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Thread: Casey: JV would be coming out of games if Raps were in Playoff Race

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    http://www.nba.com/raptors/video/originals/index.html

    So, go watch the morning scrum with Casey. Skip ahead to 3:00 minute mark for the good stuff.

    Among the gems:

    - JV wouldn't be playing as much if they were playing for the playoffs. (More Aaron Gray?)
    - Throws JV and Ross under the bus as a reason for losing. (Their fault Gay and Derozan can't shoot)

    I don't have as big a problem with Casey as many on the boards but this is just laughable. JV has been one of the few bright spots on the team and he's the issue? Terrence Ross' playing time is hurting the team? Dude barely plays. GTFO with this garbage.
    Another reason why Casey should be fired.
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    What does a coach really do?

    1. Create a defensive scheme
    2. Build an offensive philosophy
    3. Call plays out of game stoppages
    4. Select the best possible players to play depending on scenario.

    Let's unpack these:

    #1 -- I give Casey a solid B on Defense. His above avg knowledge of defense is why I hoped he survived last year.
    #2 -- F. When this team wins the ball swing side to side, but Rap sets consistently run through high usage ball stoppers
    #3 -- C. Could be worse has called solid end of game plays consistently. However, some of his calls after mid game timeouts...
    #4 -- U. Back where I'm from a U was a grade lower than an F. Essentially if you got an F you would get a chance to retake a test. If you got a U you might be asked to transfer to a more appropriate school for your intelligence.

    Casey's obsession with playing vets who have a negative impact on the game, subbing all of his starters in first quarters, going 10-12 players deep like its going out of style when "good" teams go 9 deep at most is deplorable.

    His interview may be smokescreen, something Colangelo suggested. But at the end of the day, if he made some small sensible moves early in the season and the team was closer to a playoff spot his job security wouldn't be so tightly tied to BC's

  3. #23
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    http://www.nba.com/raptors/video/originals/index.html

    So, go watch the morning scrum with Casey. Skip ahead to 3:00 minute mark for the good stuff.

    Among the gems:

    - JV wouldn't be playing as much if they were playing for the playoffs. (More Aaron Gray?)
    - Throws JV and Ross under the bus as a reason for losing. (Their fault Gay and Derozan can't shoot)

    I don't have as big a problem with Casey as many on the boards but this is just laughable. JV has been one of the few bright spots on the team and he's the issue? Terrence Ross' playing time is hurting the team? Dude barely plays. GTFO with this garbage.
    Since you take pot shots at someone that can't respond, can I take a shot or two at someone that can, or would that be an unfriendly response? I'll tell you what I find "laughable"?: Your twisted interpretations of what the coach is saying. To preempt the friendly mob a little, if you don't already understand how it's a twisted version, I wouldn't be able to explain. IMO, the best part of what he said in the scrum was chuckling about not listening to your kind of "white noise".

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Since you take pot shots at someone that can't respond, can I take a shot or two at someone that can, or would that be an unfriendly response? I'll tell you what I find "laughable"?: Your twisted interpretations of what the coach is saying. To preempt the friendly mob a little, if you don't already understand how it's a twisted version, I wouldn't be able to explain. IMO, the best part of what he said in the scrum was chuckling about not listening to your kind of "white noise".
    I'm with pooka here. Everyone needs to watch the video and not just go by OP synopsis. Casey only says that in certain situations he would sit JV when he isn't sitting him now. Casey goes on to say how he needs to be playing the rookies now to develop them for the future so he's letting them play through more mistakes than he normally would. Just watch the video, it all sounds infinitely more reasonable coming from Casey's mouth.

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  6. #25
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    I'm with pooka here. Everyone needs to watch the video and not just go by OP synopsis. Casey only says that in certain situations he would sit JV when he isn't sitting him now. Casey goes on to say how he needs to be playing the rookies now to develop them for the future so he's letting them play through more mistakes than he normally would. Just watch the video, it all sounds infinitely more reasonable coming from Casey's mouth.
    My concern is that I assume those times he wouldn't normally be playing JV is in the 4th quarter of a tight game, similar to his usage during most of the season. I understand the instinct to shy away from throwing rookies to the fire, so to speak, but it makes absolutely no sense to me when the rookie in question has played a game where he's the best player on the court. Also, how is a young player going to gain experience playing in those types of situations, if he's never given the chance? I don't get what stopped DC from playing JV in those moments, keeping him on a short leash - he just never game him a chance to begin with.

    As for more general usage, I am fully on board with rookies getting a quick hook anytime in a game when they make a mistake - ie: one from lack of effort, or laziness running a play, etc... However, I don't understand the concept of keeping the rookie on the bench for the remainder of the game, which is exactly what DC did with both JV & Ross many times earlier in the year. I think it makes more sense to yank the player, talk to them on the bench and make them understand what they did wrong, while reviewing the change that needs to be made to avoid making the same mistake. Then the player needs to get back into the same game, against the same opponents, running the same gameplan, to prove that they are able to learn from their mistakes and take the benching/coaching to heart. That's what I found to be lacking from DC all season - not giving his rookies a chance to prove themselves after being called out for an initial mistake.

  7. #26
    Raptors Republic Starter Pele's Avatar
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    Quote BadDinosaur wrote: View Post
    I thought I would give Casey a benefit of a doubt this season with all the drama surrounding Bargs, Davis and Jose being traded for Gay, the fact we had to develop 2 rookies (or 3...), some of the injuries etc., etc. ... but that's enough for me. I think he needs to get lost. I thought it would be a good idea bringing in an assistant coach that is good on offense and that it would make up for Casey's deficiencies on that end, but I can now see beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Casey is just plain too stupid for a job as the head coach of an NBA team.

    He says, that JV would probably play less minutes, if we were still in the race for the playoffs, because JV sometimes commits mistakes on D? So Casey, let me ask you... was Bargs or Grey better on D, when we were still in the race? How do you explain the messed up rotations, playing the entire bench for full quarters in close games, playing scrubs over starters for extended minutes while blowing leads and not calling timeouts or bringing back in the starters on time? All of this was happening when we still were in the race early in the season, middle of the season and right before we lost all hopes of making the playoffs!

    I doubt Casey will change, EVER. He will keep on working with questionable rotations, badly timed timeouts, he'll never have any system for a solid offense, he'll never be a able to draw up one single offensive play for out-of-a-timeout situation and he simply will never be head coach material. He's probably best suited at being a defensive assistant coach for a solid team. He has to go, since he wouldn't agree to be downgraded and stay here as an assistant.
    Casey has been disappointing. He was supposed to get this crew to overachieve. Smitch did it in 06/07.

  8. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, the after game NBA TV Canada interviewed DeMar DeRozan and one of the questions they asked him was what he thought of JV's development. DeRozan chuckled and said JV was still learning and makes a ton of mistakes on the defensive end, but that at least he's giving it 120% effort every night.
    your pal,
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  9. #28
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    For what it's worth, the after game NBA TV Canada interviewed DeMar DeRozan and one of the questions they asked him was what he thought of JV's development. DeRozan chuckled and said JV was still learning and makes a ton of mistakes on the defensive end, but that at least he's giving it 120% effort every night.
    I don't know what that's worth. If anything it just contributes to how mystified I am by Casey's handling of JV. Demar is often times the worst defensive player on the court for the Raps, especially when it comes to team D. He is allowed to make countless mistakes without getting a yank.

  10. #29
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    I've been trying to watch the video for the last 35 minutes so that I can make up my own opinion. Unfortunately, internet in Rwanda has gone from bad to 99% non-existent. The fact that I can even read the forum posts is something that hasn't been possible the last 3 days.

    So I'll stay away from trying to interpret what was in the video, and stick to my own (limited) opinion. JV has been underplayed for a significant amount of the year. Anyone can defend what Casey said in the interview, or what he was implying. I would have liked Ross to get more minutes, but he has not played well to the point where the minutes may not have been helping him (or the team).

    With Jonas it is a completely different situation, because often the guy you'd be replacing him with, wouldn't do as good as job as he would, which smacks of "cutting off your nose to spite your face".


    Defend Casey all you want (I'm still in the bring him back for another season, camp). BUT I seriously would like to know if there's anyone who actually believes that Casey has given JV the right amount of minutes. Because, no matter what your interpretation is of what he said in the interview are, it would be VERY difficult (and I would appreciate it if someone actually tried) to make a statistical argument on Jonas' productivity and it's correlation with raptors wins that says the raptors would do better if he played less. I don't care what the current philosophy is on how you play rookies. And just because the spurs do it, (whether or not they actually do) doesn't mean we should. If the spurs are doing something that directly leads to wins, then absolutely, you want to try that out to see if you can duplicate that success. BUT if the team is more likely to win if you play said player, and if your goal is to win, that logic dictates that you SHOULD play that said player.

    There's a reason why Kobe has played and average of 47 minutes in the last two games (not total, AVERAGE you mind should be blown right now). I'm not saying that Casey should play JV 48 minutes every game for the remainder of the season. BUT I actually kind of want him too, and I do think that the upside of those extended minutes of doing that FAR out way the negatives.


    My "eye test" says that Casey limits JV's playing time NOT because he's tired, or making mistakes, but because he (or upper mgmt) has decided that JV is only going to get X amount of minutes for that game. This to me is flawed coaching, because it reinforces that the coaching staff are not willing/able to adapt players minutes "in game" based on their performance, or the other teams performance/line ups.

    I just don't see how you can argue, using stats, or the eye test, that there are cases where Casey has played JV too much, but I think there's lots of cases where you can argue using stats and the eye test, that Casey hasn't played him enough.

    This is probably why people are inclined to implicate casey's intent as being anti-rookie, whether he is or is not.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  11. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    If you don't like Casey or have no confidence in his coaching ability that is fine. But if this interview is what tips the scales, so to speak, of your opinion of him, than that's just sad. Some of you are totally over-reacting to his comments. I'm not sure how I feel about Casey one way or the other and this interview certainly isn't going to influence my opinion.

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    This thread is stupid when you have both jv and tross talking about how they appreciate more time because they are learning and making mistakes

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I think some of you guys just need to take a chill pill. Currently there are 93 big men in the NBA (I filtered for anyone 6'11" or taller). Only 17 of them averaged more minutes per game than Valanciunas (23.5 mpg) in their rookie season. Here are a few of the notable guys who averaged less minutes in their rookie season:

    Chris Kaman (22.5)
    LaMarcus Aldridge (22.1)
    Joakim Noah (20.7)
    Brendan Haywood (20.4)
    Dirk Nowitzki (20.4)
    Tyson Chandler (19.6)
    Javale McGee (15.2)
    Jamaal Magloire (14.8)
    DeAndre Jordan (14.5)
    Larry Sanders (14.5)
    Roy Hibbert (14.4)
    Tiago Splitter (12.3)
    Omer Asik (12.1)
    Jermaine O'Neal (10.2)
    Andrew Bynum (7.3)
    Marcin Gortat (6.2)
    Samuel Dalembert (5.2)
    your pal,
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  15. #33
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Casey is part of the problem with this team and I would be happy with a new coach, but he does kind of have a point with regards to JV.

    JV is pretty awesome and I love having him on the team, however from a production point of view he's 6th worst on the team (as of March 21 and 82games.com). Giving him more minutes is great for his development and I encourage that for a lost season, but if they were in the playoff hunt playing JV could theoretically cost them wins especially if he is a negative in terms of production on the team. The bigger problem is that Gray is actually worse than him, so if JV was not playing who would Casey give the minutes too? If it was Gray then he is a really bad coach, but if Amir played center, and Gay PF then it could actually be more beneficial to the team at least this season, and that tandem might work better against a team like Miami who plays small ball anyway.

    With regards to JV I am really impressed. Looking at his stats he is actually doing better than Noah was in his first year. He's doing better across all the major stats except for his defensive rating which is still pretty close.

    If JV ends up having Noah's career then we have locked in the hardest position to fill on a roster, and that is something we can all celebrate.

  16. #34
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Casey is part of the problem with this team and I would be happy with a new coach, but he does kind of have a point with regards to JV.

    JV is pretty awesome and I love having him on the team, however from a production point of view he's 6th worst on the team (as of March 21 and 82games.com). Giving him more minutes is great for his development and I encourage that for a lost season, but if they were in the playoff hunt playing JV could theoretically cost them wins especially if he is a negative in terms of production on the team. The bigger problem is that Gray is actually worse than him, so if JV was not playing who would Casey give the minutes too? If it was Gray then he is a really bad coach, but if Amir played center, and Gay PF then it could actually be more beneficial to the team at least this season, and that tandem might work better against a team like Miami who plays small ball anyway.

    With regards to JV I am really impressed. Looking at his stats he is actually doing better than Noah was in his first year. He's doing better across all the major stats except for his defensive rating which is still pretty close.

    If JV ends up having Noah's career then we have locked in the hardest position to fill on a roster, and that is something we can all celebrate.
    And herein lies the core issue I and so many others have. Obviously, Amir takes minutes away from him at C....but Amir also plays PF. There were clearly times when Casey was making bad choices, because really, the options he had were all far worse than getting JV more minutes.

    It's nice to keep making anti-rookie arguments, but at some point you have to step back and evaluate how TALENT is being used.

  17. #35
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    You know its not even so much of an issue that he loves to play small ball..Casey plays small ball cause he has to, since Davis left and Bargnani is down and out only JV and Amir are bigs in the rotation. Have to use what you have.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    What a bunch of horse shit....Man, I also was one to give Casey some benefit of the doubt, but this is atrocious.

    Well, JV is the future of this team. The fact that Casey said such things is despicable. I'll take the Detroit games as examples, because Amir struggles a bit with the Pistons defensively since Monroe and Drummond are both big. JV was arguably the best big man on the court out of all 4 guys in both games, including defensively. So is he saying if we were in a playoff race he would've sat JV in those games? You know, like he sat him out against Dwight Howard despite playing him better than anyone on the team in LA. Or the way he thought a good defensive frontcourt was Bargs and Fields....multiple times...

    Fuck Casey. I've had enough. I'm going back to the idea of a team of monkeys making decisions instead of him...They could throw darts at a clipboard? Roll dice with playcalls on them? I don't care....
    I love when he said, "if we're playing for the playoff's, he'd be coming out" who is he going to put in? Gray? hehehe.

    Im just thinking of it as he's downplaying JV and Ross' capabilites so no team would include them in a package for Bargnani. hehehe.

  19. #37
    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    What does a coach really do?

    1. Create a defensive scheme
    2. Build an offensive philosophy
    3. Call plays out of game stoppages
    4. Select the best possible players to play depending on scenario.

    Let's unpack these:

    #1 -- I give Casey a solid B on Defense. His above avg knowledge of defense is why I hoped he survived last year.
    #2 -- F. When this team wins the ball swing side to side, but Rap sets consistently run through high usage ball stoppers
    #3 -- C. Could be worse has called solid end of game plays consistently. However, some of his calls after mid game timeouts...
    #4 -- U. Back where I'm from a U was a grade lower than an F. Essentially if you got an F you would get a chance to retake a test. If you got a U you might be asked to transfer to a more appropriate school for your intelligence.

    Casey's obsession with playing vets who have a negative impact on the game, subbing all of his starters in first quarters, going 10-12 players deep like its going out of style when "good" teams go 9 deep at most is deplorable.

    His interview may be smokescreen, something Colangelo suggested. But at the end of the day, if he made some small sensible moves early in the season and the team was closer to a playoff spot his job security wouldn't be so tightly tied to BC's
    While I like your analysis, if you believe this is all coaches do, you're sadly mistaken. I don't doubt Casey works hard but he has very limited ability to adapt. He is stubborn and that may work on the defensive side of the ball but it hurts in almost every other element of the game. While I don't think he currently possesses the tools for being a head coach, to say that there are only 4 pieces that make up head coaches is naive.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

  20. #38
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    JV has a tendency to overcommit when playing help defense, and leaving the paint wide open. I would like to think casey wants to limit his minutes as a teaching point, rather than benching a bad player.

  21. #39
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    JV has a tendency to overcommit when playing help defense, and leaving the paint wide open. I would like to think casey wants to limit his minutes as a teaching point, rather than benching a bad player.
    This is true. It is JV's biggest defensive issue most nights.

    It is also sadly true that the team defends the roll very badly. A lot of times nobody rotates to disrupt the rolling big. It's especially bad when this help is supposed to come from one of the wings. I remember being constantly annoyed by it earlier in teh season. IT's not quite as bad anymore, though still not consistent.

  22. #40
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    For what it's worth, the after game NBA TV Canada interviewed DeMar DeRozan and one of the questions they asked him was what he thought of JV's development. DeRozan chuckled and said JV was still learning and makes a ton of mistakes on the defensive end, but that at least he's giving it 120% effort every night.
    So weird that Casey and DeMar, both professionals in the NBA seem to think JV makes a lot of mistakes but most everone here beleive that JV is currently the best player to have on the floor at all times. What they heck could they know that we don't?

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