Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 55

Thread: The "dilemma" facing the Raptors.

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Here's a bigger dilemma facing the Raptors.

    Given that:

    1) Colangelo's contract will be up next season (assuming his option is picked up)
    2) unless this team falls apart next season, they are unlikely to tank and rebuild

    what does the team do with BC if the team makes the playoffs?

    Do they resign BC despite the past 7 season and reward him for getting to playoffs and allow him to run the team for an extended period of time (3-5 years) to keep his team going. Or do they let him go and bringing in a new GM who would likely look to make significant changes, despite finally making the playoffs after all the years of 'building'?

    [I know I'm making a few assumptions here (BC gets his option picked up) but I think thats almost a given considering the big moves that were allowed this season, and that the Raps aren't contenders next season, which would arguably make it rather easy to resing BC. Also missing the playoffs next season I would think makes it a given that Colangelo won't be extended. ]

    That, I think is the huge dilemma facing this organization. Would one year of 'success' be enough to justify an extension after years of failure? vs finally finding that 'success' and reaching a goal, and then replacing the guy who did it?

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    2,106
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    what does the team do with BC if the team makes the playoffs?

    Do they resign BC despite the past 7 season and reward him for getting to playoffs and allow him to run the team for an extended period of time (3-5 years) to keep his team going. Or do they let him go and bringing in a new GM who would likely look to make significant changes, despite finally making the playoffs after all the years of 'building'?

    That, I think is the huge dilemma facing this organization. Would one year of 'success' be enough to justify an extension after years of failure? vs finally finding that 'success' and reaching a goal, and then replacing the guy who did it?
    Won't be an issue. This team isn't making the playoffs next year.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Starter bloodyhandedgod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    245
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    #1 is the only viable option. A team doesn't draft in the lottery for 4 straight seasons (DeRozan, Davis, Valanciunas and Ross), then trade a future 1st round pick for a young starting PG and make a blockbuster deal for a high priced 2nd-tier star, only to turnaround and start another complete rebuild from scratch. This isn't even a legit discussion, as far as the Raptors are concerned.

    Even if all the Raptors players died and a rebuild from scratch was required, there's no guarantee that the Raps be the 'best' at tanking ahead of the 2014 draft, there's no guarantee that the Raps would win the 2014 draft lottery and there's no guarantee that any players in the 2014 draft lottery will go on to become superstars. That's not even a strategy, it's just dumb luck, wishful thinking and hope.
    Damn well put.
    I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, hes listed as Chu Chu. I think hes worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name. -Tim W.

  4. #24
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    3,250
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Guys we don't need to tank and rebuild

    1 of 2 things will happen.

    DeRozan/Gay/Lowry/Bargnani will gel magnificently next season as they should on paper OR

    they won't and we will have Ross, Amir and JV to build around and shit tonne of money to do it with in 2015

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    856
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Here's a bigger dilemma facing the Raptors.

    Given that:

    1) Colangelo's contract will be up next season (assuming his option is picked up)
    2) unless this team falls apart next season, they are unlikely to tank and rebuild

    what does the team do with BC if the team makes the playoffs?

    Do they resign BC despite the past 7 season and reward him for getting to playoffs and allow him to run the team for an extended period of time (3-5 years) to keep his team going. Or do they let him go and bringing in a new GM who would likely look to make significant changes, despite finally making the playoffs after all the years of 'building'?

    [I know I'm making a few assumptions here (BC gets his option picked up) but I think thats almost a given considering the big moves that were allowed this season, and that the Raps aren't contenders next season, which would arguably make it rather easy to resing BC. Also missing the playoffs next season I would think makes it a given that Colangelo won't be extended. ]

    That, I think is the huge dilemma facing this organization. Would one year of 'success' be enough to justify an extension after years of failure? vs finally finding that 'success' and reaching a goal, and then replacing the guy who did it?

    Some very good points. I agree that considering the moves he's been allowed to make, it's safe to assume that BC stays(option year). Putting myself in MLSE's shoes, I think an extension for BC would depend on how they make the play-offs. If 35-37 wins are sufficient and they therefore make the play-offs they should fire him. If the team shows improvement to win 42-44 wins, he should be retained.

    IMO they should make a decision around the All-Star break 'cause by that time they'll have a fairly good idea of where the team is going. If there's good improvement, stay the course and retain him and if there isn't, fire him and like when Babcock was fired, have an interim GM clean up and create Cap space as much as possible. This should give Raps. a chance to fall to be bottom of the pack and hopefully get a top 5-6 pick in the draft that follows.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,399
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    What is the goal for this team and organization? What is BC's plan? It's almost impossible to tell and I would argue that this outfit isn't moving in a specific direction. It just doesn't seem that BC, DC, and all the players are on the same page. Regardless of the lineup, this team will never contend with that prevailing fault. So, I wish there was a better sense of where this team is going, or trying to go. And it's obvious that the fans on this forum are confused as well.

    I think the goal should be to produce a competitive lineup that can go deep in the 2014/15 playoffs, or more realistically the year after. To do this we should remain financially flexible for the 2014 offseason free agent class. Although its difficult to attract top tier free agents to TO, I believe BC ( or his replacement) should be as active as possible. Not trying, or not having the flexibility to try, would be much worse than some players saying "I'm not interested".

    So, where do we go from here? Rebuilding isn't really an option as CalgaryRapsFan pointed out. So we have to try and improve what we have yet still have the flexibility to participate in 2014 free agency. This doesn't give us many options. Kleiza or BArgs will most likely be amnestied. Bargs will have $23 mil remaining over two years in the offseason, Kleiza only $4.6 mil and Bargs is a better trade chip. So, we amnesty Kleiza. We attempt to trade Bargs in the off season for an expiring contract. This means Boozer isn't an option. We may need to package Bargs with Derozan, and I am ok with this for the right return. And Lowry probably gets extended as well.

    This would leave us with JV, AJ, RG, KL, LF and TR as the 2014 FA sweepstakes began and lots of cap room. That's not bad especially if this team works better together next year and JV and TR show some good improvement. It may even be enough to attract a top tier FA.

    I'm not sold on Lowry yet though. Even if he gets extended we may have to consider moving him as well. If BC wants Lowry to play like Calderon, than why didn't he just keep Calderon? We need to utilize Lowry's strengths, and much of that is offense. If he is to remain on this team, I'd like to see him play more like the Lowry we saw at the beginning of the season. More assertive and aggressive with his driving and offense. He should take it to the basket more and he should shoot more free throws. Our main offensive threats should be Gay, JV, and Lowry. However, he still has to improve on the pick n roll. Our return for Bargs and Derozan should include a SG that can defend and shoot distance shots well. A player like Sefalosha would be nice.

    In any event, I'd like some sense of direction with this teams management, and a future that includes JV and AJ at the least.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,301
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    No way they are tanking, but I've always maintained this is what they should have done in order to try and acquire a star player then try and build around that star. Since BC was never able to properly tank I was and still am in support of the trade for Gay and at this point there is nothing else they can do, but go further into the hole with spending to try and improve the team. They should do this we short term contracts if they can.

    My opinion on tanking is some what in line with the following speech which has nothing to do with tanking...sorry, wasn't able to attach the video from work.

    Jessup: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom! You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall! You need me on that wall! We use words like "honor", "code", "loyalty". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "Thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

  8. #28
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,016
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    LOL, how do you propose this massive "tank" be executed? With a rapidly improving JV, a healthy Rudy/Lowry/Fields, an again improved DD, everybody with a year under their belt of playing together, how the hell could they tank? What would you do to ensure a "worthwhile tank"?

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,681
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    LOL, how do you propose this massive "tank" be executed? With a rapidly improving JV, a healthy Rudy/Lowry/Fields, an again improved DD, everybody with a year under their belt of playing together, how the hell could they tank? What would you do to ensure a "worthwhile tank"?
    Play Andrea 40 minutes a night and keep Amir on the bench for under 20 minutes a night.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    856
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    LOL, how do you propose this massive "tank" be executed? With a rapidly improving JV, a healthy Rudy/Lowry/Fields, an again improved DD, everybody with a year under their belt of playing together, how the hell could they tank? What would you do to ensure a "worthwhile tank"?
    If you're asking me the question, here's the answer. Before that though, I'm not in favour of tanking therefore the title "dilemma Raps..." not 'Let's tank'. The thread was started for the sake of good discussion.

    However, here's how tanking is possible:

    -If Demar was not signed to an extn., naturally a few teams would have been interested in him. For the sake of argument, let's say Detroit(money to spend) would have been the forerunner. Detroit offers FA Demar 4yr 40mil. and then does a S & T with Toronto for a 1st rounder. The same thing is done in the off-season the only difference being that it's not a S & T.
    -Amir has a lot of market value considering his play this season. Teams should be queue-ing up for him. Add Fields or Bargnani and take advantage of the demand for Amir and get an expiring contract or picks or cheaper contract/s in return.
    -Same goes for Lowry(expiring contract).
    -If necessary Ross.
    -more ways are possible which is why a GM is a GM.

    Note: Bargnani's and Gay's contracts expire at the end of 2015 therefore giving Raps. flexibility.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  11. #31
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,016
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    If you're asking me the question, here's the answer. Before that though, I'm not in favour of tanking therefore the title "dilemma Raps..." not 'Let's tank'. The thread was started for the sake of good discussion.

    However, here's how tanking is possible:

    -If Demar was not signed to an extn., naturally a few teams would have been interested in him. For the sake of argument, let's say Detroit(money to spend) would have been the forerunner. Detroit offers FA Demar 4yr 40mil. and then does a S & T with Toronto for a 1st rounder. The same thing is done in the off-season the only difference being that it's not a S & T.
    -Amir has a lot of market value considering his play this season. Teams should be queue-ing up for him. Add Fields or Bargnani and take advantage of the demand for Amir and get an expiring contract or picks or cheaper contract/s in return.
    -Same goes for Lowry(expiring contract).
    -If necessary Ross.
    -more ways are possible which is why a GM is a GM.

    Note: Bargnani's and Gay's contracts expire at the end of 2015 therefore giving Raps. flexibility.
    An example of what I figured. Fantasy basketball management at it's worst.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    856
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    An example of what I figured. Fantasy basketball management at it's worst.
    Your reply does not surprise me. Considering you began the conversation, what else can you say. Meanly put or not, a valid opinion or not, you're entitled to your opinion. It might also help to check my signature.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    2,034
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    An example of what I figured. Fantasy basketball management at it's worst.
    What do you mean by this? I'm genuinely asking. In terms figuring out a way to dis-assemble the team for next year, all of Eric's points were reasonable.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    856
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    What do you mean by this? I'm genuinely asking. In terms figuring out a way to dis-assemble the team for next year, all of Eric's points were reasonable.
    I know your question is not for me but I have taken the liberty to intrude 'cause I can't begin to express how supported your post makes me feel. Thank you so much Jim. To think something is reasonable, one has to be reasonable and I admire you for that. Once again, THANK YOU.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    2,134
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    #1 is the only viable option. A team doesn't draft in the lottery for 4 straight seasons (DeRozan, Davis, Valanciunas and Ross), then trade a future 1st round pick for a young starting PG and make a blockbuster deal for a high priced 2nd-tier star, only to turnaround and start another complete rebuild from scratch. This isn't even a legit discussion, as far as the Raptors are concerned.

    Even if all the Raptors players died and a rebuild from scratch was required, there's no guarantee that the Raps be the 'best' at tanking ahead of the 2014 draft, there's no guarantee that the Raps would win the 2014 draft lottery and there's no guarantee that any players in the 2014 draft lottery will go on to become superstars. That's not even a strategy, it's just dumb luck, wishful thinking and hope.
    I think many fans are on the same page as you. Time for a playoff appearance next year.

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    2,134
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    What is the goal for this team and organization? What is BC's plan? It's almost impossible to tell and I would argue that this outfit isn't moving in a specific direction. It just doesn't seem that BC, DC, and all the players are on the same page. Regardless of the lineup, this team will never contend with that prevailing fault. So, I wish there was a better sense of where this team is going, or trying to go. And it's obvious that the fans on this forum are confused as well.

    I think the goal should be to produce a competitive lineup that can go deep in the 2014/15 playoffs, or more realistically the year after. To do this we should remain financially flexible for the 2014 offseason free agent class. Although its difficult to attract top tier free agents to TO, I believe BC ( or his replacement) should be as active as possible. Not trying, or not having the flexibility to try, would be much worse than some players saying "I'm not interested".

    So, where do we go from here? Rebuilding isn't really an option as CalgaryRapsFan pointed out. So we have to try and improve what we have yet still have the flexibility to participate in 2014 free agency. This doesn't give us many options. Kleiza or BArgs will most likely be amnestied. Bargs will have $23 mil remaining over two years in the offseason, Kleiza only $4.6 mil and Bargs is a better trade chip. So, we amnesty Kleiza. We attempt to trade Bargs in the off season for an expiring contract. This means Boozer isn't an option. We may need to package Bargs with Derozan, and I am ok with this for the right return. And Lowry probably gets extended as well.

    This would leave us with JV, AJ, RG, KL, LF and TR as the 2014 FA sweepstakes began and lots of cap room. That's not bad especially if this team works better together next year and JV and TR show some good improvement. It may even be enough to attract a top tier FA.

    I'm not sold on Lowry yet though. Even if he gets extended we may have to consider moving him as well. If BC wants Lowry to play like Calderon, than why didn't he just keep Calderon? We need to utilize Lowry's strengths, and much of that is offense. If he is to remain on this team, I'd like to see him play more like the Lowry we saw at the beginning of the season. More assertive and aggressive with his driving and offense. He should take it to the basket more and he should shoot more free throws. Our main offensive threats should be Gay, JV, and Lowry. However, he still has to improve on the pick n roll. Our return for Bargs and Derozan should include a SG that can defend and shoot distance shots well. A player like Sefalosha would be nice.

    In any event, I'd like some sense of direction with this teams management, and a future that includes JV and AJ at the least.
    Do you think Casey should go given that Casey seems to be the source of push Lowry to be pass first point guard? I think Lowry should have complete freedom for the rest of the season and see how it plays out.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    2,134
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    What do you mean by this? I'm genuinely asking. In terms figuring out a way to dis-assemble the team for next year, all of Eric's points were reasonable.
    I was wondering the same thing....lol

  18. #38
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,016
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    If you're asking me the question, here's the answer. Before that though, I'm not in favour of tanking therefore the title "dilemma Raps..." not 'Let's tank'. The thread was started for the sake of good discussion.

    However, here's how tanking is possible:

    -If Demar was not signed to an extn., naturally a few teams would have been interested in him. For the sake of argument, let's say Detroit(money to spend) would have been the forerunner. Detroit offers FA Demar 4yr 40mil. and then does a S & T with Toronto for a 1st rounder. The same thing is done in the off-season the only difference being that it's not a S & T.
    -Amir has a lot of market value considering his play this season. Teams should be queue-ing up for him. Add Fields or Bargnani and take advantage of the demand for Amir and get an expiring contract or picks or cheaper contract/s in return.
    -Same goes for Lowry(expiring contract).
    -If necessary Ross.
    -more ways are possible which is why a GM is a GM.

    Note: Bargnani's and Gay's contracts expire at the end of 2015 therefore giving Raps. flexibility.
    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    An example of what I figured. Fantasy basketball management at it's worst.
    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Your reply does not surprise me. Considering you began the conversation, what else can you say. Meanly put or not, a valid opinion or not, you're entitled to your opinion. It might also help to check my signature.
    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    What do you mean by this? I'm genuinely asking. In terms figuring out a way to dis-assemble the team for next year, all of Eric's points were reasonable.
    Okay, let's go step by step.

    "-If Demar was not signed to an extn., naturally a few teams would have been interested in him. For the sake of argument, let's say Detroit(money to spend) would have been the forerunner. Detroit offers FA Demar 4yr 40mil. and then does a S & T with Toronto for a 1st rounder. The same thing is done in the off-season the only difference being that it's not a S & T."

    Remember, I asked how does one actually execute this massive "tank". Yes, it's safe to assume other teams would be interested in Demar, but which ones and in return for what? Was Detroit pulled out of the air (fantasy?), or is it a legit example? It's no example at all, as Detroit's 2014 1st rounder is owned by Charlotte (top 8 protected), so they can't offer it. In fact, because of that deal with Charlotte, they can't currently offer a 1st round pick of their own until 2018, unless Charlotte gets it before 2016. So, "reasonable point", or fantasy pie in the sky stuff with zero possibility?

    "Amir has a lot of market value considering his play this season. Teams should be queue-ing up for him. Add Fields or Bargnani and take advantage of the demand for Amir and get an expiring contract or picks or cheaper contract/s in return."

    I have no idea why someone would be suggesting unloading Amir (sooooo many reasons not to!), but this is nothing but some wishy-washy fantasy thinking that some imaginary team is going to take on Fields or Bargs, because they want Amir so much that they're willing to take on one of those contracts and give up some imaginary contract (s) and picks that would be of some value to the Raps. Any "reasonable" example, or just wishy-washy fantasy GMing with no regard for realities of trading in the real NBA?

    "-Same goes for Lowry(expiring contract)."

    Again, fantasy shuffling of players, with no example of anything real, that makes sense.

    "If necessary Ross."

    See all of the above.

    "more ways are possible which is why a GM is a GM."

    Well, nothing offered so far is anything other than imaginary player/pick shuffling with imaginary teams (except for the impossible suggestion with Detroit). I'd suggest that a GM's job is a little more complicated than that. Shoot, even fantasy basketball GMing isn't that simple, and you don't have to be concerned with how the players you've got left think about this BS going on, to say nothing of what owners and fans that buy season tickets think about it.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    2,106
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post

    Well, nothing offered so far is anything other than imaginary player/pick shuffling with imaginary teams (except for the impossible suggestion with Detroit). I'd suggest that a GM's job is a little more complicated than that. Shoot, even fantasy basketball GMing isn't that simple, and you don't have to be concerned with how the players you've got left think about this BS going on, to say nothing of what owners and fans that buy season tickets think about it.
    The condescending tone and dismissive stance toward posters is sure to win you friends and respect on a message board where people come to brainstorm their ideas. You're a true internet hero putting everyone in their place. Good for you, tiger. Now, get yourself a pat on the back and a cookie.

  20. #40
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,610
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Well, nothing offered so far is anything other than imaginary player/pick shuffling with imaginary teams (except for the impossible suggestion with Detroit). I'd suggest that a GM's job is a little more complicated than that. Shoot, even fantasy basketball GMing isn't that simple, and you don't have to be concerned with how the players you've got left think about this BS going on, to say nothing of what owners and fans that buy season tickets think about it.
    The crux of his argument is that any player is tradeable, especially if the short-term desire is to blatantly tank. The concept is sound and doesn't require specific trade details to be justified as a viable option. It's certainly a far-fetched, unlikely and near impossible option, but a valid one nonetheless.

    Get past the details of his suggested possible transactions (he did allude to the fact that it was up to the GM to be the GM, meaning he couldn't possibly know how the plan would actually get executed) and consider his plan more conceptually. I don't agree with him in the least, but it could happen (and has many time before).

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •