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The "dilemma" facing the Raptors.

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  • #31
    Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    If you're asking me the question, here's the answer. Before that though, I'm not in favour of tanking therefore the title "dilemma Raps..." not 'Let's tank'. The thread was started for the sake of good discussion.

    However, here's how tanking is possible:

    -If Demar was not signed to an extn., naturally a few teams would have been interested in him. For the sake of argument, let's say Detroit(money to spend) would have been the forerunner. Detroit offers FA Demar 4yr 40mil. and then does a S & T with Toronto for a 1st rounder. The same thing is done in the off-season the only difference being that it's not a S & T.
    -Amir has a lot of market value considering his play this season. Teams should be queue-ing up for him. Add Fields or Bargnani and take advantage of the demand for Amir and get an expiring contract or picks or cheaper contract/s in return.
    -Same goes for Lowry(expiring contract).
    -If necessary Ross.
    -more ways are possible which is why a GM is a GM.

    Note: Bargnani's and Gay's contracts expire at the end of 2015 therefore giving Raps. flexibility.
    An example of what I figured. Fantasy basketball management at it's worst.

    Comment


    • #32
      p00ka wrote: View Post
      An example of what I figured. Fantasy basketball management at it's worst.
      Your reply does not surprise me. Considering you began the conversation, what else can you say. Meanly put or not, a valid opinion or not, you're entitled to your opinion. It might also help to check my signature.
      Attitude Is A Choice.

      Comment


      • #33
        p00ka wrote: View Post
        An example of what I figured. Fantasy basketball management at it's worst.
        What do you mean by this? I'm genuinely asking. In terms figuring out a way to dis-assemble the team for next year, all of Eric's points were reasonable.
        "Stop eating your sushi."
        "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
        "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
        - Jack Armstrong

        Comment


        • #34
          JimiCliff wrote: View Post
          What do you mean by this? I'm genuinely asking. In terms figuring out a way to dis-assemble the team for next year, all of Eric's points were reasonable.
          I know your question is not for me but I have taken the liberty to intrude 'cause I can't begin to express how supported your post makes me feel. Thank you so much Jim. To think something is reasonable, one has to be reasonable and I admire you for that. Once again, THANK YOU.
          Attitude Is A Choice.

          Comment


          • #35
            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
            #1 is the only viable option. A team doesn't draft in the lottery for 4 straight seasons (DeRozan, Davis, Valanciunas and Ross), then trade a future 1st round pick for a young starting PG and make a blockbuster deal for a high priced 2nd-tier star, only to turnaround and start another complete rebuild from scratch. This isn't even a legit discussion, as far as the Raptors are concerned.

            Even if all the Raptors players died and a rebuild from scratch was required, there's no guarantee that the Raps be the 'best' at tanking ahead of the 2014 draft, there's no guarantee that the Raps would win the 2014 draft lottery and there's no guarantee that any players in the 2014 draft lottery will go on to become superstars. That's not even a strategy, it's just dumb luck, wishful thinking and hope.
            I think many fans are on the same page as you. Time for a playoff appearance next year.

            Comment


            • #36
              JawsGT wrote: View Post
              What is the goal for this team and organization? What is BC's plan? It's almost impossible to tell and I would argue that this outfit isn't moving in a specific direction. It just doesn't seem that BC, DC, and all the players are on the same page. Regardless of the lineup, this team will never contend with that prevailing fault. So, I wish there was a better sense of where this team is going, or trying to go. And it's obvious that the fans on this forum are confused as well.

              I think the goal should be to produce a competitive lineup that can go deep in the 2014/15 playoffs, or more realistically the year after. To do this we should remain financially flexible for the 2014 offseason free agent class. Although its difficult to attract top tier free agents to TO, I believe BC ( or his replacement) should be as active as possible. Not trying, or not having the flexibility to try, would be much worse than some players saying "I'm not interested".

              So, where do we go from here? Rebuilding isn't really an option as CalgaryRapsFan pointed out. So we have to try and improve what we have yet still have the flexibility to participate in 2014 free agency. This doesn't give us many options. Kleiza or BArgs will most likely be amnestied. Bargs will have $23 mil remaining over two years in the offseason, Kleiza only $4.6 mil and Bargs is a better trade chip. So, we amnesty Kleiza. We attempt to trade Bargs in the off season for an expiring contract. This means Boozer isn't an option. We may need to package Bargs with Derozan, and I am ok with this for the right return. And Lowry probably gets extended as well.

              This would leave us with JV, AJ, RG, KL, LF and TR as the 2014 FA sweepstakes began and lots of cap room. That's not bad especially if this team works better together next year and JV and TR show some good improvement. It may even be enough to attract a top tier FA.

              I'm not sold on Lowry yet though. Even if he gets extended we may have to consider moving him as well. If BC wants Lowry to play like Calderon, than why didn't he just keep Calderon? We need to utilize Lowry's strengths, and much of that is offense. If he is to remain on this team, I'd like to see him play more like the Lowry we saw at the beginning of the season. More assertive and aggressive with his driving and offense. He should take it to the basket more and he should shoot more free throws. Our main offensive threats should be Gay, JV, and Lowry. However, he still has to improve on the pick n roll. Our return for Bargs and Derozan should include a SG that can defend and shoot distance shots well. A player like Sefalosha would be nice.

              In any event, I'd like some sense of direction with this teams management, and a future that includes JV and AJ at the least.
              Do you think Casey should go given that Casey seems to be the source of push Lowry to be pass first point guard? I think Lowry should have complete freedom for the rest of the season and see how it plays out.

              Comment


              • #37
                JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                What do you mean by this? I'm genuinely asking. In terms figuring out a way to dis-assemble the team for next year, all of Eric's points were reasonable.
                I was wondering the same thing....lol

                Comment


                • #38
                  Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                  If you're asking me the question, here's the answer. Before that though, I'm not in favour of tanking therefore the title "dilemma Raps..." not 'Let's tank'. The thread was started for the sake of good discussion.

                  However, here's how tanking is possible:

                  -If Demar was not signed to an extn., naturally a few teams would have been interested in him. For the sake of argument, let's say Detroit(money to spend) would have been the forerunner. Detroit offers FA Demar 4yr 40mil. and then does a S & T with Toronto for a 1st rounder. The same thing is done in the off-season the only difference being that it's not a S & T.
                  -Amir has a lot of market value considering his play this season. Teams should be queue-ing up for him. Add Fields or Bargnani and take advantage of the demand for Amir and get an expiring contract or picks or cheaper contract/s in return.
                  -Same goes for Lowry(expiring contract).
                  -If necessary Ross.
                  -more ways are possible which is why a GM is a GM.

                  Note: Bargnani's and Gay's contracts expire at the end of 2015 therefore giving Raps. flexibility.
                  p00ka wrote: View Post
                  An example of what I figured. Fantasy basketball management at it's worst.
                  Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                  Your reply does not surprise me. Considering you began the conversation, what else can you say. Meanly put or not, a valid opinion or not, you're entitled to your opinion. It might also help to check my signature.
                  JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                  What do you mean by this? I'm genuinely asking. In terms figuring out a way to dis-assemble the team for next year, all of Eric's points were reasonable.
                  Okay, let's go step by step.

                  "-If Demar was not signed to an extn., naturally a few teams would have been interested in him. For the sake of argument, let's say Detroit(money to spend) would have been the forerunner. Detroit offers FA Demar 4yr 40mil. and then does a S & T with Toronto for a 1st rounder. The same thing is done in the off-season the only difference being that it's not a S & T."

                  Remember, I asked how does one actually execute this massive "tank". Yes, it's safe to assume other teams would be interested in Demar, but which ones and in return for what? Was Detroit pulled out of the air (fantasy?), or is it a legit example? It's no example at all, as Detroit's 2014 1st rounder is owned by Charlotte (top 8 protected), so they can't offer it. In fact, because of that deal with Charlotte, they can't currently offer a 1st round pick of their own until 2018, unless Charlotte gets it before 2016. So, "reasonable point", or fantasy pie in the sky stuff with zero possibility?

                  "Amir has a lot of market value considering his play this season. Teams should be queue-ing up for him. Add Fields or Bargnani and take advantage of the demand for Amir and get an expiring contract or picks or cheaper contract/s in return."

                  I have no idea why someone would be suggesting unloading Amir (sooooo many reasons not to!), but this is nothing but some wishy-washy fantasy thinking that some imaginary team is going to take on Fields or Bargs, because they want Amir so much that they're willing to take on one of those contracts and give up some imaginary contract (s) and picks that would be of some value to the Raps. Any "reasonable" example, or just wishy-washy fantasy GMing with no regard for realities of trading in the real NBA?

                  "-Same goes for Lowry(expiring contract)."

                  Again, fantasy shuffling of players, with no example of anything real, that makes sense.

                  "If necessary Ross."

                  See all of the above.

                  "more ways are possible which is why a GM is a GM."

                  Well, nothing offered so far is anything other than imaginary player/pick shuffling with imaginary teams (except for the impossible suggestion with Detroit). I'd suggest that a GM's job is a little more complicated than that. Shoot, even fantasy basketball GMing isn't that simple, and you don't have to be concerned with how the players you've got left think about this BS going on, to say nothing of what owners and fans that buy season tickets think about it.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    p00ka wrote: View Post

                    Well, nothing offered so far is anything other than imaginary player/pick shuffling with imaginary teams (except for the impossible suggestion with Detroit). I'd suggest that a GM's job is a little more complicated than that. Shoot, even fantasy basketball GMing isn't that simple, and you don't have to be concerned with how the players you've got left think about this BS going on, to say nothing of what owners and fans that buy season tickets think about it.
                    The condescending tone and dismissive stance toward posters is sure to win you friends and respect on a message board where people come to brainstorm their ideas. You're a true internet hero putting everyone in their place. Good for you, tiger. Now, get yourself a pat on the back and a cookie.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      p00ka wrote: View Post
                      Well, nothing offered so far is anything other than imaginary player/pick shuffling with imaginary teams (except for the impossible suggestion with Detroit). I'd suggest that a GM's job is a little more complicated than that. Shoot, even fantasy basketball GMing isn't that simple, and you don't have to be concerned with how the players you've got left think about this BS going on, to say nothing of what owners and fans that buy season tickets think about it.
                      The crux of his argument is that any player is tradeable, especially if the short-term desire is to blatantly tank. The concept is sound and doesn't require specific trade details to be justified as a viable option. It's certainly a far-fetched, unlikely and near impossible option, but a valid one nonetheless.

                      Get past the details of his suggested possible transactions (he did allude to the fact that it was up to the GM to be the GM, meaning he couldn't possibly know how the plan would actually get executed) and consider his plan more conceptually. I don't agree with him in the least, but it could happen (and has many time before).

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        p00ka wrote: View Post
                        Okay, let's go step by step.

                        "-If Demar was not signed to an extn., naturally a few teams would have been interested in him. For the sake of argument, let's say Detroit(money to spend) would have been the forerunner. Detroit offers FA Demar 4yr 40mil. and then does a S & T with Toronto for a 1st rounder. The same thing is done in the off-season the only difference being that it's not a S & T."

                        Remember, I asked how does one actually execute this massive "tank". Yes, it's safe to assume other teams would be interested in Demar, but which ones and in return for what? Was Detroit pulled out of the air (fantasy?), or is it a legit example? It's no example at all, as Detroit's 2014 1st rounder is owned by Charlotte (top 8 protected), so they can't offer it. In fact, because of that deal with Charlotte, they can't currently offer a 1st round pick of their own until 2018, unless Charlotte gets it before 2016. So, "reasonable point", or fantasy pie in the sky stuff with zero possibility?

                        "Amir has a lot of market value considering his play this season. Teams should be queue-ing up for him. Add Fields or Bargnani and take advantage of the demand for Amir and get an expiring contract or picks or cheaper contract/s in return."

                        I have no idea why someone would be suggesting unloading Amir (sooooo many reasons not to!), but this is nothing but some wishy-washy fantasy thinking that some imaginary team is going to take on Fields or Bargs, because they want Amir so much that they're willing to take on one of those contracts and give up some imaginary contract (s) and picks that would be of some value to the Raps. Any "reasonable" example, or just wishy-washy fantasy GMing with no regard for realities of trading in the real NBA?

                        "-Same goes for Lowry(expiring contract)."

                        Again, fantasy shuffling of players, with no example of anything real, that makes sense.

                        "If necessary Ross."

                        See all of the above.

                        "more ways are possible which is why a GM is a GM."

                        Well, nothing offered so far is anything other than imaginary player/pick shuffling with imaginary teams (except for the impossible suggestion with Detroit). I'd suggest that a GM's job is a little more complicated than that. Shoot, even fantasy basketball GMing isn't that simple, and you don't have to be concerned with how the players you've got left think about this BS going on, to say nothing of what owners and fans that buy season tickets think about it.
                        Good points.

                        And the bold is something I hadn't considered, I guess because tanking makes so much sense to me. But you're very right about that: there is literally no way that you could spin jettisoning so much talent to your fan base, even if it's the right thing to do. That kind of tanking is completely unprecedented.

                        Sigh. Really, the only conceivable way to tank next year is if Gay goes down early, and for a very long time.
                        "Stop eating your sushi."
                        "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                        "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                        - Jack Armstrong

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                          And the bold is something I hadn't considered, I guess because tanking makes so much sense to me. But you're very right about that: there is literally no way that you could spin jettisoning so much talent to your fan base, even if it's the right thing to do. That kind of tanking is completely unprecedented.
                          not unprecedented at all. Miami 07/08

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            heinz57 wrote: View Post
                            not unprecedented at all. Miami 07/08
                            Different circumstances. And the only major trade on that team, the one with Shaq, had more to do with him playing himself off of the team than with a tank job.

                            For a team to make several trades, each of which involves a significant reduction of the amount of present talent on the roster - no example of that comes to my mind.
                            "Stop eating your sushi."
                            "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                            "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                            - Jack Armstrong

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I just want to say right now, that you are all going to look like a bunch of haha dummy stupid pants when The Raptors make a few minor moves get a summer of health, training and growth and come back next year and make the playoffs
                              For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                                Different circumstances. And the only major trade on that team, the one with Shaq, had more to do with him playing himself off of the team than with a tank job.

                                For a team to make several trades, each of which involves a significant reduction of the amount of present talent on the roster - no example of that comes to my mind.
                                I'd argue that almost any trade deadline deal involves 'tanking' in some degree. It's almost always a matter of one team trading for 'help now', while the other team receives 'assets for later'.

                                It's tanking if you have no intention of fighting for the playoffs (even then I think that would be a very subjective discussion), but it's savvy strategic team-building once your team is out of contention for the playoffs.

                                I think a great example would be the Cavs trade a couple years ago, where they traded Mo Williams & Jamario Moon to the Clippers for Baron Davis & 1st round pick. The Cavs didn't make that trade to acquire Davis or to make themselves more competitive; they gave up the best player to get a 1st round pick. Is that 'tanking' or planning for the future? It's such a fine line...

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