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Thread: Wins comes from good 4th Quarter Coaching!

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    Default Wins comes from good 4th Quarter Coaching!

    http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/scoreboard according to these sports analysts speaking about the Miami's winning streak, they seem to think that good coaching in the forth quarter can take a team past a team with better talents. Basically at the 4:00 min mark they go into details about this point.

    Do you guys think if we had a coach that truly knows what he was doing or a coach that would listen to those assistants who knows what they were doing, would would be in a better place now? I for one agree with this point.

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    If this claim is true, than the inverse must also be true, that poor coaching in the 4th quarter leads to extra losses. As Raptor fans this season, we've seen far too many 4th quarter collapses and have often blamed the loss on poor coaching. I absolutely think that coaching decisions, especially in the 2nd half / 4th quarter play a big role in determining the outcome in games. I don't think DC is a 'bad' coach, but he's made many boneheaded decisions throughout the season, which I feel have cost the team several wins (especially during that horrid start to the season).

    It's interesting to think about, not only in terms of current coaches, but past coaches. I know Triano is widely regarded as a horrible coach, but I always thought he seemed to be an exceptional gameplanner, as his teams always seemed to play very competitively in the first half of games. My biggest beef with him was that he always got outcoached at halftime. Opposing coaches would adjust their gameplan and adapt to the Raptors, which allowed them to outplay the Raps in the 2nd half. Triano always seemed unable to deviate from his gameplan and relied too heavily on his pre-game x's & o's, rather than adapt in-game and make adjustments.

    For many past Raptors coaches, likely due to their collective inexperience, I found that whatever in-game adjustments they made always seemed to be in reaction to adjustments made by the opposition (ie: going big or small). I don't recall any past Raptors coach ever taking the iniative and forcing the opposition to adjust to them within the flow of a particular game. DC has seemed willing to do this a little bit lately, by playing small ball, but I get the feeling it's been done more out of necessity/desperation, than actual strategy. I therefore don't find it overly suprising that past Raptors coaches haven't really ever resurfaced in the NBA, as anything more than assistant coaches.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I certainly agree that if a team has a superior coach they have a better chance of closing out games than an inferior coach. On the other hand if the inferior coach has a great team and the superior coach has a horrible team, the inferior coach will probably win.

    This article states that good coaching in the fourth quarter can take a team past a team with better talents. I tend to disagree unless the difference between the two teams is marginal. However such is the case with the Raptors that most teams have superior talent, like, it's not even close. In our particular case, I don't think combining the braintrust of the top coaches in the history of the NBA is going to make that much of a difference. Maybe we win 5 more games that we didn't win.
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    While I am not of the view that 'coaching doesn't matter', I think that coaching, particularly at the NBA level, makes a difference only around the margins. A really good coach might win you a handful of games more in any given year and a really bad coach might lose you a few. Obviously, that can matter if the team is close to contention or playoffs, etc. but for a team like Toronto or Miami (at either end of the spectrum), I don't believe it makes much of a difference.

    The guy I always point to here is Doc Rivers. Doc Rivers coached some of the worst teams in Boston Celtics history. Fans wanted to run him out of town on the rail. Then, Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett come to town and all of a sudden Doc Rivers is one of the greates coaches in the history of everything. This isn't to diminish what Rivers has done but the reality is that Doc Rivers couldn't even get to .500 without those guys.

    Skill, and superstars, rule in the NBA. It ain't a coaches' league.

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    My current opinion is also that coaches only make differences around the margins.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    How wide of a margin are we talking about here? If the Raptors are basically a .500 team (+/- 5 wins), there's a significant difference between finishing with 36 wins vs. 46 wins.

    Does anyone think there's a coach out there that can get this current roster to 45 wins?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    How wide of a margin are we talking about here? If the Raptors are basically a .500 team (+/- 5 wins), there's a significant difference between finishing with 36 wins vs. 46 wins.

    Does anyone think there's a coach out there that can get this current roster to 45 wins?
    Are we sure this is a 500 team? I have my doubts.

    Coaches that would make this team better? Sloane? Stan Van Gundy? After Adelman went to Minny I now will never again say, 'no way will that guy ever go there'. Problem is, Colangelo has a track record of hiring inexperienced coaches. As long as he is here, I don't see any of those guys being hired by Toronto.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I think next year given this roster we're a 38-40 win team. Some assumptions include JV playing better, Ross improving. A different coach might improve that, but then you have that situation where if you don't replace Casey in time, then we're talking about an adjustment period and all that. Might still be the same number of wins.

    I don't think Casey is going anywhere. As I've stated many times already, no reason to fire him until we lose games we're supposed to be winning. Yea, we lost some games in the 4th but maybe from a different perspective you can say "Wow, Casey kept us in the game for 3 quarters! Let's triple his salary!".
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    i think we have been losing games we're suposed to be winning and thats the problem. we have no comparisson without seeing them under another coach but i think most of us believe that we have lost more than our share of games we should have won.
    i get both sides though

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    Raptors Republic Rookie robert parrish 00's Avatar
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    Default I think so

    Casey has a huge impact on the 4th.

    It's hard to win when your starters are on the bench till the 8 min mark of the 4th.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    How wide of a margin are we talking about here? If the Raptors are basically a .500 team (+/- 5 wins), there's a significant difference between finishing with 36 wins vs. 46 wins.

    Does anyone think there's a coach out there that can get this current roster to 45 wins?
    I don't think there's a coach in the world who could have gotten this year's Toronto Raptors anywhere close to 45 wins. Next year, assuming that JV and others make some improvements on their own this summer, then maybe, but part of that will be because the players themselves have better skills.

    I agree that Casey hasn't done a perfect job this year, far from it. All things considered though, I'm not sure a different coach would have made a difference.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Raptors Republic All-Star iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote robert parrish 00 wrote: View Post
    Casey has a huge impact on the 4th.

    It's hard to win when your starters are on the bench till the 8 min mark of the 4th.
    its harder to win if you think starters should be playing full 48 minutes.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    If this claim is true, than the inverse must also be true, that poor coaching in the 4th quarter leads to extra losses. As Raptor fans this season, we've seen far too many 4th quarter collapses and have often blamed the loss on poor coaching. I absolutely think that coaching decisions, especially in the 2nd half / 4th quarter play a big role in determining the outcome in games. I don't think DC is a 'bad' coach, but he's made many boneheaded decisions throughout the season, which I feel have cost the team several wins (especially during that horrid start to the season).

    It's interesting to think about, not only in terms of current coaches, but past coaches. I know Triano is widely regarded as a horrible coach, but I always thought he seemed to be an exceptional gameplanner, as his teams always seemed to play very competitively in the first half of games. My biggest beef with him was that he always got outcoached at halftime. Opposing coaches would adjust their gameplan and adapt to the Raptors, which allowed them to outplay the Raps in the 2nd half. Triano always seemed unable to deviate from his gameplan and relied too heavily on his pre-game x's & o's, rather than adapt in-game and make adjustments.

    For many past Raptors coaches, likely due to their collective inexperience, I found that whatever in-game adjustments they made always seemed to be in reaction to adjustments made by the opposition (ie: going big or small). I don't recall any past Raptors coach ever taking the iniative and forcing the opposition to adjust to them within the flow of a particular game. DC has seemed willing to do this a little bit lately, by playing small ball, but I get the feeling it's been done more out of necessity/desperation, than actual strategy. I therefore don't find it overly suprising that past Raptors coaches haven't really ever resurfaced in the NBA, as anything more than assistant coaches.
    I was gonna ask about those past coaches and if that applied back then also, but you answered that question already!

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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I Maybe we win 5 more games that we didn't win.
    I am thinking it would be more than 5 wins or so!

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Does anyone think there's a coach out there that can get this current roster to 45 wins?
    I think that it is possible to get to 45 wins if that coach gets the team to play less hero ball and more team ball, passing the ball around more and actually giving a damn on defense.

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    Quote robert parrish 00 wrote: View Post
    Casey has a huge impact on the 4th.

    It's hard to win when your starters are on the bench till the 8 min mark of the 4th.
    Great point. And another thing: Why does he not do more mix and matching with the lineup in the 4th instead of leaving the entire bench on the court. Does he think this is HOCKEY where he has a 1st and 2nd line? Strange.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    How wide of a margin are we talking about here? If the Raptors are basically a .500 team (+/- 5 wins), there's a significant difference between finishing with 36 wins vs. 46 wins.

    Does anyone think there's a coach out there that can get this current roster to 45 wins?
    Honestly if you compare our talent it is well above average with 2 all star calibre players and 2 potential future all stars in Vally and DeRozan. Getting to 40+ wins with this team (with minor off season tweaks) should not be a problem and if it is then something is wrong.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Honestly if you compare our talent it is well above average with 2 all star calibre players and 2 potential future all stars in Vally and DeRozan. Getting to 40+ wins with this team (with minor off season tweaks) should not be a problem and if it is then something is wrong.
    I'm sorry, but I feel like you can't say anyone is an all-star calibre player since no one has made an all-star game. You can talk about talent or potential, but someone actually has to make an all-star game to use those words, IMO.

    Might just be nitpicking, but every player we have, including Gay and Lowry (the guys I assume you mean) would still have to have their best seasons to beat their competition and make an all-star game, including the fact that such seasons would have to contribute to winning, since that's a major factor for most of their competition. Therefore they have not proven to be all-star calibre players, for even if they have the talent to be, they have not maximized it well enough yet. In such a case, you can't really separate guys like Gay and Lowry from guys like JV and Demar...they all are potential all-stars, and that's it at this point.

    *And you can clearly make arguments for who's closer to being such a player, but again, still potential.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Mar 20th, 2013 at 06:31 PM.

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    At the end of the day it is about talent but a Coach's role in the 4th quarter is huge. A good coach should be able to win 75% of games his team leads by 10 points after 3 quarters. Firstly, experienced players are least prone to silly mistakes so it's very important that your most experienced players are on the floor in the 4th quarter. Exceptions can be made in some situations but Caseys preference of inexperienced players(some) has lost us quite a few games. Secondly, some bad decisions have resulted in teams coming back to beat us. Casey is not bad but Raps. need a new Coach.
    Last edited by Eric Akshinthala; Thu Mar 21st, 2013 at 08:54 AM.
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    At the end of the day it is about talent but a Coach's role in the 4th quarter is huge. A good coach should be able to win 75% of games his team leads by 10 points after 3 quarters. Firstly, experienced players are least prone to silly mistakes so it's very important that your most experienced players are on the floor in the 4th quarter. Exceptions can be made in some situations but Caseys preference of inexperienced players(some) has lost us quite a few games. Secondly, some bad decisions have resulted in teams coming back to beat us. Casey is not bad but Raps. need a new Coach.
    i dunno about that. casey has been pretty adamant in putting in 'experienced' players AA and JL while JV and ross up until recently never really saw 4th quarter play.

    When have we ever lost a game due to inexperienced players in the 4th?

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