.7ppg.

Surely though Jose has helped Detroit's offense.... right? Prior to trade, 94.6ppg forced. Since trade, 94.0ppg.


There are all sorts of factors that could play in to this so I don't wish to make too many conclusions based upon this. However, using the numbers as you have initially it would appear Toronto is better off starting Kyle Lowry without Bargnani than starting Jose Calderon without Bargnani. Also it would appear Detroit was better offensively and defensively prior to the trade for Calderon.

Many factors for Detroit's swoon, but right up there is when Andre Drummond went out. Piston's were right on the edge of winning/losing games, and Drummond was the highest PER & best DRTG on the team. Even in limited minutes (~20MPG), it's tough to lose a difference maker like that when your margin for winning & losing is slim.

[ReubenJRD]

Totally agree with Matt, at this point, the point guard hasn't been the problem (when has it been in the last couple years in general?). It's the coaching and the system put in place to run the offense, the sets are poorly executed, and it breaks down far too often, and too easily, which allows defenses to really buckle down, and make the offense take bad shots, take poor possessions i.e forcing the ball into Gay's hands to make plays in iso, which is 75% of the time.

[psrs1]

I believe that is circumstantial and coincidental at best as I recently learned.

But seriously, what is the point of this? How many times have people brought this up? Jose is gone and most likely never to return. The Raptors were losers for 5 years with Jose. Get over it.


But to play with those game samples:

Before trade, Lowry never started without Bargnani which, in my opinion, is huge.

Jose starting with Bargnani starting: 0-0 (lucky mothafocka)

Jose starting vs. playoff teams: 1-8

Jose started 16 of 25 games vs. non playoff teams.

Jose started 15 of 25 games at HOME.


Since trade, Lowry starting:

10-11 with 14 playoff opponents.

Remove Bargnani again, Lowry starting:

9-8


For shits and giggles, how has Jose fared starting in Detroit?

6-15 for .286 winning percentage

How were Detroit doing before trade?

17-29 for .370 winning percentage

Jose has been great personally shooting 50% from field, 50% from 3pt, 90% from ft with 11.8 points and 7.3 assists. Unfortunately that is not helping Detroit win anymore games nor is the 102.1ppg they are allowing with Jose starting. Prior to the trade they were giving up just 96.7ppg.

Surely though Jose has helped Detroit's offense.... right? Prior to trade, 94.6ppg forced. Since trade, 94.0ppg.


There are all sorts of factors that could play in to this so I don't wish to make too many conclusions based upon this. However, using the numbers as you have initially it would appear Toronto is better off starting Kyle Lowry without Bargnani than starting Jose Calderon without Bargnani. Also it would appear Detroit was better offensively and defensively prior to the trade for Calderon.

This no surprise. We all know that Jose is a terrible defnder.

[Matt52]

This no surprise. We all know that Jose is a terrible defnder.

Calderon fans are not

[Burnit482]

Going back to the point about PF i dont really care if Amir starts or comes off the bench. We need another big of a similar talent level. The only "talented" big i would really take is Gasol for his mentorship of JV and his passing/postup game. We all know hes injury prone but hey we had bargs... cant get much worse tbh.

The perfect PF for us i believe is Brandon Bass. Now, i have no idea if we could get him or not but hes a great shooter which i believe we need, hard working rebounder, has size, plays defence and has been apart of a winning program. I think he would be a perfect fit, if we can get him or not who knows, i did hear Boston had interest in Bargs... depends how much i guess.

[Rapstor4Life]

Brandon Bass would be great. Solid Vet not to mention stays healthy.

[Mediumcore]

I've learned to try and temper my optimism. Each year is the same story in that we have a terrible season, but you can see clear paths to improvement, however each year the team finds a way to get back to mediocrity. Actually mediocrity is what we were in the Bosh era and sadly we care currently trying to get back to that stage.

We went into this season thinking our 12th ranked defense (I beleive) from last season could take another step forward with Lowry at the point, a legit sized C in JV, DD and ED with another year of experience and time to improve their D and with the only set back I saw being the switch from JJ to Fields. I think our defense regressing to Triano levels was the most disappointing aspect of this entire season for me. I really don't even care about Bargnani's lack of production because I thought our defense is what we'd be able to hang our hat on every night, but then the basketball gods laid a big ole' steaming pile of crap on our team. Can't wait to see what they have planned for us next season!

[mountio]

I'm probably a sucker but I am expecting a return to Landry of rookie year. Basically doing all the things he does now but the ability to shoot will return. Yes, I know, still overpaid.

I hate to say it .. but I think you are a sucker on this one. His regression from a shooting standpoint was considerable last year, and is even worse this year. I just dont see him going from a guy who literally has zero confidence shooting outside of 10 feet right now to a legitimate NBA jumpshooting threat. That doesnt mean he cant give us some solid minutes (we have lots of guys who like to shoot) .. cutting to the hoop, playing D, running the break. Basically everything that AA should do now, except he ruins by chucking non stop.

[Nilanka]

I hate to say it .. but I think you are a sucker on this one. His regression from a shooting standpoint was considerable last year, and is even worse this year. I just dont see him going from a guy who literally has zero confidence shooting outside of 10 feet right now to a legitimate NBA jumpshooting threat. That doesnt mean he cant give us some solid minutes (we have lots of guys who like to shoot) .. cutting to the hoop, playing D, running the break. Basically everything that AA should do now, except he ruins by chucking non stop.

I think it comes down to whether or not Landry commits to reconstructing his shot this summer. And I mean, full on changing the mechanics of how he holds/releases the ball. Because nobody who shot-puts the ball (with zero arc) will ever shoot high percentages.

[Raptor_11]

I think it comes down to whether or not Landry commits to reconstructing his shot this summer. And I mean, full on changing the mechanics of how he holds/releases the ball. Because nobody who shot-puts the ball (with zero arc) will ever shoot high percentages.

If he doesn't commit to becoming a good shooter, than he must be mentally ill. Any wing player in the NBA knows they need a decent outside shot to be of any relevance to their team. Even Demar has come a long way

[slaw]

"Disappointing Season, Optimistic Outlook"

Sounds like the Raptors have a new official motto.

[vino]

I've learned to try and temper my optimism. Each year is the same story in that we have a terrible season, but you can see clear paths to improvement, however each year the team finds a way to get back to mediocrity. Actually mediocrity is what we were in the Bosh era and sadly we care currently trying to get back to that stage.

We went into this season thinking our 12th ranked defense (I beleive) from last season could take another step forward with Lowry at the point, a legit sized C in JV, DD and ED with another year of experience and time to improve their D and with the only set back I saw being the switch from JJ to Fields. I think our defense regressing to Triano levels was the most disappointing aspect of this entire season for me. I really don't even care about Bargnani's lack of production because I thought our defense is what we'd be able to hang our hat on every night, but then the basketball gods laid a big ole' steaming pile of crap on our team. Can't wait to see what they have planned for us next season!

Good healthy discussion here! nice thread.

Agree with the sentiment of bad D dissapointment. What has happened to pounding that rock?!
On a bright side... there is a place for optimism for the next season. For me, personally its JV. His development will solidify the D - ala "Irving stop" as early as next season. By the way, he's put up some nice post moves in consequtive games now. This is as good as it gets for me at this point. We just might have something very special!

As for PF debate - I'd like to see Acy develop into poor man's Amir. Yeah, it would be ideal to have some one like Bass with defined roles for each player (Toronto issues?!) but there is a risk of team chemistry - another controversy, who starts: Amir or Bass?? Some may say Amir is a true professional/has been coming off the bench before; I'd say- leave the guy in the starting five. He is the motor behind this team. He's been nothing but spectacular this season! Limited skill, but all heart. One of the bigs gotta have post moves - it's true to be successfull any team needs at least one. Looks like JV could be this dude for us.

Finally, my two cents on expectations... as I've said before, this team as-is with the natural development/chemistry is at least 0.500 team, which is typically good enough for a 6-7 seed in the East. I think this should be our expectations, and front offcie evaluation criteria, for the next season. Would this satisfy me as a fan long term? No! I want a contender. Currently, the Raps are not there and I have not heard the brass laying a solid plan to get there but its another topic for discussion.

[Matt52]

I hate to say it .. but I think you are a sucker on this one. His regression from a shooting standpoint was considerable last year, and is even worse this year. I just dont see him going from a guy who literally has zero confidence shooting outside of 10 feet right now to a legitimate NBA jumpshooting threat. That doesnt mean he cant give us some solid minutes (we have lots of guys who like to shoot) .. cutting to the hoop, playing D, running the break. Basically everything that AA should do now, except he ruins by chucking non stop.

My opinion is based on the video of his rookie year to early this season shooting form.

Call me a sucker again but the nerve damage in his elbow caused him to adjust his shot for the better part of 2 years. Now that the issue has been resolved combined with a summer of shooting to return to his 'native' form, I think he can return close to his rookie numbers. His jumper of late has not caused me to cover my children's eyes so that is an improvement.

We'll see.

[white men can't jump]

My opinion is based on the video of his rookie year to early this season shooting form.

Call me a sucker again but the nerve damage in his elbow caused him to adjust his shot for the better part of 2 years. Now that the issue has been resolved combined with a summer of shooting to return to his 'native' form, I think he can return close to his rookie numbers. His jumper of late has not caused me to cover my children's eyes so that is an improvement.

We'll see.

Yeah, if you go even further back, it looks totally fine in college too...Something clearly happened (elbow issue I guess?) to totally mess up his own shot. I also hope that because of this, he can regain his old form. Like you say though, we'll see.

[Axel]

No matter who the Raps start next year, the team will eventually need to find a low post scorer. Can JV develop a low-post game? Perhaps and hopefully so, but Amir is way too much of a jump shooter. We need someone who gets the attention of the defence (and some double-teams) to create space for the plethora of slashers we have. David West is the proto-type I think we need, but unfortunately there aren't a lot of these guys left in the league.

[white men can't jump]

No matter who the Raps start next year, the team will eventually need to find a low post scorer. Can JV develop a low-post game? Perhaps and hopefully so, but Amir is way too much of a jump shooter. We need someone who gets the attention of the defence (and some double-teams) to create space for the plethora of slashers we have. David West is the proto-type I think we need, but unfortunately there aren't a lot of these guys left in the league.

I think JV will get there faster than people think. His post skills are quite strong, and more importantly, some of the fundamental ones that involve practice (footwork, positioning) are already better than any big this team has ever had (not that that's too hard). Really, his positioning on the block is fantastic for a player in this generation. So many big men have no idea how to plant themselves on the block. He's really difficult to front, or pester with arms/energy. He just gets you on his hip and totally seals you off. Love it.

[Rapstor4Life]

JV has the ability to be a consistent low post guy some of the moves he does in games just catch other Cs (not named Demarcus Cousins) completely off guard.

JV is very Tenacious.

[special1]

I think JV will get there faster than people think. His post skills are quite strong, and more importantly, some of the fundamental ones that involve practice (footwork, positioning) are already better than any big this team has ever had (not that that's too hard). Really, his positioning on the block is fantastic for a player in this generation. So many big men have no idea how to plant themselves on the block. He's really difficult to front, or pester with arms/energy. He just gets you on his hip and totally seals you off. Love it.

I agree.

If I were coaching this team, we would be running plays (post up plays) consistently for JV. The sooner he develops the confidence and moves in the post, the better this team will be.

My favourite thing about JV is his heart and energy. We need a PF/C who bangs, gets rebounds, plays inside and JV does all these things well. Did you see how well he played against Dwight Howard?? I must admit he's better than i expected. All he needs is more experience (defensive positioning and avoid picking up ticky tac fouls), hard work during the off-season (post moves - he's already a decent shooter) and he needs to get bigger/stronger.

If he can put the work in...The sky is the limit for JV.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I agree.

If I were coaching this team, we would be running plays (post up plays) consistently for JV. The sooner he develops the confidence and moves in the post, the better this team will be.

My favourite thing about JV is his heart and energy. We need a PF/C who bangs, gets rebounds, plays inside and JV does all these things well. Did you see how well he played against Dwight Howard?? I must admit he's better than i expected. All he needs is more experience (defensive positioning and avoid picking up ticky tac fouls), hard work during the off-season (post moves - he's already a decent shooter) and he needs to get bigger/stronger.

If he can put the work in...The sky is the limit for JV.

I agree with you for the long-term, but I don't think it's fair to expect JV to be a focal point of the team's offense next year or even the year after, certainly not to the point that he'll be expected to consistently draw double-teams to open the court for the team's shooters & slashers. The potential is definitely there, as is the heart & hustle, but we have to remember just how young and raw he still is!

I'm still convinced the team needs an upgraded starting PF. Not only will it improve the starting unit, but having Johnson coming off the bench will make the 2nd unit that much stronger. I really like how a 3-big rotation of ???/JV/Johnson shapes up, with Gay/Fields even capable of playing spot minutes at PF in small-ball lineups.

Ideally a trade package consisting of Bargnani & future 1st round pick will suffice, otherwise what legit option for trade/S&T is there? DeRozan?