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Thread: Canadian mens basketball team

  1. #21
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    2016 zero chance; 2020 is a long shot as well; just look at how talented the current Spanish team is (immediate top contender if they were an nba team) and they have trouble being a serious threat.
    And I have some issues with this. They have trouble being a threat, even more so in the last Games, because they have almost ZERO athleticism that compares to the US, espeically on the wings. This would be a problem in the NBA even, as guys like Rudy (strength) and JC Navarro(size/athleticism) washed out. Imagine Memphis with defensively weak perimeter play...that is pretty close to what Spain would be in the NBA, IMO.

    This will not be a problem for Canada. They will be the only team with the combination of talent and athleticism that has a chance against the US. Again, they project to have much better tools and talent to matchup against the US than probably any team I've ever seen (since NBAers were allowed to compete), in my opinion.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Apr 9th, 2013 at 08:47 AM.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I think the Canadian team (espeically by 2020) will be more talented than the current Spanish team.
    I don't know much about the Canadians, but the Spanish team is extremely talented with the Gasol's, Ibaka, Rubio and others. This is the most talented non-US team ever.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    And I have some issues with this. They have trouble being a threat, even more so in the last Games, because they have almost ZERO athleticism that compares to the US, espeically on the wings. This would be a problem in the NBA even, as guys like Rudy (strength) and JC Navarro(size/athleticism) washed out. Imagine Memphis with defensively weak perimeter play...that is pretty close to what Spain would be in the NBA, IMO.

    This will not be a problem for Canada. They will be the only team with the combination of talent and athleticism that has a chance against the US. Again, they project to have much better tools and talent to matchup against the US than probably any team I've ever seen (since NBAers were allowed to compete)
    I don't really agree, certainly not when Rubio is in the mix.

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    I don't really agree, certainly not when Rubio is in the mix.
    I think you need it at pretty much all positions now, the way the US plays. Rubio is one man, who matches up against a PG. It also doesn't help when the other wings are completely inadequate defending NBAers.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    And I have some issues with this. They have trouble being a threat, even more so in the last Games, because they have almost ZERO athleticism that compares to the US, espeically on the wings. This would be a problem in the NBA even, as guys like Rudy (strength) and JC Navarro(size/athleticism) washed out. Imagine Memphis with defensively weak perimeter play...that is pretty close to what Spain would be in the NBA, IMO.

    This will not be a problem for Canada. They will be the only team with the combination of talent and athleticism that has a chance against the US. Again, they project to have much better tools and talent to matchup against the US than probably any team I've ever seen (since NBAers were allowed to compete), in my opinion.
    I gotta say I disagree with you on this one. Did you see the gold medal game last summer? It was damn close, and Marc Gasol had to miss a bunch of time because of foul trouble. AND they were minus Rubio.

    And then back in 2008, they took the US to the brink again, when they were starting Rubio as a seventeen year old.

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    Comparing the potential of the Canadian team of the future to the perennial #2 team in the world is a bit far fetched

    Spain has had an outstanding program for the last decade or so.. it goes beyond just the assembled talent... which, you still have to give to Spain.. proven vs potential is an easy bet

    When is the last time Canada has even cracked the top 20?

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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    I gotta say I disagree with you on this one. Did you see the gold medal game last summer? It was damn close, and Marc Gasol had to miss a bunch of time because of foul trouble. AND they were minus Rubio.

    And then back in 2008, they took the US to the brink again, when they were starting Rubio as a seventeen year old.
    Or you can look at it and say that Marc Gasol had to foul so much becase their perimeter D was letting people in. You could say that matchups were always going to be a problem and make it supremely difficult for Spain force their will on the game. I saw the Gold Medal game start to finish with another huge bball fan. We both agreed watching it that Spain never had a chance*. The score was closer than the game should've been. Frankly I don't think the US played their best game (which they had to in 2008). *Or rather, that Spain winning in 2012 would've been because the US underperformed, not that Spain beat them at their best.

    Regardless, all this is getting off topic, which is the Canadian team....Do you believe that the Canadian team can be better than the current Spanish team, or rather, the only team that could contend with and possibly beat the US in 2016 and/or 2020?
    I think they will have a chance, at least for 2020. 2016 is going to be more about establishing a foundation, but I hope they at least make the eliminations and even semis. Wiggins will be a huge wildcard since he could have the potential to dominate any game.

    My basis for this right now, mostly just the frontcourt.....
    -Wiggins at SF, could be the best SF in the world.
    -Bennett/Thompson/Olynyk frontcourt, extremely fast, athletic, and versatile, not even counting guys liek Sacre and Nicholson who'll be depth players.
    -Of those 3, I think Bennett's got a shot at being a legit all-star. Dude is a beast who can score from anywhere, is fast and strong, rebounds like mad, and has explosiveness. If he were 6'9'' instead of 6'7'', I'm 99% sure he'd be the #1 pick this year (post-Noel injury of course), and 100% sure he'd be a top 2-3 pick.
    -Add to that they do have talent growing at other positions too, including some capable, if not spectacular PGs.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Apr 9th, 2013 at 10:37 AM.

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    Comparing the potential of the Canadian team of the future to the perennial #2 team in the world is a bit far fetched

    Spain has had an outstanding program for the last decade or so.. it goes beyond just the assembled talent... which, you still have to give to Spain.. proven vs potential is an easy bet

    When is the last time Canada has even cracked the top 20?
    When's the last time Canada led the world in foreign NBAers? That is what projects to happen over the next few years.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Or you can look at it and say that Marc Gasol had to foul so much becase their perimeter D was letting people in. You could say that matchups were always going to be a problem and make it supremely difficult for Spain force their will on the game. I saw the Gold Medal game start to finish with another huge bball fan. We both agreed watching it that Spain never had a chance*. The score was closer than the game should've been. Frankly I don't think the US played their best game (which they had to in 2008). *Or rather, that Spain winning in 2012 would've been because the US underperformed, not that Spain beat them at their best.

    Regardless, all this is getting off topic, which is the Canadian team....Do you believe that the Canadian team can be better than the current Spanish team, or rather, the only team that could contend with and possibly beat the US in 2016 and/or 2020?
    I think they will have a chance, at least for 2020. 2016 is going to be more about establishing a foundation, but I hope they at least make the eliminations and even semis. Wiggins will be a huge wildcard since he could have the potential to dominate any game.

    My basis for this right now, mostly just the frontcourt.....
    -Wiggins at SF, could be the best SF in the world.
    -Bennett/Thompson/Olynyk frontcourt, extremely fast, athletic, and versatile, not even counting guys liek Sacre and Nicholson who'll be depth players.
    -Of those 3, I think Bennett's got a shot at being a legit all-star. Dude is a beast who can score from anywhere, is fast and strong, rebounds like mad, and has explosiveness. If he were 6'9'' instead of 6'7'', I'm 99% sure he'd be the #1 pick this year (post-Noel injury of course), and 100% sure he'd be a top 2-3 pick.
    -Add to that they do have talent growing at other positions too, including some capable, if not spectacular PGs.
    Just to keep things off topic ...

    I just disagree that Spain never had a chance. Pau Gasol was playing incredibly, and the thing about basketball seems to be, if you have the best player on the floor, you have a chance to win even if the overall talent level of his teammates is much less than the overall talent of the opposition (hence Lebron's Cleveland team making the finals. Hence Howard's Orlando team making the finals.)

    And as for Marc in that game:

    1. He just should have played smarter. When you mean as much to your team as he does, sometimes you gotta let a layup go by.

    2. I remember thinking that some of his fouls were ticky tack, and definitely avoidable.

    3. I might be wrong about this, but I believe that he picked up his fourth foul in the first half. That's just a straight up boneheaded move, both on his coach's part and on his own part.

    As for Canada,

    it wouldn't surprise me at all if we had the second ranked team by 2020.

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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    Just to keep things off topic ...

    I just disagree that Spain never had a chance. Pau Gasol was playing incredibly, and the thing about basketball seems to be, if you have the best player on the floor, you have a chance to win even if the overall talent level of his teammates is much less than the overall talent of the opposition (hence Lebron's Cleveland team making the finals. Hence Howard's Orlando team making the finals.)

    And as for Marc in that game:

    1. He just should have played smarter. When you mean as much to your team as he does, sometimes you gotta let a layup go by.

    2. I remember thinking that some of his fouls were ticky tack, and definitely avoidable.

    3. I might be wrong about this, but I believe that he picked up his fourth foul in the first half. That's just a straight up boneheaded move, both on his coach's part and on his own part.

    As for Canada,

    it wouldn't surprise me at all if we had the second ranked team by 2020.
    I did amend my statement to be more along the lines of Spain's chance was much too dependent on the USA playing an off game. As in, despite Spain's scrappiness and the score, control of the game was pretty much always in USA's hands. As in, after the game, Americans would be saying "Spain didn't win this game, we lost it" type of thing.

    The way I see it, it would be a huge disappointment if Canada isn't #2 (at least in it's finish, if not rankings) in 2020, and I would like to see a finals as competitive as the 2008 Games (arguably the greatest single basketball game of all time, and definitely the greatest international game).

    Finally, the bold is just to piont out that Wiggins is basically the consensus best wing prospect since Durant, if not Lebron. That means Canada could potentially always have the best player on the floor, even when playing the US. The last time a team could say that was when Sabonis was in his prime.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Apr 9th, 2013 at 11:13 AM.

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    Comparing the potential of the Canadian team of the future to the perennial #2 team in the world is a bit far fetched

    Spain has had an outstanding program for the last decade or so.. it goes beyond just the assembled talent... which, you still have to give to Spain.. proven vs potential is an easy bet

    When is the last time Canada has even cracked the top 20?
    I don't think it is if you look at the influex of talent coming out of Canada. Andrew wiggins, Anthony Bennett, Tristan Thompson, kabongo, Corey Joseph, kris Joseph, XRM(surprised no one mentioned him), Kelly olynick, Kevin pangos, Andrew Nicholson, and sacre.

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    I don't think it is if you look at the influex of talent coming out of Canada. Andrew wiggins, Anthony Bennett, Tristan Thompson, kabongo, Corey Joseph, kris Joseph, XRM(surprised no one mentioned him), Kelly olynick, Kevin pangos, Andrew Nicholson, and sacre.
    the thing is it's an influx of POTENTIAL talent. Not a single one of them is proven yet.

    all that is right now is a list of names with the possibility of being talented.

    add to that Canada Basketball's track record.

    versus, Spain.

    Proven roster, proven players, proven national system.

    Saying that the national team is going to be on Spain's level is like saying the Hornets are going to be on the Lakers' level in a couple of years.

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    the thing is it's an influx of POTENTIAL talent. Not a single one of them is proven yet.

    all that is right now is a list of names with the possibility of being talented.

    add to that Canada Basketball's track record.

    versus, Spain.

    Proven roster, proven players, proven national system.

    Saying that the national team is going to be on Spain's level is like saying the Hornets are going to be on the Lakers' level in a couple of years.
    That is true but i doubt spain has anyone that has the talent of A Wiggs. He's the best SF prospect since LeBron and he's had a more successful high school career than LBJ (I'm Pretty sure). Having him alone would increase the teams talent big time. Give these guys 2 -3 years and they'll be ballin like crazy.

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    the thing is it's an influx of POTENTIAL talent. Not a single one of them is proven yet.

    all that is right now is a list of names with the possibility of being talented.

    add to that Canada Basketball's track record.

    versus, Spain.

    Proven roster, proven players, proven national system.

    Saying that the national team is going to be on Spain's level is like saying the Hornets are going to be on the Lakers' level in a couple of years.
    But this potential talent has already held their own against the top players in the world of their own age, whether it be in international play or in college/high school, and success at those levels tends to continue on. Which is why I feel confident that this team will eventually be very strong.

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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    But this potential talent has already held their own against the top players in the world of their own age, whether it be in international play or in college/high school, and success at those levels tends to continue on. Which is why I feel confident that this team will eventually be very strong.
    There's SO MUCH more to factor in though.

    On the adult national level, who's mentoring these kids? The veteran leadership on the Spanish team is FAR superior to Canada. Would you rather a young up and coming big man to follow the example of? The Gasol brothers, or Joel Anthony?

    Then there's the actual national organization. There's no Canadian basketball identity. The only Canadian players getting recognition are the small number of them getting recognition in the US. What about within our own country? What happens when one of the potentially talented players falls well short of the projections? What's the backup plan? Is there enough of a basketball system in Canada, that they have a well of talent to draw from? in short, NO there isn't. Basketball in Canada is HORRIBLY underfunded. Our system of developing talent internally is almost non-existent. Who here watched the All-Canada Classic last year? I'm going to bet very few, if any at all. Rogers TV isn't a hot television destination

    Canada Basketball depends on players being developed outside of their system, in the US's system. Where the US is developing THOUSANDS of young players, we're developing a few dozen players, relying on the miniscule amount of players we send over there to be as competitive as the top 5% of their thousands. Meanwhile, our internal system is a forgotten entity. CIS ball is basically treated like it's a glorified rec league.

    And then there's the coaching.

    Jay Triano. That's all.

    I'm not trying to shit on the national team. nothing would make me happier for all of them to turn out to be world killers and bring about a basketball renaissance in the country. but realistically, come on.

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    There's SO MUCH more to factor in though.

    On the adult national level, who's mentoring these kids? The veteran leadership on the Spanish team is FAR superior to Canada. Would you rather a young up and coming big man to follow the example of? The Gasol brothers, or Joel Anthony?

    Then there's the actual national organization. There's no Canadian basketball identity. The only Canadian players getting recognition are the small number of them getting recognition in the US. What about within our own country? What happens when one of the potentially talented players falls well short of the projections? What's the backup plan? Is there enough of a basketball system in Canada, that they have a well of talent to draw from? in short, NO there isn't. Basketball in Canada is HORRIBLY underfunded. Our system of developing talent internally is almost non-existent. Who here watched the All-Canada Classic last year? I'm going to bet very few, if any at all. Rogers TV isn't a hot television destination

    Canada Basketball depends on players being developed outside of their system, in the US's system. Where the US is developing THOUSANDS of young players, we're developing a few dozen players, relying on the miniscule amount of players we send over there to be as competitive as the top 5% of their thousands. Meanwhile, our internal system is a forgotten entity. CIS ball is basically treated like it's a glorified rec league.

    And then there's the coaching.

    Jay Triano. That's all.

    I'm not trying to shit on the national team. nothing would make me happier for all of them to turn out to be world killers and bring about a basketball renaissance in the country. but realistically, come on.
    Bang on.

    Bolded: Why do you think so many players go to highschool in the US?

    Wiggins and XRM attending the same school is about the only Canadian "identity" right now.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    Bang on.

    Bolded: Why do you think so many players go to highschool in the US?

    Wiggins and XRM attending the same school is about the only Canadian "identity" right now.
    The same reason that many of the best foreign players play high school ball in the US: better competition and more exposure, which makes it more likely that they'll play at a major US university, which makes it more likely that they'll be drafted in the NBA.

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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    The same reason that many of the best foreign players play high school ball in the US: better competition and more exposure, which makes it more likely that they'll play at a major US university, which makes it more likely that they'll be drafted in the NBA.
    Do many of the best foreign players play highschool ball?

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    There's SO MUCH more to factor in though.

    On the adult national level, who's mentoring these kids? The veteran leadership on the Spanish team is FAR superior to Canada. Would you rather a young up and coming big man to follow the example of? The Gasol brothers, or Joel Anthony?

    Then there's the actual national organization. There's no Canadian basketball identity. The only Canadian players getting recognition are the small number of them getting recognition in the US. What about within our own country? What happens when one of the potentially talented players falls well short of the projections? What's the backup plan? Is there enough of a basketball system in Canada, that they have a well of talent to draw from? in short, NO there isn't. Basketball in Canada is HORRIBLY underfunded. Our system of developing talent internally is almost non-existent. Who here watched the All-Canada Classic last year? I'm going to bet very few, if any at all. Rogers TV isn't a hot television destination

    Canada Basketball depends on players being developed outside of their system, in the US's system. Where the US is developing THOUSANDS of young players, we're developing a few dozen players, relying on the miniscule amount of players we send over there to be as competitive as the top 5% of their thousands. Meanwhile, our internal system is a forgotten entity. CIS ball is basically treated like it's a glorified rec league.

    And then there's the coaching.

    Jay Triano. That's all.

    I'm not trying to shit on the national team. nothing would make me happier for all of them to turn out to be world killers and bring about a basketball renaissance in the country. but realistically, come on.
    A lot of what you say here is true, but I think what people including myself are excited about is the potential for a lot of these things to start to change. Yeah, there's a lack of veterans who would be great mentors (though Steve Nash working with the young PGs, as he did last summer, is about as great a learning experience as you can hope for). But by 2020, some of these guys are going to have 8+ years experience in the NBA, as well as several major international tournaments. By that point, they'll be ready to mentor the young guys coming up. Maybe we even have veterans who have been a part of championship teams in the NBA.

    The depth issue is also changing. It's not unrealistic to think that by 2020, he have as many as 25 players playing in the NBA, in d-leagues, or in top leagues in Europe (compared to only half-a-dozen a few years ago). Guys who would have been starters on Team Canada a few years ago probably wouldn't be able to make the cut in a few years. Yeah, it's still worlds behind the US in terms of number of players produced, but so is every other nation. As with other nations who rival Canada in hockey, what matters is top end talent, not sheer volume of players.

    Yes, Basketball Canada is underfunded, and completely outside the spotlight in the Canadian sports scene. But one superstar and one really good tournament will change that. If Wiggins develops into a superstar and participates in our national tournaments (as he's shown every indication he will to this point), corporations will be lining up to sponsor the team. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that this year was the first year TSN picked up the MacDonalds All-American Game, because they know that there's enough interest in Wiggins that it's worth their while.

    I honestly don't have a problem with most of our players being developed in the US prep schools and NCAA. If that's the best and most competitive development system in the world, why wouldn't we want our guys going through there? As Basketball Canada gets better funding as their international results improve, they can do more, but what's the benefit in pouring money into duplicating a system that already exists south of the border and is entirely available to our kids? Instead, Basketball Canada needs to get as many kids as possible playing at a young age, identify talent as early as possible, and make sure that coaches at all levels have the knowledge and skill necessary to help these guys grow. But once they're sixteen or so, I'm fine with guys going the prep-school and NCAA route, as long as they're still playing for the national team at every available opportunity, and the national program is giving them all the additional support they need outside of their school to continue to develop. All of those top NCAA prospects playing together on CIA Bounce helps foster some chemistry and camaraderie amongst our best.

    In the one-step-at-a-time approach, let's see how many top players Basketball Canada can get out for FIBA Americas in August, and see if they can finish top 4 and get a qualification for FIBA Worlds next year.

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    Honestly Canada basketball is rapidly increasing in popularity and exposure. The NBL seems like nothing right now, but a couple of years down the road i can see it being like the CHL or CFL. Where we'll actually see players from the NBL enter the draft and get drafted. Basketball is getting steadily popular in Canada as it should

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