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Thread: Is rebounding still all that important?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Oh what do you know about rebounding? You're just a soft Euro

    Further to your point, I think it would be interesting to see when a veteran team like Boston rebounds. I would assume that their rebounding rate increases quite a bit if looking specifically at the 4th quarter (i.e. when the game is on the line).

    EDIT: Meanwhile, a team like the Raptors seem to give up a costly offensive rebound at the most inopportune times....
    There still isn't enough statwise on the internet. Unfortunately all those teams using advanced stats who measure everything, aren't really open about it. It's a shame that guys like Pruiti (and Hollinger) who now work for teams and have access to all those stats aren't allowed to write about it anymore.

    And, eh, about that Soft Euros stuff and rebounding. We get it very well, much better than you guys. What you guys don't realize is that rebounding takes time and energy. So, on offense, we don't go for offensive rebounds; this allows us to spare energy Šnd get back in transition more easily. This way we can jog, not run. On defense, we do it the same way. We stay far away from the basket and we certainly don't box out; this again saves energy and gives us a better position on offense while our dumb opponent is in a terrible position for defense when he goes for the offensive rebound. He might catch up with us if he runs back on defense while we jog, but that costs so much energy; after the game he must be exhausted; we can still go for another game if needed. It's brilliant!

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  3. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    That one confuses me even more. So the other team shoots a low percentage...so there are more rebounds available and your still unable to grab any. The Fg% and 3-pointers make sense though.
    One thing to consider is where these rebounds are happening. If you give up an oreb very close to the basket, that's bad, because it can yield an immediate high percentage shot. But if it's a long oreb, it's better, because that would make it more likely for the team to kick it out and reset their offence - a much less valuable possession than the one that starts two feet from the basket.

    Smarter teams tend to coax more long twos out of their opponents, which causes more of the "better" orebs, which would partly explain why they can get away with such seemingly bad rebounding numbers.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    One thing to consider is where these rebounds are happening. If you give up an oreb very close to the basket, that's bad, because it can yield an immediate high percentage shot. But if it's a long oreb, it's better, because that would make it more likely for the team to kick it out and reset their offence - a much less valuable possession than the one that starts two feet from the basket.

    Smarter teams tend to coax more long twos out of their opponents, which causes more of the "better" orebs, which would partly explain why they can get away with such seemingly bad rebounding numbers.
    The problem is that this is not the reality with some of the teams used as examples here. Both Boston and Miami are in the bottom of number of shots allowed from 16-23 feet (see hoopdata) even if you adjust for pace.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Take a team like Boston: they almost ignore offensive rebounding. They are making a point of getting back on defense, thus giving up offensive rebounding possibilities. Reason: old. This limits transition points and otherwise easy opportunities due to the defense not being organized good enough / in time. It's usually a trade-off between some different elements of the game. Teams that have speed can probably get away more easily with going for offensive rebounds and still get getting back to limit easy chances. Doc Rivers decided a couple of years ago that they cannot.
    It's not even an age thing.

    Stan Van Gundy was a big proponent of this approach even though he had Dwight Howard. He wanted guys back to defend. Scott Brooks and Eric Spoelstra have the same style. OKC and Miami were both among the NBA's worst offensive rebounding teamsl last year.

  6. #25
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Dean Oliver's "Four Factors" has held up pretty well over time. Here are the recent numbers:

    http://hoopdata.com/teamff.aspx

    You have to look at differentials to understand the impact of certain measurements. Looking at rebounds in isolation tells you, well, not much. Teams like SAS and MIA have poor rebounding differentials but they are extremely efficient teams that get to the line a lot compared to their opponents.

    That's very interesting, I hadn't seen that before. Makes a lot of sense, Efficiency and Free throw rate tells you how well a team uses a possession while turn over rate and off reb rate give an indication of how many extra possessions they get and give up. Leaves out defensive rebounds because they don't give you an extra possesion and instead anticipates you getting every defensive rebound, meaning every offensive rebound is a loss of possesion for one team (essentially a turnover) and a new possesion for the other. Good tool to measure total team performance.

    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Take a team like Boston: they almost ignore offensive rebounding. They are making a point of getting back on defense, thus giving up offensive rebounding possibilities. Reason: old. This limits transition points and otherwise easy opportunities due to the defense not being organized good enough / in time. It's usually a trade-off between some different elements of the game. Teams that have speed can probably get away more easily with going for offensive rebounds and still get getting back to limit easy chances. Doc Rivers decided a couple of years ago that they cannot.

    Also Makes sense, teams choose which of the factors that their teams can excel in then and sacrifice others. Boston does well by sacrificing everything in order to try to keep their defensive efficiency high.

    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    One thing to consider is where these rebounds are happening. If you give up an oreb very close to the basket, that's bad, because it can yield an immediate high percentage shot. But if it's a long oreb, it's better, because that would make it more likely for the team to kick it out and reset their offence - a much less valuable possession than the one that starts two feet from the basket.

    Smarter teams tend to coax more long twos out of their opponents, which causes more of the "better" orebs, which would partly explain why they can get away with such seemingly bad rebounding numbers.
    I like numbers... don't make me sad by adding qualitative data to my quantitative world .

    Edit: unless you numbers that give percentages of where teams give up offensive rebounds...could be interesting, especially in Bostons case. That would be happy

    Thanks all, this makes sense to me now.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    The problem is that this is not the reality with some of the teams used as examples here. Both Boston and Miami are in the bottom of number of shots allowed from 16-23 feet (see hoopdata) even if you adjust for pace.
    Yeah, I'm not saying that explains all of it, but it could be a contributing factor.

  8. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    That's very interesting, I hadn't seen that before. Makes a lot of sense, Efficiency and Free throw rate tells you how well a team uses a possession while turn over rate and off reb rate give an indication of how many extra possessions they get and give up. Leaves out defensive rebounds because they don't give you an extra possesion and instead anticipates you getting every defensive rebound, meaning every offensive rebound is a loss of possesion for one team (essentially a turnover) and a new possesion for the other. Good tool to measure total team performance.




    Also Makes sense, teams choose which of the factors that their teams can excel in then and sacrifice others. Boston does well by sacrificing everything in order to try to keep their defensive efficiency high.



    I like numbers... don't make me sad by adding qualitative data to my quantitative world .

    Edit: unless you numbers that give percentages of where teams give up offensive rebounds...could be interesting, especially in Bostons case. That would be happy

    Thanks all, this makes sense to me now.
    Haha yeah that's my point; the rebounding numbers that we have are, unfortunately, probably oversimplified.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Yes, it's still extremely important, question is, how are the surrounding aspects of the game?

    Miami, they have good individual rebounds, great defense, and great offense. Reason they're a terrible rebounding team, yet so good, is because of their overall ability to win games otherwise.

    Rebounding depends on what a coach or a system asks you to do, possibly leak out - leading to less defensive rebounders set - or transition D (meaning teams don't worry a lick about offensive boards, or only have 1 player set under the basket). Miami does these very things, and their lineups in general aren't very big.

    How about good rebounding teams? OKC, SA, New York, Indiana? A large reason for their success is rebounding.

    Point is, rebounding IS still all that important. Using Washington as an example is a bad one, because other than rebounding, their offensive execution is poor, and their defense is sub-par.

  10. #29
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    If you look at personnel, I'm not surprised Miami struggles with rebounding. They make it up with speedy defense (rotations) and turnovers which they quickly convert into a dunk.

    Every team has strengths and weaknesses. Miami has 1 glaring weakness which is why they struggle against a team like Indiana. They do a great job imposing their strengths (and they have plenty) to make up for the lack of size.

    One thing to take away is for us to assess our personnel and take advantage of our strengths & I believe its our athleticism. This is where I believe better coaching comes in. I hope Casey can adjust for next year if he remains our coach.

  11. #30
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Rebounding can be a function of good Defense
    But good Defense is not necessarily a function of good Rebounding

    Take the Miami game for example:

    2nd Q - 3:33 remaing
    DD Lay-up shot (missed)
    DD ORb
    DD Lay-up (missed)
    AJ ORb
    AJ Tip shot (missed)
    DD ORb
    DD Lay-up (missed)
    Gay ORb
    Gay made shot (hook)

    Net Totals on ONE play
    2 points
    1 - 5 = fgm/a
    4 ORb

    Try another example:

    3rd Q - 2:54 remaining
    AJ jump shot (missed)
    AJ ORb
    AJ Tip shot (missed)
    AJ ORb
    AJ Tip shot (missed)

    Net Totals on one play
    0 points
    0 - 3 = fgm/a
    2 ORb

    Total from 2 plays
    2 points
    1 - 8 = fgm/a
    6 ORb

    A team can't play the #1 team - who are shooting .496 for the season (and even better during the win streak) - and hope to win, all the while missing shots like they did for this game. This is not to pick on Amir, as I believe he's the undisputed Raptor MVP for this season.

    Rebounding is one tangible part to a good team. By itself, it is a stat that has its' flaws. Defense, fg%, and 3 point shooting can weigh heavily in how well a team does. Miami is a top defending team, #1 in fg%, and 3rd in Perimeter shooting (12th in defending), while last in Rebound totals (and 3rd last in ORb).

    I see rebounding as a number that's been over-stated - relative to others. Take Ed & Amir for example. Ed strikes me as the better Rebounder (Actual + Potential), even as the last 5 - 10 games have skewed Johnson's numbers. Never-the-less, I view Amir as the better Defender. He can handle bigger players, and is a better defender in the Post.

    .

    Miami's current win streak also seems to be a reflection of their Bench.
    January - Ranked 26th [Deff - HoopStats]
    Feb / March - 10th [23 games]

    http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball...7/diffeff/28-1

    Toronto's record has somewhat been a reflection of their Bench (besides many other things):
    November - 14th
    December - 4th
    January - 3rd
    February - 24th
    March - 21st

    Looking at the numbers (and digesting all this), I really believe Toronto has a real need for a quality Back-up PG. IMO, that Back-up Point Guard is the #1 priority for the summer, pending Telfair showing something extraordinary.

    .

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  13. #31
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    I'm kind of late to the party and a lot of the posts on the first page alluded to it, but I thought this was worth stating because I didn't see it explicitly. Miami has grabbed the least rebounds in the league by quite a bit, but there's no adjustment for pace or ofg% or anything. However, if you look at hoopdata, the Heat are almost literally exactly average in terms of defensive rebounding rate.

  14. #32
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Obviously, this thread is in response to the Raps loss to Miami. The Raps had 51 boards, while Miami had 26. Both teams had 39 made FG's, the Raps requiring 94 shots to do so (42%), while the heat required just 67 (for 58%). This means that the Heat had few offensive rebounding opportunites while the Raps had many. In fact, the Raps had as many offensive rebounds as the Heat had defensive. And, if you recall, there were multiple times in which the Raps (well, probably Amir) had consecutive offensive boards off of tips at the rim. Shot missed, tip missed, tip missed again and again. That's 4 FG attempts and 3 rebounds in one play. That happened more than once against the Heat on Sunday. Nonetheless, I understand why you would create a post like this. When you out rebound your opponent by 25, you should expect to win. But like "white men can't jump" noted earlier, the Heat are so good at everything else they can afford to be a weak rebounding team. However, that may catch up with them if they don't continue to shoot the ball at that crazy rate.

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