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Thread: Question: At what point does Casey have to adjust his style and strategy?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    I'm going to try and not get into Lowry vs Jose debate, but I will say I'm not at all convinced Lowry is more 'talented' than Jose. They are very different style PGs, with Jose being more talented in some areas, and Lowry in others. To add to that Jose's biggest weakness, defense, wasn't quite as bad as people claimed so trading for Lowry didn't give this jump in defensive prowress people expected. Rather having a team loaded with bad defenders made it look much worse than it is, much like it was for Lowry especially early in the season. Hello: Andrea 'I don't help on defense and instantly make everyone a bad defender' Bargnani

    Lowry's numbers are very similar to the same numbers he put up in Houston. (Link) In fact many are at or near career highs. The only area where his numbers have dropped of any note (and not that much to be honest) is scoring attempts (FGA + FTA). Which shouldn't be a suprise given he's hasn't been the center of the offense in Toronto like he was in Houston.

    I think this is a case of some combination of the following:

    -people having much too high of expectations of him, and now he is only performing poorly in relation to those expectations. He's actually been good, just not great.

    -playing a different role (ie. not a shoot first PG). And while some may blame Casey for this, I'd point you directly to Colangelo. Its not suprising the guys taking shots instead of Lowry are the guys Colangelo is paying the most and guys he's seen as the teams franchise players at one point or another this season. We all know the consequences of a coach not following the plan on this team.

    - Jose being better than people thought, and the 'upgrade' to Lowry was marginal at best.

    - scoring still plays a big role, at the very least subconsiously, convincing fans how talented players are. Compared to last year all Lowry's efficiency numbers are up (including rebounds and steals. While the small drop in drtg is easily explained by being on a worse defensive team to last season - team drtg of 105.2 in Houston vs 108 in Toronto), its only his actual shots taken that are down.

    To sum up. Lowry is a good player, on a bad team thats poorly built with players playing roles they aren't suited to because the GM is more concerned with perserving his ego (and job) than building for success. Casey and Lowry are just symptoms of a bigger issue.
    Last edited by Craiger; Sun Mar 24th, 2013 at 07:02 AM.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I'm going to try and not get into Lowry vs Jose debate, but I will say I'm not at all convinced Lowry is more 'talented' than Jose. They are very different style PGs, with Jose being more talented in some areas, and Lowry in others. To add to that Jose's biggest weakness, defense, wasn't quite as bad as people claimed so trading for Lowry didn't give this jump in defensive prowress people expected. Rather having a team loaded with bad defenders made it look much worse than it is, much like it was for Lowry especially early in the season. Hello: Andrea 'I don't help on defense and instantly make everyone a bad defender' Bargnani

    Lowry's numbers are very similar to the same numbers he put up in Houston. (Link) In fact many are at or near career highs. The only area where his numbers have dropped of any note (and not that much to be honest) is scoring attempts (FGA + FTA). Which shouldn't be a suprise given he's hasn't been the center of the offense in Toronto like he was in Houston.

    I think this is a case of some combination of the following:

    -people having much too high of expectations of him, and now he is only performing poorly in relation to those expectations. He's actually been good, just not great.

    -playing a different role (ie. not a shoot first PG). And while some may blame Casey for this, I'd point you directly to Colangelo. Its not suprising the guys taking shots instead of Lowry are the guys Colangelo is paying the most and guys he's seen as the teams franchise players at one point or another this season. We all know the consequences of a coach not following the plan on this team.

    - Jose being better than people thought, and the 'upgrade' to Lowry was marginal at best.

    - scoring still plays a big role, at the very least subconsiously, convincing fans how talented players are. Compared to last year all Lowry's efficiency numbers are up (including rebounds and steals. While the small drop in drtg is easily explained by being on a worse defensive team to last season - team drtg of 105.2 in Houston vs 108 in Toronto), its only his actual shots taken that are down.

    To sum up. Lowry is a good player, on a bad team thats poorly built with players playing roles they aren't suited to because the GM is more concerned with perserving his ego (and job) than building for success. Casey and Lowry are just symptoms of a bigger issue.
    That is still an upgrade.

    Lowry trying to play Jose's game is still an upgrade.

    Despite Casey not playing to his players strengths - including Lowry - he is still an upgrade.
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  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Bryan C is the worst GM in the league. He overpays and He picked every player and coach on this roster. THIS TEAM IS SUPER FLAWED. There is no clear direction. I cant believe that he gets away with this shit!

    Do Results not matter anymore??????

    No draft pick...
    No flexibility...
    No one wants Bargs...
    Kleiza, Fields, Hedo, etc.

    He traded JJ for a second round pick (gave up a 1st to get him)...
    Let Bayless walk for nothing....Now he plays for Memphis and playing quite well....
    Traded ED for an overpaid player with back problems (Gay)...Check out Memphis' play since the trade! How could you not see that they're better off without RG??

    Most of his moves end up BLOWING up in our faces!! His euro ball experiment FAILED.

    If they pick up his option WE'RE FUCKED.... I have ZERO confidence in this clown. Hands down the worst GM in the league. Who else would believe that Andrea Bargnani is a number 1 option for so many years??

    BC is the guy that put this all together....stop blaming AB.....stop blaming Dwane Casey....,stop blaming the fans......get rid of Bryan C! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

    End Rant.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Default The only strategy change needed is to fire Casey, let go of BC

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I respect your opinion here and am not being confrontational sometimes that needs to go with saying....

    I very much agree Lowry is a downgrade from Jose when you are asking Lowry to play like Jose. If you let Lowry play his game, then I think Lowry is a better player. Jose is still a better point guard but Lowry is a better player.
    I have missed the last 4 games. I can't believe what has transpired. I personally don't like how Lowry is trying to play Jose's game. Making an effort to pass is noble but his offence has taken a hit. Maybe he's trying to be a better point guard. Only time will tell. Something tells me that his camp or himself has himself convinced that if he never gets his assists totals up, it will factor in his next contract. As much as I hate BC since Bosh walked, I'm really trying hard to defend Casey. HOWEVER, I do think that he shouldn't even be given a chance to coach this team next year (even though his option was picked up). I think a new system needs to be employed this summer and it shouldn't be coming from Casey. I don't like offensive minded-coaches here but the reality is that the players have changed. I think its time to go in another direction - like a Nate MacMillan direction. BC can go as well, but then again, you already heard me say that 1,000 times.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  5. #25
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    I don't believe a Coach should be adjusting his style and strategy because what he's tried so far hasn't worked. If it's not working then his basic Coaching style is not suited for the NBA. Casey is a good assistant Coach(defence) and the Mavs. championship win is proof of that. Unfortunately his ability to teach defence does not translate to good head coaching.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    So you give it that Jose is a better PG, but say that Lowry is a better overall basketball player because he has more basketball skills. Skills mean dick all unless you use them well, but does he shoot better than Jose? No way on earth. Does he pass better than Jose? No way on earth. Does he make better decisions than Jose? No way. So what exactly are these heightened basketball skills that make him a better basketball player? You speak of driving to the hoop. Yup, he started the year (what 3 games?) being successful with that, but then what happened? Teams started defending that and he found himself driving into a forest of defenders more often than not, having no outlet, and hoisting up some prayer of a circus shot. That's called very bad decision making, but hey, driving to the hoop is his strength, eh, even when it's a hopeless decision.

    "He has been dicked around so much this year he can't even throw a lob pass, pitch the ball ahead, or consistently attack the rim anymore."

    So Casey's to blame for him not being able to throw a decent lob pass or pitch the ball ahead? Interesting, but laughable. I suppose it's Casey's fault when he stands there whining to the refs while play is headed the other way, just like his buddy Rudy? Or I suppose it's Casey's fault that he constantly leaves his man while ball hawking on D?

    "His confidence and thus his decision making is noticeably shaken."

    First, word amongst those who are closer to the team is that he's been playing hurt since his early season injury. Might that have something to do with his play, and confidence? Or maybe it's just that the only thing he knows is 1 on 5 street balling, like his Philly hero A.I. and he's having a hard time adjusting to actually playing NBA team ball, instead of the hero ball decision making he's used to, and why two teams already kissed his ass goodbye.
    I think you're missing Matt's point. The original post is arguing that the Coaching philosophy doesn't complement Lowry's skill set. While I agree with Lowry playing hero-ball, taking chances on D etc. I don't think he's comfortable with what's expected on either side of the floor.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

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  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I have missed the last 4 games. I can't believe what has transpired. I personally don't like how Lowry is trying to play Jose's game. Making an effort to pass is noble but his offence has taken a hit. Maybe he's trying to be a better point guard. Only time will tell. Something tells me that his camp or himself has himself convinced that if he never gets his assists totals up, it will factor in his next contract. As much as I hate BC since Bosh walked, I'm really trying hard to defend Casey. HOWEVER, I do think that he shouldn't even be given a chance to coach this team next year (even though his option was picked up). I think a new system needs to be employed this summer and it shouldn't be coming from Casey. I don't like offensive minded-coaches here but the reality is that the players have changed. I think its time to go in another direction - like a Nate MacMillan direction. BC can go as well, but then again, you already heard me say that 1,000 times.
    I don't think McMillan is the answer but I agree with everything else - including BC.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie robert parrish 00's Avatar
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    You can't change what doesn't exist. Casey has neither style or strategy, unless you consider getting our Raps isolation plays a strategy.

    Of course if you do think he has a style, then hell yes he needs to change it. Look at the record.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    I think the first questions are: what exactly is the style of play of this this team? what is the overall strategy?

    I have no idea what this team's identity is at the moment or what it is supposed to be. Do they want to be a tough minded defensive team like the great Celtic teams of recent years? Do they want to beat you up inside like Indy and Memphis? Do they want to run and gun like Denver?

    Again, I don't know if the plan needs to change cause I don't know what the plan is. If I had to describe this team, the best I could come up with is: Group of mostly selfish players who shoot a lot of contested midrange jumpers and foul other teams a lot.

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  12. #30
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I think the first questions are: what exactly is the style of play of this this team? what is the overall strategy?

    I have no idea what this team's identity is at the moment or what it is supposed to be. Do they want to be a tough minded defensive team like the great Celtic teams of recent years? Do they want to beat you up inside like Indy and Memphis? Do they want to run and gun like Denver?

    Again, I don't know if the plan needs to change cause I don't know what the plan is. If I had to describe this team, the best I could come up with is: Group of mostly selfish players who shoot a lot of contested midrange jumpers and foul other teams a lot.
    Exactly what I was going to say. We arent a defensive minded team. Our offensive execution is ugly and inefficient. We dont play slow, but we dont play fast either. We are stuck in no mans land from a strategy perspective.

    For what its worth, given where we are at, here is the identity I would try to build (I dont think Casey is the guy to build it, as he only has one identity .. veteran, slow and defensive minded (of which we are none).

    1) Play Fast, Up tempo
    We all know that our offense is pretty inefficient and relies on a bunch of isos that end up in long Js. While we clearly need to fix this .. how about avoiding the problem as often as we can? Our biggest strengths are athletic wing men (and pretty athletic big men in Amir and JV). We should run the shit out of teams and let RG, DD, TR, AJ play to their strengths of finishing in transition (maybe not DD .. but he can learn). We are also deep at these positions .. so again, why not run more? In the jose days, maybe not .. but with the current team, yes.

    2) Go Young
    We have finally started to do this a little bit .. but the only way that this team will succeed given our lack of flexibility is if JV and TR develop into at least good (if not very good) NBA players.

    3) Get a Coach that knows Offense
    Whether its an assistant or a new head coach .. we had got to switch up this deplorable offensive execution.

    4) Try to keep the D up as much as possible given the above
    I realize these things will be hard to improve all at once .. but think about a Denver-esque type scheme that takes advantage of our long, athletic wing men to extend ball pressure and try to trap people. We will give up a lot of points .. but hopefully cause some TOs

    As I type these things out, Im not sure casey is the man for any of them, with perhaps the exception of #4. So, I guess we should start with a new coach.

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I would agree if it was like the March Madness format where it was only one game you need to win to move on, but in a 7 game series it's hard to say winning has to do with luck. Just my opinion.
    I'm not saying the winners are lucky, obviously you have to be one of the best. Many of these games come down to a few possessions; a few shots dropping or not dropping, a few rebounds going your way, a few calls or non calls by the referees, etc. Often games can go either way, but we make up a narrative afterwards which completely explains why one side one and the other lost. E.g. if you look at the 2011 finals, between Miami and Dallas, lots of those games could have gone either way.

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    i think weree gunna look back at this time a few years from now and say "remember when the raptors tried to be a defensive team? what a fail that was" as we go back to run and gun style

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    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Simply put, what we call our "team" is composed of like-minded individual chuckers at heart & the result is Kyle Lowry being asked to take on the role of a floor general (by default since he's the PG). As of right now, we have 6 guys (Lowry, DeRozan, Gay, Anderson, Ross & Lucas) who all qualify as chuckers at heart.

    Our problem stems from the horrible talent stacking that our genius GM blessed us with & the small ball line-up is a result of the lack of depth in the front court. Realistically, who else is there to play the 4 or 5? Gray, Acy?

    But the last few games have meant absolutely nothing except we are that much closer to dropping in the standings & therefore, gives us a better chance of getting a pick (which I'm not sure is a good thing because I'm not convinced we'll make the playoffs next year either).

    Maybe we are seeing "Operation Tank Properly" in effect
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Maybe put it this way. Pretend you're the team captain, an it's your job to pick the players on your team for a pick-up basketball game going on, near town centre, or whatever.

    Who is your choice? Jose Calderon, or Kyle Lowry? From a talent perspective, from a guy who has abilities on both ends of the floor, I'm taking Lowry maybe 8 times out of 10.

    There's always questions about a system, playing time, etc, etc. That all goes on in an actually competitive league. But, in a pick-up game, there's no one else but 10 guys on the court, and the most talented team wins.
    The NBA is not pick-up basketball.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote d749 wrote: View Post
    i think weree gunna look back at this time a few years from now and say "remember when the raptors tried to be a defensive team? what a fail that was" as we go back to run and gun style
    I don't think we were ever known as a "run and gun" team, and if we were, there is no comparison to the likes of Denver's offense.
    Writer for RaptorsWatch.com

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    He got injured. Casey has mismanaged his talent/abilities all season (square peg, round hole). The Raptors are comprised of players that need to be spoon fed to be successful. The lack of talent has been an issue. The addition of JV, Lowry, and Gay significantly increase the talent on this team.

    Lowry is not perfect - far from it. However the issue is he is not being used to his strengths and despite his efforts to evolve in to the type of PG Casey wants, Casey has not evolved to maximize the talent he actually has.
    A virtual non-response to my post which responded directly to specifics in your previous post. I appreciate that you have a generalized opinion of what's going on based on little else than imagination, but let's call it what it is. Casey is not to blame for Lowry's poor play because he doesn't want Lowry trying to be a 1 on 5 street baller, and isn't to blame for Lowry still not having the skills to "make lob passes", "pass the ball ahead", or make good decisions, as a PG, in a team game. The Raps need a PG, not the stereotypical SG in a PG's body, Bayless 2.0, but if you want to rant about Casey's mismanaging of him, as in trying to get him to actually play like a starting PG that involves his teammates, carry on I guess.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    A virtual non-response to my post which responded directly to specifics in your previous post. I appreciate that you have a generalized opinion of what's going on based on little else than imagination, but let's call it what it is. Casey is not to blame for Lowry's poor play because he doesn't want Lowry trying to be a 1 on 5 street baller, and isn't to blame for Lowry still not having the skills to "make lob passes", "pass the ball ahead", or make good decisions, as a PG, in a team game. The Raps need a PG, not the stereotypical SG in a PG's body, Bayless 2.0, but if you want to rant about Casey's mismanaging of him, as in trying to get him to actually play like a starting PG that involves his teammates, carry on I guess.
    FWIW, I actually agree with both sides of this argument, yours and Matt's. I'm also a firm believer that a team should have a pass-first, floor general style starting PG (ie: Calderon > Ford, Jack, Bayless, Lowry), because they have a tendancy to make the players around them better (ie: more efficient due to better ball rotation and more open looks).

    I think Lowry is very skilled, but I think he came in with unrealistic expectations. I also think his defense was overrated and he's been fighting an uphill battle, especially since he's replaced such a popular player. It's admirable that he's making an effort to be more of a distributor, but what's the point if it goes against all the instincts that made him a good player to begin with? Square peg, round hole - both DC & BC deserve some of the blame, with Lowry simply doing what's been asked of him.

    If the entire Raptors starting unit had better chemistry and ball movement - achievable through a combination of better fit of complimentary skilled players and smarter game-planning by DC - then I think Lowry could be a good fit while returning to his more natural/instinctive style of aggressive play. Rather than play a slow-paced, set style of offense where a single player was responsible for all the setups (ie: Raps with Calderon), the Raps should look to play a more team-oriented style of offense so Lowry won't be counted on as the lone facilitator.

    Without improving the chemistry and ball movement of the entire lineup, I think Lowry is best suited as a backup PG. In that role, his natural style of play will be more effective and his deficiencies won't be as detrimental to the entire team.

    Personally, I'd much rather keep Lowry as the starting PG and retool the starting unit around him. That's one of the reasons I've been so gung-ho about trading DeRozan for a starting PF with more of an established post-presence than Johnson. Not only would that give the Raps another option for offensive play calling (ie: through the post), but replacing an ISO/jump shooting DeRozan with an off-ball glue guy like Fields should also improve the team's overall ball movement on offense (plus the improved perimeter defense). I think Lowry would be a much better fit in that lineup than the current starting lineup.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Mar 25th, 2013 at 11:35 AM.

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  21. #38
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    A virtual non-response to my post which responded directly to specifics in your previous post. I appreciate that you have a generalized opinion of what's going on based on little else than imagination, but let's call it what it is. Casey is not to blame for Lowry's poor play because he doesn't want Lowry trying to be a 1 on 5 street baller, and isn't to blame for Lowry still not having the skills to "make lob passes", "pass the ball ahead", or make good decisions, as a PG, in a team game. The Raps need a PG, not the stereotypical SG in a PG's body, Bayless 2.0, but if you want to rant about Casey's mismanaging of him, as in trying to get him to actually play like a starting PG that involves his teammates, carry on I guess.
    Exactly.

    You continue to do the p00ka 2-Step.

    The thread was about Casey adjusting his style/methods to the roster he has and maximizing its potential.

    You want to go in another direction. Have fun. It was my own fault for engaging in the first place.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I got all excited about what to say as I read through the thread but CRF pretty much covered everything I could have said.

    The only thing that wasn't mentioned was in regards to the trade for Lowry -- which I think compounds some of the unreasonable expectations we have of Lowry. The fact that we traded a first round pick for him. Bad draft class or not, when you're trading a first round pick (and a high one at that), you're expecting a pretty good player in return. Whether you think Lowry was an upgrade from Calderon or not, the margin of improvement does not justify a first round draft pick. And that sucks for everyone.
    your pal,
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Personally, I'd much rather keep Lowry as the starting PG and retool the starting unit around him. That's one of the reasons I've been so gung-ho about trading DeRozan for a starting PF with more of an established post-presence than Johnson. Not only would that give the Raps another option for offensive play calling (ie: through the post), but replacing an ISO/jump shooting DeRozan with an off-ball glue guy like Fields should also improve the team's overall ball movement on offense (plus the improved perimeter defense). I think Lowry would be a much better fit in that lineup than the current starting lineup.
    This

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