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  • #16
    It's not an argument. I didn't say Drummond can't shoot free throws, therefore he sucks. I said Drummond has a low skill level, and in his case, free throws are a very good example of that. You bring up Duncan and his 68%...but we're talkign 34-35% here....that's dreadful. It's like the guy has never shot a basketball in his life.

    Can Drummond dominate on D just with his size and athleticism? Sure, he can be a real force there. His game could always be limited though if he stays raw. I mentioned it earlier, and NoProps brought it up too, but basically he looks like DeAndre Jordan, and that's not really a very complete player.

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    • #17
      Original draft thoughts: I want Jeremy Lamb/Austin Rivers!

      Thoughts on draft afterwards: Hmmmm, Terrence Ross might be a solid player.

      Thoughts on draft now: Andre Drummond, Andre Drummond, Andre Drummond.

      I agree with Craiger's argument on free throw shooting being irrelevant to this topic of conversation, because like he said, so many of the recent past/now great bigs, were/are terrible free throw shooters.

      Drummond is an athletic monster, a freak of nature. Quite frankly, he's got a great demeanor too, and doesn't sulk and have his head down 24/7 unlike a certain rookie on the Raptors. So far, he's proven many of the scouts wrong about his motor, he's working every possession. He might not have a Michael Kidd-Gilchrist/Thomas Robinson motor, but he definitely gets work done in the paint, on both ends.
      I do agree with the fact that Drummond isn't very skilled with his back to the basket, but because of his athletic ability, youth, and physical strength, there's no denying he can be a force IF he develops some type of post game. Although, I would say Drummond is extremely effective in the pick-&-roll. That's why many said the biggest beneficiary of the Calderon trade would be Drummond, because both of them excel in that simple game.

      Looking back at the draft, there has to be a good reason Colangelo did not draft Drummond. Many said it was because of the log jam at the four. Had the Gay trade still went, AND we drafted Drummond, it definitely would have been appropriate, because now he fills a need and is the BPA. Not to mention he's got miles the potential than Ross.

      If anything, Drummond's ceiling is Deandre Jordan, which in my opinion is telling of how good this guy can be. I certainly believe a big tandem for the future - key word, future - of Drummond and Valanciunas would be effective. Drummond's athletic ability at the four against most of today's fours wouldn't put the team at an disadvantage, especially because he's also physically strong to handle the typical NBA fours.

      I'm one of those who say "why are we looking back on something that we obviously can't change", but this is an exception because it was definitely possible (and it would've been the right pick) with Lillard/Barnes not falling.
      Last edited by ReubenJRD; Tue Apr 2, 2013, 07:25 PM.
      Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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      • #18
        white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        It's not an argument. I didn't say Drummond can't shoot free throws, therefore he sucks. I said Drummond has a low skill level, and in his case, free throws are a very good example of that. You bring up Duncan and his 68%...but we're talkign 34-35% here....that's dreadful. It's like the guy has never shot a basketball in his life.

        Can Drummond dominate on D just with his size and athleticism? Sure, he can be a real force there. His game could always be limited though if he stays raw. I mentioned it earlier, and NoProps brought it up too, but basically he looks like DeAndre Jordan, and that's not really a very complete player.
        Nor did I said you did. What you did say was Free Throws represent skill level - and how much higher of a % Duncan shoots is irrelevant.

        If Free Throw % = Skill and Duncan's Free Throw % = below average therefore Duncan's skill is below average.
        If Free Throw % = Skill and Shaq's Free Throw % = bad, therefore Shaq's skill is bad

        Either its a true statement or its not.... you can't have your cake and eat it to.

        To the 2nd bold - being a 'complete' player is itself a relative term. Why does a big man need a jump shot? Is it nice to have? Sure. But its not a necessity. Again the list of different bigs I gave above with no jump shot yet were still dominate players or game changers in their own right- winning titles, going to finals, MVP considerations etc.


        I think Raptor fans have become jaded with the finesse big men Colangelo covets. For a big man to be good, or great, or a superstar - he doesn't need to hit a 16fter or try and take guys off the dribble.

        RaptorReuben

        I think passing on Drummond is going to haunt the Raptors. A Drummond/Val front court could have been a potent force down the road. I think its yet again a great example of why lottery teams should always be drafting the BPA and not for need. You not only miss out on the best player, but your needs can change real quick.

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        • #19
          Craiger wrote: View Post
          Nor did I said you did. What you did say was Free Throws represent skill level - and how much higher of a % Duncan shoots is irrelevant.

          If Free Throw % = Skill and Duncan's Free Throw % = below average therefore Duncan's skill is below average.
          If Free Throw % = Skill and Shaq's Free Throw % = bad, therefore Shaq's skill is bad

          Either its a true statement or its not.... you can't have your cake and eat it to.

          To the 2nd bold - being a 'complete' player is itself a relative term. Why does a big man need a jump shot? Is it nice to have? Sure. But its not a necessity. Again the list of different bigs I gave above with no jump shot yet were still dominate players or game changers in their own right- winning titles, going to finals, MVP considerations etc.


          I think Raptor fans have become jaded with the finesse big men Colangelo covets. For a big man to be good, or great, or a superstar - he doesn't need to hit a 16fter or try and take guys off the dribble.

          RaptorReuben

          I think passing on Drummond is going to haunt the Raptors. A Drummond/Val front court could have been a potent force down the road. I think its yet again a great example of why lottery teams should always be drafting the BPA and not for need. You not only miss out on the best player, but your needs can change real quick.
          Key statement right there. Plus, remember when BC came out and made the deal? He was saying the fact he's been pursuing Rudy Gay since last off-season, which speaks volume to "your needs can change real quick."

          I mean, you draft Ross, and you already have Derozan and Anderson available at the 2, assuming that Fields started, Kleiza came off the bench. Before the Gay trade, we already had an assortment of wings at our disposal. Add in Gay + Pietrus signing, there you have it. Drummond gets drafted, you had Davis leaving, Amir stays as an effective 3rd big, and Drummond steps right in with Valanciunas.

          Like I said in the previous, I personally think it's silly to go back and say "what if, what if", but like you said, it could really come back and bite the Raptors and front office in the ass.
          Last edited by ReubenJRD; Wed Apr 3, 2013, 01:53 AM.
          Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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          • #20
            Craiger wrote: View Post
            Nor did I said you did. What you did say was Free Throws represent skill level - and how much higher of a % Duncan shoots is irrelevant.

            If Free Throw % = Skill and Duncan's Free Throw % = below average therefore Duncan's skill is below average.
            If Free Throw % = Skill and Shaq's Free Throw % = bad, therefore Shaq's skill is bad

            Either its a true statement or its not.... you can't have your cake and eat it to.


            To the 2nd bold - being a 'complete' player is itself a relative term. Why does a big man need a jump shot? Is it nice to have? Sure. But its not a necessity. Again the list of different bigs I gave above with no jump shot yet were still dominate players or game changers in their own right- winning titles, going to finals, MVP considerations etc.


            I think Raptor fans have become jaded with the finesse big men Colangelo covets. For a big man to be good, or great, or a superstar - he doesn't need to hit a 16fter or try and take guys off the dribble.

            RaptorReuben

            I think passing on Drummond is going to haunt the Raptors. A Drummond/Val front court could have been a potent force down the road. I think its yet again a great example of why lottery teams should always be drafting the BPA and not for need. You not only miss out on the best player, but your needs can change real quick.
            No I didn't say it represented skill, I said it can be related to skill level. This is a wholly different concept. What I'm saying is that it is not surprising to see a poor free throw shooter also lag behind in other areas of skill. And with Drummond, his ft shooting is just that, a nice example of his poor skill. I could just be saying this out of my ass, but I feel like there are probably a lot more poor FT% shooters who were all around terrible players than there were dominant players.

            As for your comment on Colangelo and finesse bigs....what are you talking about? My opinion has entirely nothing to do with Colangelo and his bigs. The best bigs bring a solid 2-way dynamic, and don't rely entirely on physical gifts because those are fleeting and unreliable. Jabar could shoot his hook shot from 20 ft away. Hakeem had jumpers and post moves he could make from just about anywhere 15 ft and in. Even David Robinson, who was an athletic freak, had a decent ft line jumper.

            To shoot one back at you, I think you've become jaded by the lack of quality big men in this league. Skilled big men are just so rare now that for some reason they get seen as finesse players....Is JV a finesse guy? Is Demarcus Cousins? Is Marc Gasol? Good bigs used to bring the total package, now too many people IMO have become satiated by just seeing a big guy who jumps high.

            Oh, and also, part of my issue in general is I really don't believe Drummond will be able to defend PFs. Watching him the last couple of Raps games against them, and the bits and pieces I've seen of him...he's a C. He's athletic and explosive for a C, but I don't see him keeping up with PFs on a regular basis. So that's why I'm not really into the debate of "what if", because I don't think it would work long-term at all. Best case, it would give a very very good trade chip for down the road.

            I just wanted to add that FT shooting is a legit skill. Imagine how much more dominant Howard would be if he shot 75%. Teams couldn't hack him, and it could net him at least 2-3 points more per game, not to mention more than that on nights where he makes lots of trips, which are common even without the hack-a-Dwight. IT is a legit skill when it can affect your ability to be on the floor at the most important part of the game. Being a dominant player is somewhat difficult if you can't be out there.
            Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Apr 3, 2013, 07:32 PM.

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            • #21
              My biggest concern with Drummond is his body. I've never felt he was going to be able to hold up to an 82 game season.

              My second concern is his work ethic and ball IQ. You put JV's work ethic and IQ in Drummond and suddenly you are talking greatest big EVER! OK slight exaggeration but it would be staggering.

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              • #22
                Vykis wrote: View Post
                I like Drummond, but this is embarassing...
                And fairly common occurrence for Drummond.

                I wanted the Raps to draft Drummond because I thought he was more likely to become an all-star player than JV (and a higher chance to become a bust but I was OK with that). That opinion has not changed except that the floor for Drummond is no longer a bust.

                I seriously doubt Drummond will ever play the on offense 4 because he has absolutely no range. 289 of the 317 shots he has taken this season were from very close proximity to the basket. Playing the 4 on defense would also minimize Drummond's greatest asset in my opinion, which is his ability to alter shots.

                http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/pl.../2012-2013-REG

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