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Thread: Disappointing Season, Optimistic Outlook

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    I have to disagree with Boston Rondo healthy + sullinger healthy + Green + Lee They will be a good ball club for a while they have youth on the team already putting pieces together for when Pierce and Garnett retire.

    To answer my own question I think without Bargnani we would be a playoff team. The proof is in that pudding.
    Last edited by Rapstor4Life; Tue Mar 19th, 2013 at 12:10 PM.

  2. #62
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Isn't the point of collecting young/cheap assets that can be mixed with cap flexibility, ultimately using them to land a big-time, high-priced player that the team couldn't otherwise attract? Isn't that exactly what BC did to acquire Gay?

    I totally understand your point - I was strongly in favor of a full rebuild immediately in the wake of the Bosh trade (and I think they blew the chance to tank last year while their #1 pick - JV - was still overseas). I'm just playing devil's advocate a little bit because sometimes I get frustrated when people talk about collecting 1st round picks year after year, seemingly in the hopes of lucking into the next LBJ or KD, as the 'OKC model' of franchise rebuilding. Isn't that approach just another 'treadmill', but just one in the lottery instead of on the playoff bubble, still dependent on lottery luck and drafting luck, to land a superstar?

    The Raptors did rebuild - they drafted pretty well for 4 straight years in the lottery - DeRozan, Davis, Valanciunas, Ross. They cashed in a redundant young player (Davis) and an expiring veteran contract (Calderon) for a very good, young SF (Gay). I know that the financial flexibiliy and rebuilding/building plan seems shot now, but I personally think that has as much to do with guys like Bargnani ($11M next season), DeRozan ($9.5M), Kleiza ($4.6M) and Fields ($6.2M), as it does with the Gay acquisition. If Bargnani's salary can be dumped, Kleiza is amnestied, DeRozan is flipped for the traditional star starting PF the majority seems to want and Fields can earn his paycheque, then suddenly I think the team would be in a very good place, both in terms of finances and young talent.
    I feel that Gay's one of the worst players that BC could have parlayed the team's assets/flexibility into, because he almost guarantees that the team will be middling-good, but not elite. His contract just eats up too much cap space, and his output doesn't justify it. I know there's some people who'll argue this, but that's my opinion.

    I'm sure that Daryl Morey could have had Gay twenty times over the past couple of years. He showed an incredible amount of patience. He was playing the "collecting assets" game for a long time, to the point where people started wondering if it could ever work, people started saying that he might get fired. But he was patient and he finally got a legit first option. Is there anyone on here who wouldn't trade Gay for Harden in a instant? What about Gay and Jonas? Or Gay, Jonas and Ross? I'd make that trade, but I don't think Morey would.

  3. #63
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    I feel that Gay's one of the worst players that BC could have parlayed the team's assets/flexibility into, because he almost guarantees that the team will be middling-good, but not elite. His contract just eats up too much cap space, and his output doesn't justify it. I know there's some people who'll argue this, but that's my opinion.

    I'm sure that Daryl Morey could have had Gay twenty times over the past couple of years. He showed an incredible amount of patience. He was playing the "collecting assets" game for a long time, to the point where people started wondering if it could ever work, people started saying that he might get fired. But he was patient and he finally got a legit first option. Is there anyone on here who wouldn't trade Gay for Harden in a instant? What about Gay and Jonas? Or Gay, Jonas and Ross? I'd make that trade, but I don't think Morey would.
    I'd rather have Gay/Jonas/Ross than Harden....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  4. #64
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    If ALL those things happen, then yes, we'd be in a far more desirable situation than we are currently in today.
    haha I never said it was easy, just that there is room for optimism for the time being... BC has the entire offseason to crush our hopes! lol

  5. #65
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    I feel that Gay's one of the worst players that BC could have parlayed the team's assets/flexibility into, because he almost guarantees that the team will be middling-good, but not elite. His contract just eats up too much cap space, and his output doesn't justify it. I know there's some people who'll argue this, but that's my opinion.

    I'm sure that Daryl Morey could have had Gay twenty times over the past couple of years. He showed an incredible amount of patience. He was playing the "collecting assets" game for a long time, to the point where people started wondering if it could ever work, people started saying that he might get fired. But he was patient and he finally got a legit first option. Is there anyone on here who wouldn't trade Gay for Harden in a instant? What about Gay and Jonas? Or Gay, Jonas and Ross? I'd make that trade, but I don't think Morey would.
    yes, I would trade Gay for Harden. I would trade any combination of our players for Harden...except Jonas. He is actually untouchable to me. I would trade him for LeBron, or maybe KD, which is never going to happen.

    I don't know why anyone would be willing to part with a C prospect like Jonas.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Mar 19th, 2013 at 12:24 PM.

  6. #66
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    Thanks to all for the positive feedback on my write-up. I've been thinking lately about starting a blog or something in the near future, but I don't know yet, if it's going to be sports related, as I got some other interests. Recently I did several write-ups in different areas just to try myself and it's fun...

    But back to Raps. I understand that each season for the Raptors so far has started with optimism and then the inevitable disappointment, but this time around there is a legitimate reason for optimism. Multiple ones, actually.

    The overall talent level was never that balanced across all positions. In other words, we're basically mimicking the Indiana Pacers, Memphis Grizzlies model, where all 5 positions are pretty good. One Raptor might become an all-star next year (Rudy, DeRozan?), provided the team has a good record. But it's more about the balance being at a relatively high level.

    Another major reason for optimism amongst others, is that other teams in the east are more likely to get worse than improve next year and beyond. CalgaryRapsFan pointed out the reasons for that and I agree with him 100%. The only sure thing in the east is Miami. Every other team has room to dis-improve. Yeah, I just invented that word.
    Last edited by BadDinosaur; Tue Mar 19th, 2013 at 12:35 PM.

  7. #67
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    yes, I would trade Gay for Harden. I would trade any combination of our players for Harden...except Jonas. He is actually untouchable to me. I would trade him for LeBron, or maybe KD, which is never going to happen.

    I don't know why anyone would be willing to part with a C prospect like Jonas.
    I love Jonas, he's easily my favourite Raptor right now and pretty much the only reason I still watch games, but it's hard to say exactly what his ceiling is. There's very few players that I'd trade him away for, and Harden is one of them.

    Incidentally, I remember hearing that when Presti was looking for places to move Harden, Toronto was on his list, with Jonas being the centrepiece of the deal...

  8. #68
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    And this is where I too often find where fans 'optimism' comes from. Overvaluing the players on the team, and 'potential' without results (usually based on age).

    Now this isn't a Raptors thing, this is league wide thing (although Andrea Bargnani being a glaring example of local evidence). I mentioned this in the offseason and used the pre-Cho Bobcats as an example. So many Charlotte fans were excited about the Bobcats because they supposedly had such a great mix of talent, potential, youth and experience. They were a dominant defensive team, had a high quality coach and were just about to explode onto the NBA after having just made the playoffs.

    Wallace was their untouchable allstar, who while not a 'superstar' was as close as they come. Felton was top 10 PG and the best defensive PG in the NBA. Jackson was the savy vet who could take over games. Tyrus Thomas had limitless potential and was just in the wrong mental place while in Chicago and a coach like Brown and the budding Charlotte 'defense and winning' culture would fix that. Then they had Henderson/White/Brown/Augustine who were going to be great talents (who just needed 'time'). On top of that had great trade assets in Chandler and Diaw + their 'high potential' players. The just needed 1 more peice......


    .... except no one wanted their peices, made worse by their ownership not wanting to spend (and dumping arguably their best player and trade chip in Chandler), their 'talent' wasn't that good, their players with 'potential' didn't have high ceilings, and most importantly - the peice(s) they actually needed (stars) are exceptionally rare and expensive

    Now I do think this Raps team is in better shape than the 2010 Bobcats (although that may just be me 'overvaluing talent' as a fan) but basically at the margins.


    -'Talent' needs to be proven on some level, over a period of time, not just assumed because of the style game a person plays. To explain, this year, I'd argue the 'potential' of Lilliard, Davis, Barnes and Drummond should be seen as much higher than Robinson or MKG or Rivers. Those 4 have shown it, and maintained it at differing levels, over the course of the season.

    - If you don't want a player on your team, you shouldn't expect someone else will. One man's trash may be another man's treasure. But most of the time its still just trash.

    -The NBA is a business, and we shouldn't expect all but the rarest of teams to spend with abandon.

    - Culture is a buzzword to explain away teams who can find talent where others don't or can't (San Anotonio, LA etc)

    - And perhaps most importantly, a superstar is the difference maker, and a player simply being 'the best on the team' is NOT, nor should it be accepted as, enough.


    Anyways I said I didn't want to be a debbie downer, and yet here I am probably doing it. So I'll try nor to ruin the fun anymore.
    Last edited by Craiger; Tue Mar 19th, 2013 at 01:34 PM.

  9. #69
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Does anyone remember the James Harden for Derozan + pick rumour thing? Apparently it was actually offered?

    Oh my god. Had that happened ACTUALLY....... Sorry, I'm fantasizing. But, had everything gone the way, WITH Gay trade?

    *sigh* #LifeOfARaptorFan

  10. #70
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    I have to disagree with Boston Rondo healthy + sullinger healthy + Green + Lee They will be a good ball club for a while they have youth on the team already putting pieces together for when Pierce and Garnett retire.

    To answer my own question I think without Bargnani we would be a playoff team. The proof is in that pudding.
    I agree, Boston would be a solid club down the road.

    Rondo, Bradley, Crawford, Green, Sullinger, Melo. They will not be contenders, but they will be looking at the playoffs every season. Don't forget Rondo is a star point guard, Green is a really solid player, and Sullinger will develop into something really nice down the road.

  11. #71
    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    And look at the teams Toronto has played:

    Atlanta
    Knicks x2
    Miami x2
    Boston x2
    Indiana x2
    Denver
    LA Clippers
    Memphis
    Milwaukee
    Golden State

    You are reaching when you include Mavs and Blazers. Both are under .500.

    I'm not ignoring the stats - you are my friend. TOronto is 10-11 since trade. Detroit is 6-15. Detroit is worse offensively and defensively than before the trade.

    You lack of objectivity is especially telling with the bold statement. The Raptors are a better team now than they were before the trade.

    You delusions with the memory of Jose is especially telling with the underlined statement. You clearly don't remember Jose pounding the ball as players stood watching one guy run off screens and the consistent 6-8 minutes stretches without a field goal. The Raptors offense was shit with Calderon and it is still shit without him. Miami put on a ball movement clinic today. The Raptors had no ball movement with Jose and they have no ball movement without him.
    Don't forget Drummond has been hurt for a while now (been out almost 5 week). He was a HUGE part of the Pistons defense.

  12. #72
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    I love Jonas, he's easily my favourite Raptor right now and pretty much the only reason I still watch games, but it's hard to say exactly what his ceiling is. There's very few players that I'd trade him away for, and Harden is one of them.

    Incidentally, I remember hearing that when Presti was looking for places to move Harden, Toronto was on his list, with Jonas being the centrepiece of the deal...
    Yeah, I was happy that deal never took place. Again, I would trade any other combination of players for Harden, but I guess I'm a bit old school, and would never trade a big who could be a franchise player for a guard who's closer to being one.

    Obviously, this is personal opinion, but on JV's ceiling, I think the sky is the limit. I can't think of a skill you want from your C that he hasn't shown multiple flashes of this season. And his notable areas of struggle are help D and fouling, which is normal for any rookie big. He looks like the complete package. I feel like his floor is a bigger/stronger, better scoring Joakim Noah. That sounds like a perennial all-star to me, and someone who might be in the conversation for best C in the game for years.

    In fact, if you sub C for SG up in the above paragraph, I'd say you could describe Harden at his earlier stage of development. Harden is actually my favorite SG in the league, and I remember people doubting if he was worth the pick in his rookie year, where he averaged 9 ppg off the bench on about 40% shooting. But he so obviously had all the tools you could possibly ever want in a SG. That's basically how I see JV as a C.

    So getting back to the original question...I was literally not kidding when I said I would trade any other combination of players for Harden...Then I would build the team around him and JV.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Mar 19th, 2013 at 02:29 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Not to be a debbie downer in this thread, but at what point do we realize or accept that 'optimism' has no impact on the results? It only offers a temporary distraction from reality
    Not to be a preacher but 'optimism' is not dependent on reason/s. It is not 'temporary'. If it is(temporary), it's not real.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  14. #74
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Not to be a preacher but 'optimism' is not dependent on reason/s. It is not 'temporary'. If it is(temporary), it's not real.
    And thats more or less the point.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    I agree, Boston would be a solid club down the road.

    Rondo, Bradley, Crawford, Green, Sullinger, Melo. They will not be contenders, but they will be looking at the playoffs every season. Don't forget Rondo is a star point guard, Green is a really solid player, and Sullinger will develop into something really nice down the road.
    That's IF rondo is still the same player after that injury

  16. #76
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    That's IF rondo is still the same player after that injury
    He Will be Rondo puts in work all season never stops balling, Im wondering if Rose will be the same player..

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    He Will be Rondo puts in work all season never stops balling, Im wondering if Rose will be the same player..
    You can put in all the work you want but if your body can't handle it there is no point. If that Acl tear is serious than no matter how much work he puts in he will never be the same player. Just cause your a hard worker that doesn't mean you can recover from any injury. Sometimes it's out of your hands, I'm Not saying he won't recover. I'm just saying he may not be the same player

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    That's IF rondo is still the same player after that injury
    It's a lot more likely Rondo is the same player compared to Derrick Rose. But it's basically 85% that Rondo is back to full form, while Rose is around 70%, reason being:

    Rondo doesn't use his athleticism other than running with the ball. Rose's is extremely reliant on his athleticism, to get from point A, to point B. The explosive step, the jumps for hanging in the air, his defense accounts for his own athleticism, and Rose might not have the full ability to rely on that as much, anymore. Rondo's game is very similar to Rubio, and Rubio in my opinion looks like an even BETTER player. That's really where the difference lies between the injuries translating in their games.

    I hope that Rose will return to full form, because he already mentioned he's having trouble, or still isn't confident with dunking off the left leg.

  19. #79
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    You can put in all the work you want but if your body can't handle it there is no point. If that Acl tear is serious than no matter how much work he puts in he will never be the same player. Just cause your a hard worker that doesn't mean you can recover from any injury. Sometimes it's out of your hands, I'm Not saying he won't recover. I'm just saying he may not be the same player
    Just saying, but athletes have returned (nowadays) from ACL/MCL tears, and have been at the very least the same athlete they were before, or better. Take a look at Ricky Rubio, Iman Shumpert, and Adrian Peterson of the Vikings.

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  21. #80
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Rondo I say has a much better shot at being the same player as he was rather than D Rose. Rondo fascilitates and drives, Derrick Rose is a lot more aggressive runs into bodies and scores on the attack. rose imo has more of a mental hurdle to play like how he was playing more than his body being up for it.

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