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Thread: Is rebounding still all that important?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Default Is rebounding still all that important?

    Historically, one of the most important stats for a team was how well they rebound. The logic is simple: more rebounds equals more possesions equals more wins. However we are seeing something a little different lately. The best team in the league, the Heat, is also the worst rebounding team in the league. The second best team, the Spurs are seventh worst. New York, Atlanta, Boston are three other playoff teams that are in the bottom ten, meaning five out of ten of the worst rebounding teams in the league are playoff teams.

    Now, if you look at the top 10 rebounding teams, 9 of them are in the playoffs (Wash is 6th) so maybe it's just that the Heat and Spurs are special, but it makes me wonder if rebounding is becomng less important as the league goes more and more periemeter oriented. Thoughts?
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I think you can get away with poor rebounding if you have top-tier elite talent at multiple positions...
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Rebounding is always important, but there are many more key areas for a team to excel in that can make up for it. I don't have the stats open, but with Miami, they are excellent defensively and cause turnovers. Thus while they might give up too many offensive rebounds, they also tend to limit quality possessions the other team gets, as well as make up for some of those rebounds by getting points off turnovers. A good/great team can basically have one or two weaknesses if in most of the other key areas it is very strong/elite.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I don't think any one statistic can be used to draw any conclusions (except The Bargnani Effect - that sh!t is real).

    While SA, NY, ATL, and BOS are poor rebounding teams they have strengths in other areas which I think more than make up for poor rebounding - namely FG%, oppFG%, and 3pt made.

    Looking at FG%:
    1) MIA
    2) SAS
    7) ATL
    9) BOS

    OppFG%:
    4) BOS
    8) SAS
    9) MIA
    13) ATL

    3pt made:
    2) NY
    4) ATL
    5) SAS
    8) MIA
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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I think you can get away with poor rebounding if you have top-tier elite talent at multiple positions...
    Yes, but why? I actually started this thread because I'm confused and am looking fo insight.

    I mean I understand that the Heat and Spurs shoot rediculously high percentages as teams (like 49% each), which means that there aren't as many offensive rebounds and they need fewer possessions to score a lot of points. So is it that their rebounding numbers only look low because there are fewer overall rebounds and they are still good rebounding teams? I'm just curious if having guys who score at a high percentage is now more important than having elite ebounding, which was not the case in the past.

    Either way, life's looking good for Amir Johnson.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't think any one statistic can be used to draw any conclusions (except The Bargnani Effect - that sh!t is real).

    While SA, NY, ATL, and BOS are poor rebounding teams they have strengths in other areas which I think more than make up for poor rebounding - namely FG%, oppFG%, and 3pt made.

    Looking at FG%:
    1) MIA
    2) SAS
    7) ATL
    9) BOS

    OppFG%:
    4) BOS
    8) SAS
    9) MIA
    13) ATL

    3pt made:
    2) NY
    4) ATL
    5) SAS
    8) MIA
    That one confuses me even more. So the other team shoots a low percentage...so there are more rebounds available and your still unable to grab any. The Fg% and 3-pointers make sense though.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Yes, but why? I actually started this thread because I'm confused and am looking fo insight.

    I mean I understand that the Heat and Spurs shoot rediculously high percentages as teams (like 49% each), which means that there aren't as many offensive rebounds and they need fewer possessions to score a lot of points. So is it that their rebounding numbers only look low because there are fewer overall rebounds and they are still good rebounding teams? I'm just curious if having guys who score at a high percentage is now more important than having elite ebounding, which was not the case in the past.

    Either way, life's looking good for Amir Johnson.
    I wish I could send you a link to this thing I saw one time....I don't know if it was NBa on TNT, or NBAtv, or ESPN....one of the major networks. And they were doing this sort of summary of the type of thing you're talking about. It was something like 8 key stats, and basically, an elite team like MIA could be dead last in one or even two categories because they're at/near the top in all others. Again, the segment stressed that it doesn't matter which areas are weakest...could be rebounding, or D, or shooting, or getting to the line...as long as a team excels in the other areas. I don't remember all the stats, but they were not advanced, just simple things like what I put in the last sentence.

    So yes, rebounding is important, but basically, it's more important to forge a strong identity and style that allows the team to excel in its areas of strength to such a degree that the weaknesses are still weaknesses, but much more easily overcome.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    That one confuses me even more. So the other team shoots a low percentage...so there are more rebounds available and your still unable to grab any. The Fg% and 3-pointers make sense though.
    Look at the number of opponents made field goals (least to greatest):
    4) NY
    6) MIA
    7) BOS
    14) ATL

    and attempted field goals (least to greatest):
    2) NY
    8) MIA
    11) BOS
    18) ATL

    They are limiting the number of made field goals which is obvious but with the exception of ATL they are also better at limiting the number of attempts. Good defense creates less chances to score.

    You then have pace as well. For the most part (again ATL exception) they play slower than the league average:
    6) NY
    8) MIA
    13) BOS
    19) ATL
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Look at the number of opponents made field goals (least to greatest):
    4) NY
    6) MIA
    7) BOS
    14) ATL

    and attempted field goals (least to greatest):
    2) NY
    8) MIA
    11) BOS
    18) ATL

    They are limiting the number of made field goals which is obvious but with the exception of ATL they are also better at limiting the number of attempts. Good defense creates less chances to score.

    You then have pace as well. For the most part (again ATL exception) they play slower than the league average:
    6) NY
    8) MIA
    13) BOS
    19) ATL
    And Matt is kind of rummaging through the stats on his own making the same kind of point I was trying to make....I really wish I could find that little segment.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Yes, but why? I actually started this thread because I'm confused and am looking fo insight.
    Dean Oliver's "Four Factors" has held up pretty well over time. Here are the recent numbers:

    http://hoopdata.com/teamff.aspx

    You have to look at differentials to understand the impact of certain measurements. Looking at rebounds in isolation tells you, well, not much. Teams like SAS and MIA have poor rebounding differentials but they are extremely efficient teams that get to the line a lot compared to their opponents.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    I wondered the exact same thing but it is because those teams are very very good offensive teams so they don't need to be such a great rebounding team to win games. The raptors, for example, pounded miami on the glass but our offense is so stagnant and iso heavy that we don't score on a lot of those extra possessions. Look at the way Miami and San antonio play, they move the ball and give up good shots for great shots which is why they don't need those extra possessions to win games like most other teams do.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    I wondered the exact same thing but it is because those teams are very very good offensive teams so they don't need to be such a great rebounding team to win games. The raptors, for example, pounded miami on the glass but our offense is so stagnant and iso heavy that we don't score on a lot of those extra possessions. Look at the way Miami and San antonio play, they move the ball and give up good shots for great shots which is why they don't need those extra possessions to win games like most other teams do.
    For all the bashing of the offense (and I have my problems with it as well), the Raps sit at 11th in ORTG but 22nd in DRTG. The defensive issues, along with getting killed at the line, are the major problems for this team.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    For all the bashing of the offense (and I have my problems with it as well), the Raps sit at 11th in ORTG but 22nd in DRTG. The defensive issues, along with getting killed at the line, are the major problems for this team.
    i think demar hadn't even gone to the line until the 3rd quarter, while lebron at that point had already gone to the line like 7 times. it was ridiculous.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Dean Oliver's "Four Factors" has held up pretty well over time. Here are the recent numbers:

    http://hoopdata.com/teamff.aspx

    You have to look at differentials to understand the impact of certain measurements. Looking at rebounds in isolation tells you, well, not much. Teams like SAS and MIA have poor rebounding differentials but they are extremely efficient teams that get to the line a lot compared to their opponents.
    I think this is what I had caught a segment one. Basically if a team excels in 3 of the 4 differentials, they're likely to be a very good, probably elite, team even if one lags behind really badly. I probably thought of it as 8 categories since each area is split for O/D.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Of course it is...

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    i think demar hadn't even gone to the line until the 3rd quarter, while lebron at that point had already gone to the line like 7 times. it was ridiculous.
    Actually, Toronto gets to the line right around the league average. The problem is that this team simply fouls way too much. It was a huge issue last year and hasn't improved. Opponents are shooting 33 FTAs/game. 6 above the leauge average. Parts ineptitude and philosophy.

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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    That one confuses me even more. So the other team shoots a low percentage...so there are more rebounds available and your still unable to grab any. The Fg% and 3-pointers make sense though.
    Take a team like Boston: they almost ignore offensive rebounding. They are making a point of getting back on defense, thus giving up offensive rebounding possibilities. Reason: old. This limits transition points and otherwise easy opportunities due to the defense not being organized good enough / in time. It's usually a trade-off between some different elements of the game. Teams that have speed can probably get away more easily with going for offensive rebounds and still get getting back to limit easy chances. Doc Rivers decided a couple of years ago that they cannot.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Actually, Toronto gets to the line right around the league average. The problem is that this team simply fouls way too much. It was a huge issue last year and hasn't improved. Opponents are shooting 33 FTAs/game. 6 above the leauge average. Parts ineptitude and philosophy.
    Seriously. The Raps foul a lot, but they give up bad fouls so they could definitely fix this a bit. "Hand in the cookie jar" fouls....Frustration fouls (looking at you Demar/Kyle)...Things that should be ironed out.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Take a team like Boston: they almost ignore offensive rebounding. They are making a point of getting back on defense, thus giving up offensive rebounding possibilities. Reason: old. This limits transition points and otherwise easy opportunities due to the defense not being organized good enough / in time. It's usually a trade-off between some different elements of the game. Teams that have speed can probably get away more easily with going for offensive rebounds and still get getting back to limit easy chances. Doc Rivers decided a couple of years ago that they cannot.
    Oh what do you know about rebounding? You're just a soft Euro

    Further to your point, I think it would be interesting to see when a veteran team like Boston rebounds. I would assume that their rebounding rate increases quite a bit if looking specifically at the 4th quarter (i.e. when the game is on the line).

    EDIT: Meanwhile, a team like the Raptors seem to give up a costly offensive rebound at the most inopportune times....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Rookie blz's Avatar
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    take it this way....the rebounding is the reason the game was never getting away from us until the fourth quarter.....

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