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Casey: JV would be coming out of games if Raps were in Playoff Race

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  • #16
    Like he says you cant win and just like Toronto fans to get the torches and pitchforks to run a coach out of town there has to be some goddam continuity. Firing coaches as much as this organization does is another reason why we suck system change after system change.

    relax people the season was crummy wait for the next when the Raptors hopefully have 9 guys to play instead of 6.... Jesus H Christ the panic button doesnt work here anymore its broken from over usage...

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    • #17
      slaw wrote: View Post
      He's going further here than just saying 'rookies make mistakes'. Of course rookies make mistakes. Of course JV makes mistakes. But he specifically hung the Detroit loss on Ross and JV and is expressly throwing his rooks under the bus. I'm sorry but that's garbage. JV and Ross didn't cost them that Detroit game. And they haven't cost them the other 46 losses either.

      For him to imply that they are sacrificing wins by playing JV is both nonsense and poor form.
      Seriously, I do think JV might have been the best player on the floor for both teams for those 2 games.

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      • #18
        white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        yeah, Jerry Sloan taught guys the right way. He didn't trow guys like Williams or Millsap out on the floor to learn from their mistakes. He benched them for a season or two to make sure they learned....oh wait....
        And Doc, clearly had to sit Rajon Rondo a lot to teach him a thing or two because he lacked skills and was a bit hotheaded...oh wait....

        Good coaches use talent. JV is the most talented player on the team(I said arguably before, but it really isn't), even if he's 2-3 seasons away (just like any rookie) from hitting his stride. A good coach would maximize such an asset....I can't under any circumstance claim that Casey has appeared to do that.
        ....thats a lie in the the players you mentioned got the same treatment Ross and JV are getting rookies play limited every single coach does this Even if they are playing rather well a coach will go back to his vets.. relax JV isnt the most talented player on this team stop bigging him up hes good can be great will be great but dont talk about him like hes shaw in his prime dropping 30 a night down low....

        Jerry sloan was probably the most adamant coach on not playing rookies.... If you made a mistake you sat immediately or more often than not didnt play at all.

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        • #19
          What about mistake - being BAD COACH? Admit it Casey, you have no balls.
          Official Pope of the Raptors sponsored by MLSE.

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          • #20
            Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
            ....thats a lie in the the players you mentioned got the same treatment Ross and JV are getting rookies play limited every single coach does this Even if they are playing rather well a coach will go back to his vets.. relax JV isnt the most talented player on this team stop bigging him up hes good can be great will be great but dont talk about him like hes shaw in his prime dropping 30 a night down low....

            Jerry sloan was probably the most adamant coach on not playing rookies.... If you made a mistake you sat immediately or more often than not didnt play at all.
            You didn't get my point. It's not about minutes, it's about INCORPORATING THE MOST TALENTED PIECES ON YOUR TEAM INTO YOUR SYSTEM AND UTILIZING THEM FOR THE BENEFIT OF WINS, REGARDLESS OF IF THEY'RE ROOKIES. Casey has made every effort to keep his rookies out of his "core" for the season, by which I mean he does not want to have any part of relying on his rookies to help the team win. He doesn't seem to believe it's possible. That's a stupid coach. It's not like we're asking him to play Fab Melo 30 mpg, or Hoffa Araujo for an old Raps example.

            Jonas is very obviously this team's best C (true C at least, not trying to disrespect Amir) and has been all season, but Casey has made every effort to find a way for the team to be successful WITHOUT him on the court, rather than trying to find a way to make them successful WITH him on the court. This is ridiculous....

            Oh, and so no, I wasn't lying and I don't appreciate that shit. Those players were nurtured by their coaches/organizations. Millsap only didn't get more minutes because Boozer was on the team. Rondo was played as much as Doc could, even if it was only 23.5 mpg. He obviously was coached right because by the next year he was starting for a championship team. Ed Davis didn't get Bargs' starting job until Casey had no choice. Seriously, I can't imagine Casey playing a PG with a bad attitude and no shot for that long.

            *And I had less issue with his use of JV early in the season. But post-injury, he's been a different player. Stronger. His bball IQ going up seemingly every game. His D has actually been improving quite a bit too, with his man D not being too bad anyway.
            Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Apr 3, 2013, 07:24 PM.

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            • #21
              slaw wrote: View Post
              http://www.nba.com/raptors/video/originals/index.html

              So, go watch the morning scrum with Casey. Skip ahead to 3:00 minute mark for the good stuff.

              Among the gems:

              - JV wouldn't be playing as much if they were playing for the playoffs. (More Aaron Gray?)
              - Throws JV and Ross under the bus as a reason for losing. (Their fault Gay and Derozan can't shoot)

              I don't have as big a problem with Casey as many on the boards but this is just laughable. JV has been one of the few bright spots on the team and he's the issue? Terrence Ross' playing time is hurting the team? Dude barely plays. GTFO with this garbage.
              Another reason why Casey should be fired.
              Mamba Mentality

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              • #22
                What does a coach really do?

                1. Create a defensive scheme
                2. Build an offensive philosophy
                3. Call plays out of game stoppages
                4. Select the best possible players to play depending on scenario.

                Let's unpack these:

                #1 -- I give Casey a solid B on Defense. His above avg knowledge of defense is why I hoped he survived last year.
                #2 -- F. When this team wins the ball swing side to side, but Rap sets consistently run through high usage ball stoppers
                #3 -- C. Could be worse has called solid end of game plays consistently. However, some of his calls after mid game timeouts...
                #4 -- U. Back where I'm from a U was a grade lower than an F. Essentially if you got an F you would get a chance to retake a test. If you got a U you might be asked to transfer to a more appropriate school for your intelligence.

                Casey's obsession with playing vets who have a negative impact on the game, subbing all of his starters in first quarters, going 10-12 players deep like its going out of style when "good" teams go 9 deep at most is deplorable.

                His interview may be smokescreen, something Colangelo suggested. But at the end of the day, if he made some small sensible moves early in the season and the team was closer to a playoff spot his job security wouldn't be so tightly tied to BC's

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                • #23
                  slaw wrote: View Post
                  http://www.nba.com/raptors/video/originals/index.html

                  So, go watch the morning scrum with Casey. Skip ahead to 3:00 minute mark for the good stuff.

                  Among the gems:

                  - JV wouldn't be playing as much if they were playing for the playoffs. (More Aaron Gray?)
                  - Throws JV and Ross under the bus as a reason for losing. (Their fault Gay and Derozan can't shoot)

                  I don't have as big a problem with Casey as many on the boards but this is just laughable. JV has been one of the few bright spots on the team and he's the issue? Terrence Ross' playing time is hurting the team? Dude barely plays. GTFO with this garbage.
                  Since you take pot shots at someone that can't respond, can I take a shot or two at someone that can, or would that be an unfriendly response? I'll tell you what I find "laughable"?: Your twisted interpretations of what the coach is saying. To preempt the friendly mob a little, if you don't already understand how it's a twisted version, I wouldn't be able to explain. IMO, the best part of what he said in the scrum was chuckling about not listening to your kind of "white noise".

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                  • #24
                    p00ka wrote: View Post
                    Since you take pot shots at someone that can't respond, can I take a shot or two at someone that can, or would that be an unfriendly response? I'll tell you what I find "laughable"?: Your twisted interpretations of what the coach is saying. To preempt the friendly mob a little, if you don't already understand how it's a twisted version, I wouldn't be able to explain. IMO, the best part of what he said in the scrum was chuckling about not listening to your kind of "white noise".
                    I'm with pooka here. Everyone needs to watch the video and not just go by OP synopsis. Casey only says that in certain situations he would sit JV when he isn't sitting him now. Casey goes on to say how he needs to be playing the rookies now to develop them for the future so he's letting them play through more mistakes than he normally would. Just watch the video, it all sounds infinitely more reasonable coming from Casey's mouth.

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                    • #25
                      Primer wrote: View Post
                      I'm with pooka here. Everyone needs to watch the video and not just go by OP synopsis. Casey only says that in certain situations he would sit JV when he isn't sitting him now. Casey goes on to say how he needs to be playing the rookies now to develop them for the future so he's letting them play through more mistakes than he normally would. Just watch the video, it all sounds infinitely more reasonable coming from Casey's mouth.
                      My concern is that I assume those times he wouldn't normally be playing JV is in the 4th quarter of a tight game, similar to his usage during most of the season. I understand the instinct to shy away from throwing rookies to the fire, so to speak, but it makes absolutely no sense to me when the rookie in question has played a game where he's the best player on the court. Also, how is a young player going to gain experience playing in those types of situations, if he's never given the chance? I don't get what stopped DC from playing JV in those moments, keeping him on a short leash - he just never game him a chance to begin with.

                      As for more general usage, I am fully on board with rookies getting a quick hook anytime in a game when they make a mistake - ie: one from lack of effort, or laziness running a play, etc... However, I don't understand the concept of keeping the rookie on the bench for the remainder of the game, which is exactly what DC did with both JV & Ross many times earlier in the year. I think it makes more sense to yank the player, talk to them on the bench and make them understand what they did wrong, while reviewing the change that needs to be made to avoid making the same mistake. Then the player needs to get back into the same game, against the same opponents, running the same gameplan, to prove that they are able to learn from their mistakes and take the benching/coaching to heart. That's what I found to be lacking from DC all season - not giving his rookies a chance to prove themselves after being called out for an initial mistake.

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                      • #26
                        BadDinosaur wrote: View Post
                        I thought I would give Casey a benefit of a doubt this season with all the drama surrounding Bargs, Davis and Jose being traded for Gay, the fact we had to develop 2 rookies (or 3...), some of the injuries etc., etc. ... but that's enough for me. I think he needs to get lost. I thought it would be a good idea bringing in an assistant coach that is good on offense and that it would make up for Casey's deficiencies on that end, but I can now see beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Casey is just plain too stupid for a job as the head coach of an NBA team.

                        He says, that JV would probably play less minutes, if we were still in the race for the playoffs, because JV sometimes commits mistakes on D? So Casey, let me ask you... was Bargs or Grey better on D, when we were still in the race? How do you explain the messed up rotations, playing the entire bench for full quarters in close games, playing scrubs over starters for extended minutes while blowing leads and not calling timeouts or bringing back in the starters on time? All of this was happening when we still were in the race early in the season, middle of the season and right before we lost all hopes of making the playoffs!

                        I doubt Casey will change, EVER. He will keep on working with questionable rotations, badly timed timeouts, he'll never have any system for a solid offense, he'll never be a able to draw up one single offensive play for out-of-a-timeout situation and he simply will never be head coach material. He's probably best suited at being a defensive assistant coach for a solid team. He has to go, since he wouldn't agree to be downgraded and stay here as an assistant.
                        Casey has been disappointing. He was supposed to get this crew to overachieve. Smitch did it in 06/07.

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                        • #27
                          For what it's worth, the after game NBA TV Canada interviewed DeMar DeRozan and one of the questions they asked him was what he thought of JV's development. DeRozan chuckled and said JV was still learning and makes a ton of mistakes on the defensive end, but that at least he's giving it 120% effort every night.
                          your pal,
                          ebrian

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                          • #28
                            ebrian wrote: View Post
                            For what it's worth, the after game NBA TV Canada interviewed DeMar DeRozan and one of the questions they asked him was what he thought of JV's development. DeRozan chuckled and said JV was still learning and makes a ton of mistakes on the defensive end, but that at least he's giving it 120% effort every night.
                            I don't know what that's worth. If anything it just contributes to how mystified I am by Casey's handling of JV. Demar is often times the worst defensive player on the court for the Raps, especially when it comes to team D. He is allowed to make countless mistakes without getting a yank.

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                            • #29
                              I've been trying to watch the video for the last 35 minutes so that I can make up my own opinion. Unfortunately, internet in Rwanda has gone from bad to 99% non-existent. The fact that I can even read the forum posts is something that hasn't been possible the last 3 days.

                              So I'll stay away from trying to interpret what was in the video, and stick to my own (limited) opinion. JV has been underplayed for a significant amount of the year. Anyone can defend what Casey said in the interview, or what he was implying. I would have liked Ross to get more minutes, but he has not played well to the point where the minutes may not have been helping him (or the team).

                              With Jonas it is a completely different situation, because often the guy you'd be replacing him with, wouldn't do as good as job as he would, which smacks of "cutting off your nose to spite your face".


                              Defend Casey all you want (I'm still in the bring him back for another season, camp). BUT I seriously would like to know if there's anyone who actually believes that Casey has given JV the right amount of minutes. Because, no matter what your interpretation is of what he said in the interview are, it would be VERY difficult (and I would appreciate it if someone actually tried) to make a statistical argument on Jonas' productivity and it's correlation with raptors wins that says the raptors would do better if he played less. I don't care what the current philosophy is on how you play rookies. And just because the spurs do it, (whether or not they actually do) doesn't mean we should. If the spurs are doing something that directly leads to wins, then absolutely, you want to try that out to see if you can duplicate that success. BUT if the team is more likely to win if you play said player, and if your goal is to win, that logic dictates that you SHOULD play that said player.

                              There's a reason why Kobe has played and average of 47 minutes in the last two games (not total, AVERAGE you mind should be blown right now). I'm not saying that Casey should play JV 48 minutes every game for the remainder of the season. BUT I actually kind of want him too, and I do think that the upside of those extended minutes of doing that FAR out way the negatives.


                              My "eye test" says that Casey limits JV's playing time NOT because he's tired, or making mistakes, but because he (or upper mgmt) has decided that JV is only going to get X amount of minutes for that game. This to me is flawed coaching, because it reinforces that the coaching staff are not willing/able to adapt players minutes "in game" based on their performance, or the other teams performance/line ups.

                              I just don't see how you can argue, using stats, or the eye test, that there are cases where Casey has played JV too much, but I think there's lots of cases where you can argue using stats and the eye test, that Casey hasn't played him enough.

                              This is probably why people are inclined to implicate casey's intent as being anti-rookie, whether he is or is not.
                              "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                              "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                              "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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                              • #30
                                If you don't like Casey or have no confidence in his coaching ability that is fine. But if this interview is what tips the scales, so to speak, of your opinion of him, than that's just sad. Some of you are totally over-reacting to his comments. I'm not sure how I feel about Casey one way or the other and this interview certainly isn't going to influence my opinion.

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