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Thread: The "dilemma" facing the Raptors.

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Okay, let's go step by step.

    "-If Demar was not signed to an extn., naturally a few teams would have been interested in him. For the sake of argument, let's say Detroit(money to spend) would have been the forerunner. Detroit offers FA Demar 4yr 40mil. and then does a S & T with Toronto for a 1st rounder. The same thing is done in the off-season the only difference being that it's not a S & T."

    Remember, I asked how does one actually execute this massive "tank". Yes, it's safe to assume other teams would be interested in Demar, but which ones and in return for what? Was Detroit pulled out of the air (fantasy?), or is it a legit example? It's no example at all, as Detroit's 2014 1st rounder is owned by Charlotte (top 8 protected), so they can't offer it. In fact, because of that deal with Charlotte, they can't currently offer a 1st round pick of their own until 2018, unless Charlotte gets it before 2016. So, "reasonable point", or fantasy pie in the sky stuff with zero possibility?

    "Amir has a lot of market value considering his play this season. Teams should be queue-ing up for him. Add Fields or Bargnani and take advantage of the demand for Amir and get an expiring contract or picks or cheaper contract/s in return."

    I have no idea why someone would be suggesting unloading Amir (sooooo many reasons not to!), but this is nothing but some wishy-washy fantasy thinking that some imaginary team is going to take on Fields or Bargs, because they want Amir so much that they're willing to take on one of those contracts and give up some imaginary contract (s) and picks that would be of some value to the Raps. Any "reasonable" example, or just wishy-washy fantasy GMing with no regard for realities of trading in the real NBA?

    "-Same goes for Lowry(expiring contract)."

    Again, fantasy shuffling of players, with no example of anything real, that makes sense.

    "If necessary Ross."

    See all of the above.

    "more ways are possible which is why a GM is a GM."

    Well, nothing offered so far is anything other than imaginary player/pick shuffling with imaginary teams (except for the impossible suggestion with Detroit). I'd suggest that a GM's job is a little more complicated than that. Shoot, even fantasy basketball GMing isn't that simple, and you don't have to be concerned with how the players you've got left think about this BS going on, to say nothing of what owners and fans that buy season tickets think about it.
    Good points.

    And the bold is something I hadn't considered, I guess because tanking makes so much sense to me. But you're very right about that: there is literally no way that you could spin jettisoning so much talent to your fan base, even if it's the right thing to do. That kind of tanking is completely unprecedented.

    Sigh. Really, the only conceivable way to tank next year is if Gay goes down early, and for a very long time.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    And the bold is something I hadn't considered, I guess because tanking makes so much sense to me. But you're very right about that: there is literally no way that you could spin jettisoning so much talent to your fan base, even if it's the right thing to do. That kind of tanking is completely unprecedented.
    not unprecedented at all. Miami 07/08

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    not unprecedented at all. Miami 07/08
    Different circumstances. And the only major trade on that team, the one with Shaq, had more to do with him playing himself off of the team than with a tank job.

    For a team to make several trades, each of which involves a significant reduction of the amount of present talent on the roster - no example of that comes to my mind.

  4. #44
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    I just want to say right now, that you are all going to look like a bunch of haha dummy stupid pants when The Raptors make a few minor moves get a summer of health, training and growth and come back next year and make the playoffs

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  6. #45
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    Different circumstances. And the only major trade on that team, the one with Shaq, had more to do with him playing himself off of the team than with a tank job.

    For a team to make several trades, each of which involves a significant reduction of the amount of present talent on the roster - no example of that comes to my mind.
    I'd argue that almost any trade deadline deal involves 'tanking' in some degree. It's almost always a matter of one team trading for 'help now', while the other team receives 'assets for later'.

    It's tanking if you have no intention of fighting for the playoffs (even then I think that would be a very subjective discussion), but it's savvy strategic team-building once your team is out of contention for the playoffs.

    I think a great example would be the Cavs trade a couple years ago, where they traded Mo Williams & Jamario Moon to the Clippers for Baron Davis & 1st round pick. The Cavs didn't make that trade to acquire Davis or to make themselves more competitive; they gave up the best player to get a 1st round pick. Is that 'tanking' or planning for the future? It's such a fine line...

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  8. #46
    Raptors Republic Starter japetas's Avatar
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    Considering that The Raptors are going to compete for playoffs next year (and possibly won't get a lottery pick in 2014 draft), I think the best case scenario would be to continue playing our current (terrible) form and lose most of the games remaining (Home: Washington, Chicago, Brooklyn, Boston; Away: Minnesota, Milwaukee, Chicago, Atlanta) and hope to get lucky in the lottery. Despite the fact that this year draft considered as a very weak one, it's still better to get a high pick (draft a young player, or trade the pick) than get nothing On the other hand, from the Raptors view, even if we wouldn't win the top-3 pick in the lottery, it's still better option that OKC would get higher pick instead of Washington, Detroit or Philly
    Last edited by japetas; Wed Apr 3rd, 2013 at 05:01 PM.
    (Sorry for poor English )

  9. #47
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I just want to say right now, that you are all going to look like a bunch of haha dummy stupid pants when The Raptors make a few minor moves get a summer of health, training and growth and come back next year and make the playoffs
    Agreed. I don't even think it's too far beyond the realm of possibility for that to happen.

    1. Kleiza walks (or is amnestied)
    2. Bargnani is amnestied or traded for anything positive
    3. DeRozan is traded for Millsap (S&T)
    4. MLE is used to acquire a solid veteran backup PG
    5. Gray and Anderson come back


    Suddenly the lineup looks a lot better
    C: Valanciunas, Gray*
    PF: Millsap, Johnson
    SF: Gay, Anderson
    SG: Fields, Ross
    PG: Lowry, MLE
    * assuming Gray's time is limited, that's a pretty solid 9-man rotation (although I'd prefer to upgrade Anderson too, which could potentially be done via the draft if the Raps luck into a top-3 pick)

  10. #48
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I just want to say right now, that you are all going to look like a bunch of haha dummy stupid pants when The Raptors make a few minor moves get a summer of health, training and growth and come back next year and make the playoffs
    If one of those changes is a new head coach and GM, then I might be in agreement.

    BC needs to go. His stink of losing is stronger than poo.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  11. #49
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Agreed. I don't even think it's too far beyond the realm of possibility for that to happen.

    1. Kleiza walks (or is amnestied)
    2. Bargnani is amnestied or traded for anything positive
    3. DeRozan is traded for Millsap (S&T)
    4. MLE is used to acquire a solid veteran backup PG
    5. Gray and Anderson come back


    Suddenly the lineup looks a lot better
    C: Valanciunas, Gray*
    PF: Millsap, Johnson
    SF: Gay, Anderson
    SG: Fields, Ross
    PG: Lowry, MLE
    * assuming Gray's time is limited, that's a pretty solid 9-man rotation (although I'd prefer to upgrade Anderson too, which could potentially be done via the draft if the Raps luck into a top-3 pick)
    That lineup is useless with Casey and will see AA leading the charge in crunch time.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  12. #50
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That lineup is useless with Casey and will see AA leading the charge in crunch time.
    I'm on board now with the need for new management and coaching, regardless of the personnel decisions made in the offseason.

    As I mentioned in my post, my preference would be for Anderson to NOT return to the team next season - I just didn't want to leave a hole in the lineup and needed to be realistic from the financial angle. If the MLE were used on a backup PG, then I believe the Raps would only have the Vet Minimum and minimum/rookie contracts available to fill the spot (aside from a Bird-rights re-signing of Anderson). If the Raps luck into a top-3 pick, they could draft one of the wings to develop on the 2nd unit, further making DeRozan expendable for trade, to acquire an upgraded starting PF. Dominos...

  13. #51
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    The condescending tone and dismissive stance toward posters is sure to win you friends and respect on a message board where people come to brainstorm their ideas. You're a true internet hero putting everyone in their place. Good for you, tiger. Now, get yourself a pat on the back and a cookie.
    1. Perhaps you seek "friends" and "respect" through anonymous people on the internet, but it's not on my agenda. Challenging discussion is far more interesting and stimulating, but apparently sensitive personalities can't handle a little challenge to produce something of substance behind their "opinions", never mind a little smack talk. Awwww, I feel bad.
    2. Your sweeping statement about my condescending tone and dismissive stance is hilarious, considering your own "You're a true internet hero putting everyone in their place. Good for you, tiger. Now, get yourself a pat on the back and a cookie.", but perhaps you can point out my greater fault(s) in how I approached expressing my opinion, and how I may gain better favour with the kumbaya mob. What was so fn wrong with my paragraph you quoted, that you felt compelled to get up on your soapbox to gain "friends" and "respect"?

    But you know what's really funny? You, and others, spend tons of time on here playing a "true internet hero putting everyone (management, coaching, players, broadcasters in your case) in their place", as in ranting daily with an incredibly "condescending tone and dismissive stance toward" people who can't respond, and give "yourself a pat on the back and a cookie". All the while you're having hissy fits over someone challenging one of your campfire friends that's here and able to respond. And if the response is also challenged, you have an even bigger hissy fit, instead of providing some form of reasoned "brainstorm" that you're apparently into,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, beyond your daily whine & bitch about everything Raptors related.

    That rant out of the way, so what's your brainstorm of a tanking execution?
    Last edited by p00ka; Wed Apr 3rd, 2013 at 10:16 PM.

  14. #52
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    The crux of his argument is that any player is tradeable, especially if the short-term desire is to blatantly tank. The concept is sound and doesn't require specific trade details to be justified as a viable option. It's certainly a far-fetched, unlikely and near impossible option, but a valid one nonetheless.

    Get past the details of his suggested possible transactions (he did allude to the fact that it was up to the GM to be the GM, meaning he couldn't possibly know how the plan would actually get executed) and consider his plan more conceptually. I don't agree with him in the least, but it could happen (and has many time before).
    The bold statements are spot on, which is why I posed the simple question in my first response. The Raps are in no way in position to "tank" next year, without "giving away" young and talented assets, which if you asked the owners, and season ticket holders, is no plan at all.

  15. #53
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I'd argue that almost any trade deadline deal involves 'tanking' in some degree. It's almost always a matter of one team trading for 'help now', while the other team receives 'assets for later'.

    It's tanking if you have no intention of fighting for the playoffs (even then I think that would be a very subjective discussion), but it's savvy strategic team-building once your team is out of contention for the playoffs.

    I think a great example would be the Cavs trade a couple years ago, where they traded Mo Williams & Jamario Moon to the Clippers for Baron Davis & 1st round pick. The Cavs didn't make that trade to acquire Davis or to make themselves more competitive; they gave up the best player to get a 1st round pick. Is that 'tanking' or planning for the future? It's such a fine line...
    To further clarify what I mean by unprecedented: for us to really tank next year, that would involve multiple assets being traded in return for a obvious net-loss in present-roster talent. And it would have to happen over the summer, because the trade deadline would be too late. That's the scenario that has never happened before.

  16. #54
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Okay, let's go step by step.

    "-If Demar was not signed to an extn., naturally a few teams would have been interested in him. For the sake of argument, let's say Detroit(money to spend) would have been the forerunner. Detroit offers FA Demar 4yr 40mil. and then does a S & T with Toronto for a 1st rounder. The same thing is done in the off-season the only difference being that it's not a S & T."

    Remember, I asked how does one actually execute this massive "tank". Yes, it's safe to assume other teams would be interested in Demar, but which ones and in return for what? Was Detroit pulled out of the air (fantasy?), or is it a legit example? It's no example at all, as Detroit's 2014 1st rounder is owned by Charlotte (top 8 protected), so they can't offer it. In fact, because of that deal with Charlotte, they can't currently offer a 1st round pick of their own until 2018, unless Charlotte gets it before 2016. So, "reasonable point", or fantasy pie in the sky stuff with zero possibility?

    "Amir has a lot of market value considering his play this season. Teams should be queue-ing up for him. Add Fields or Bargnani and take advantage of the demand for Amir and get an expiring contract or picks or cheaper contract/s in return."

    I have no idea why someone would be suggesting unloading Amir (sooooo many reasons not to!), but this is nothing but some wishy-washy fantasy thinking that some imaginary team is going to take on Fields or Bargs, because they want Amir so much that they're willing to take on one of those contracts and give up some imaginary contract (s) and picks that would be of some value to the Raps. Any "reasonable" example, or just wishy-washy fantasy GMing with no regard for realities of trading in the real NBA?

    "-Same goes for Lowry(expiring contract)."

    Again, fantasy shuffling of players, with no example of anything real, that makes sense.

    "If necessary Ross."

    See all of the above.

    "more ways are possible which is why a GM is a GM."

    Well, nothing offered so far is anything other than imaginary player/pick shuffling with imaginary teams (except for the impossible suggestion with Detroit). I'd suggest that a GM's job is a little more complicated than that. Shoot, even fantasy basketball GMing isn't that simple, and you don't have to be concerned with how the players you've got left think about this BS going on, to say nothing of what owners and fans that buy season tickets think about it.
    The biggest mistake you're making is taking everything literally. The points that were stated in my answer to YOUR question were only EXAMPLES. A careful analysis to ensure their possibility is not necessary when they are EXAMPLES, EXAMPLES being the key word. In fact I took no more than 5 mts. to type the post. Even that(5 mts.) is on the high side. The purpose of quoting those examples was to make the POINT that clearing the roster via trades is possible. This would weaken the team so they can(hopefully, not definitely) tank. That is the POINT.

    Would BC or any GM do the exact same thing? Of course not. Should you or anybody use those ideas in fantasy BB? Of course not. At the same time, are the mentioned points(examples) unrealistic? Of course not.

    Please don't disect and anlyse every point. By doing so, you'll miss THE point. Not only on the forum but in any aspect of life. My advice for what it's worth.

    BTW I don't mean to disturb discussions.
    Last edited by Eric Akshinthala; Thu Apr 4th, 2013 at 01:52 AM.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  17. #55
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Do you think Casey should go given that Casey seems to be the source of push Lowry to be pass first point guard? I think Lowry should have complete freedom for the rest of the season and see how it plays out.
    Is Casey the reason, or is it BC? I guess it doesn't really matter. If it is Casey, I don't think he should go simply for trying to change Lowry's game. I just don't want Lowry's game to change too much. What was the point of acquiring him if we are not going to use him as an offensive threat? Another poster mentioned that Lowry is used to carry the ball up the floor, pass it to a wing, and park behind the line waiting for a 3pt shot (I'm sorry for not quoting). This is not efficient use of his skills, and I doubt Casey himself would argue otherwise. Now I do not agree that he should have complete freedom for the rest of the season as I fear the overall effect would be similar to what we saw at the beginning of the season, and I do not support tanking. But I do want to see Lowry in a more offensive role on this team. I'd like him to be one of the main offensive options for the starting line. However, this is difficult given the lineup we have with Gay and DeRozan requiring a lot of touches, and the need to develop JV in the post. This is why I offer the suggestion of moving DeRozan and inserting a more defensive oriented SG that can shoot the distance shot. Leave the penetration to GAy and Lowry, the inside play to JV, and have Amir and your SG doing all the little things. I sincerely believe that 3 go-to type guys is sufficient for any offensive lineup, and I do believe that JV, RG, and KL can be those guys.

    Another option I've been thinking about is moving Gay and Lowry, but keeping DeRozan. If we moved BArgs, Gay and Lowry we would have substantial cap room for free agency. We would also have a decent core in JV, AJ, DD and TR from which to build around. Of course, this isn't very realistic with BC heading the show, and would probably set us back an extra year or two unless we could land some really good FA's. Furthermore, I believe having Gay would be better for luring FA's than DeMar.

    And again, another option is to move Bargs and Ross, acquiring a SG like I mentioned before, and have DeRozan come off the bench. Add a Carl Landry type player as well, and you can have a decent two man offensive punch coming off the bench. Of course, no one wants a $9.5 mil guy coming off the bench, but if he was for it, and it made the team better than why not?

    I guess the theme here is that I have little confidence in the ability of Gay, DeRozan and Lowry to integrate their offensive talents effectively, while still allowing JV to develop and be an important part of the offense. There have been glimpses of the possibility throughout the season, but they were few and far between, and involved impressive ball movement and impressive off the ball movement of the players. For whatever reason, we do not do that consistently, but if we did I'd have little issue with this team, and would simply ask that we beef up the bench a little.

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