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Thread: HoopsWorld: Raps Still Hoping to Trade Bargnani/BC Fluff

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default HoopsWorld: Raps Still Hoping to Trade Bargnani/BC Fluff

    Written by Bill Ingram and not regular Raptor scribe Stephen Brotherston. Worth the click. I only too Colangelo's quotes. Ingram seems pretty optimistic on the Raptors - that or it was a condition of the interview... "Spin me positively, Billy!"

    “We really struggled out of the gate, going 4-19,” Raptors GM Bryan Colangelo explains to HOOPSWORLD. “You can probably pinpoint many reasons for the bad start…schedule, injuries, inexperience, a few league-acknowledged bad calls, but lack of execution was a primary cause. Since then we have gone 28-29, which is a pretty dramatic swing, but the hole we dug early was a little too deep. You add to that a significant in-season trade that completely changed the dynamic of the team and you are practically asking for inconsistency. A lot was thrown at this team and this staff this year, but they never stopped fighting.”
    “Even better than expected,” says Colangelo of his rookie. “He began the year coming off a two-and-a-half-year stretch without even a day off. He was likely a little overwhelmed at first with his new surroundings, unfamiliar basketball terminology and ideals, but his injury turned out to be a blessing in disguise. He was able to take a breath and see things from a different perspective. He came back more poised, more deliberate. The game really seemed to slow down for him and he seems much more comfortable on the court. His Rookie of the Month award for March speaks to his rapid development and progress as the year has passed. He’s a wonderful young man, a tremendously hard worker and a budding future star. If I were a stock analyst I would definitely rate him a BUY.”
    “We obviously had some frank discussions with Andrea and his agent that a change of scenery might benefit everyone, but his two random and unrelated elbow injuries dismissed whatever trade scenarios were being contemplated,” Colangelo explains. “With the timing of his injuries, we simply just ran out of runway prior to the trade deadline. As far as value, I would disagree [that his is low], good size-to-skill ratio is a commodity in this league, especially the way the game is trending. If Andrea stays, however, I’m hoping [head coach Dwane] Case[y] can find a way to duplicate his tremendous start to the 11-12 campaign, where he was performing at an All-Star level on both ends of the floor.”
    “We gave up a protected first (1-3) for Kyle Lowry and our second in the Rudy Gay trade, so realistically we may have to sit this one out,” says Colangelo. “Given the underwhelming depth and strength of this draft and the fact that we are currently developing three promising rookies in Jonas Valanciunas, Terrence Ross and Quincy Acy, we are not overly concerned about that. If there was ever a year to not have a pick, this is the one. Having said that, if we move up in the lottery and end up with a top pick, we do like a few guys on the board.”
    “Very clearly, veteran presence and leadership will go a long way in rounding out our very young nucleus,” says Colangelo. “We can certainly add some mental and physical toughness to our mix too. A full training camp will obviously help everyone, but I do really like the talent level of the young core we have in place. Of course, we need to add a piece or two to the mix, but we should get appreciably better with our efforts of growing organically.”
    The core group in Toronto is impressive, even more impressive than the one that had most of us believing the team would make the playoffs this season. Despite their struggles of late, there’s every reason to believe that with a couple of tweaks this team should be right back in the playoff chase next season.
    http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-pm-rap...rade-bargnani?

    Really? Shit man, I've seen this movie before and the ending always sucks. As an eternal optimist for years on Toronto, I might be the best contrarian indicator going. I feel absolutely little to no optimism when it comes to anything associated with Toronto outside of Valanciuanas. Maybe they'll turn it around next year after all.

    Boozer for Bargnani and a pick.... make it happen Bryan.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Tortacular's Avatar
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    Trade Bargs sure, but the Boozer thing is the most sideways trade they could make. Raptors trade for aging veteran with bad contract? Seen that movie before too.

    I'm more interested in what they do at the point. I thought Lowry would end up being an upgrade over Calderon, but that turned out to not be the case. His defense wasn't as good as I expected, and he wasn't exactly getting in the lane and creating shots for guys.
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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Tortacular wrote: View Post
    Trade Bargs sure, but the Boozer thing is the most sideways trade they could make. Raptors trade for aging veteran with bad contract? Seen that movie before too.

    I'm more interested in what they do at the point. I thought Lowry would end up being an upgrade over Calderon, but that turned out to not be the case. His defense wasn't as good as I expected, and he wasn't exactly getting in the lane and creating shots for guys.
    I believe the movie starred Antonio Davis (Rap from 31-35 years of age) and Charles Oakley (Rap from 35-37 years of age).

    From what I recall it was a pretty good flick.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I believe the movie starred Antonio Davis (Rap from 31-35 years of age) and Charles Oakley (Rap from 35-37 years of age).

    From what I recall it was a pretty good flick.
    Boozer isn't likely to bring the same things as those guys, though, in my opinion. I'd love to be proven wrong.

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    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    Boozer isn't likely to bring the same things as those guys, though, in my opinion. I'd love to be proven wrong.
    I agree on Oakley. He was one of a kind. Davis, I am not so sure. I am making the assumption you meant from the 'intangible' perspective.

    Looking at simple statistics:

    Boozer at 31: 16.1 points, 9.7 rebounds, 47% fg, 32.2mpg
    Davis at 31: 11.5 points, 8.8 rebounds, 44% fg, 31.4mpg


    Interestingly enough, over the next 3 seaons, Davis actually improved ppg and rpg while fg% dropped as minutes increased:

    Davis at 32: 13.7 points, 10.1 rebounds, 43.3% fg, 35mpg, 79gms
    Davis at 33: 14.5 points, 9.6 rebounds, 42.6% fg, 38.7mpg, 78gms
    Davis at 34: 13.9 points, 8.2 rebounds, 40.7% fg, 35.7mpg, 53gms



    Boozer will not have to log heavy minutes in Toronto either. 30 minutes per game max starting with JV and Amir coming off bench.


    I definintely disagree Boozer is a sideways move for this current Raptors team. Inserting 16/10 in the starting lineup with Amir coming off the bench to play both PF and C positions for his 30mpg would be awesome and a big improvement over anything Bargnani has brought to Toronto this season.... or last.... or the one before.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I agree on Oakley. He was one of a kind. Davis, I am not so sure. I am making the assumption you meant from the 'intangible' perspective.
    Yeah, I am.

    However, the thought of having a legitimate post threat is appealing. I think Valanciunas is going to be one next year, but Boozer has the pedigree. I just cringe at his contract, but maybe I need to consider things more carefully, regarding our overall cap situation having little flexibility anyways, and the potential of snagging a pick as well in exchange for taking on that contract.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Holy shit fire BC already

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    Sure. The Raps are a vet big and a vet pg from being a decent team. I'll go with that. But I don't want BC deciding who those guys are. He has very little success scouting vets and filling needs with them.

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    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    Yeah, I am.

    However, the thought of having a legitimate post threat is appealing. I think Valanciunas is going to be one next year, but Boozer has the pedigree. I just cringe at his contract, but maybe I need to consider things more carefully, regarding our overall cap situation having little flexibility anyways, and the potential of snagging a pick as well in exchange for taking on that contract.
    Exactly. Raps are f*cked anyways. Might as well go all in on what you have.

    Raps have little on the books for 2015-16.... just when the repeater tax would kick in for them. What a coincidence.

    By the way, the pick has been thrown around by me but I've never read that anywhere. That is me just speculating....thought I should make that clear.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    BC pull the plug on Andrea already!

    Unless it lands in the top three, the Raptors will send their lottery pick to Oklahoma City. But this is probably a good draft to have no first-round pick, and this team should be better by just bringing everybody (except maybe Andrea Bargnani) back. They're finishing strong, with five wins in their last six games (three straight over playoff teams), playing some of their best defense of the season.
    Even NBA.com knows Bargnani is bad news here.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Exactly. Raps are f*cked anyways. Might as well go all in on what you have.

    Raps have little on the books for 2015-16.... just when the repeater tax would kick in for them. What a coincidence.

    By the way, the pick has been thrown around by me but I've never read that anywhere. That is me just speculating....thought I should make that clear.
    I'm not sold on the boozer trade, as I'm worried about fit. I think the bold is very important, A LOT of people on here have been shitting on BC for not pulling a boozer bargs trade, but the details weren't known. IF we can get a draft pick along with boozer than I'm in. If it takes us shipping a draft pick out to do it than I'm O U T .

    The devil is in the details.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Looking at simple statistics:
    ...is pointless.

    Davis was a physical, tough guy paint defender. Boozer is a turnstile and a very one way player who Thibs hides very well with Noah covering for his frequent lapses and Taj to simply replace him when even Noah isn't enough. Davis and Boozer are as close to apples vs Oranges as you can get.

    I'd rather they amnesty AB than trade him for a guy like Booz.
    LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Holy shit fire BC already
    +1

    I think the only thing that can rejuvenate a perennially disappointed fanbase is NEW MANAGEMENT next year. WE KNOW what BC is and what he's about. I judge him by his ONE winning season in 7 years......Is that fair?? We can't expect him to come through now with just his option picked up......lame duck GM, lame duck coach?? MLSE had months to look at possible replacements. Get this guy outta here....only a new GM will be able to trade or amnesty Bargs.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote minks77 wrote: View Post
    ...is pointless.

    Davis was a physical, tough guy paint defender. Boozer is a turnstile and a very one way player who Thibs hides very well with Noah covering for his frequent lapses and Taj to simply replace him when even Noah isn't enough. Davis and Boozer are as close to apples vs Oranges as you can get.

    I'd rather they amnesty AB than trade him for a guy like Booz.
    I'm not saying that Boozer is the right answer, but what does amnestying AB accomplish? They will still be above the cap so they still can't sign a good free agent. They may have their full MLE instead of the min-MLE but that's not much different in salary, and who would they get in free agency anyway for the MLE? Good players are not coming here for cheap. If Chicago can offer a 1st rounder with Boozer that's a no brainer in my opinion even though Boozer has his flaws.

    As for Boozer's defense.. I think his defense is under rated. Yes he gets to play with Noah and Gibson and has Thibs as a coach, but Boozer did pretty well in both Cleveland and Utah as well. Not stellar but I wouldn't consider him a liability the way AB was (and is).

    My issue with Boozer is his injury history. I don't think he's capable of playing 82 games. And for his price tag, he better be playing more games then less. I'd personally prefer Gasol (better mentor for JV, expiring contract, veteran with championship experience), but now with Kobe's injury I don't think LA will part with him.

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    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    That is insane. There are no player assets on the ball club, and no prospects for any, to justify that view. The ball club has no prospects, and has a number of low-efficiency high-volume shooters, with forwards who are too small. No cap space or hope for any.

    The team should fire the GM, and then the new guy should clear the cabinets and be the worst team for 5 years in a row, in the hopes that it can accumulate better assets, like a couple of superstars.

    I guess that's what it should do anyway. It would only add up to a few more losses every year than the current roster can expect.
    Clearing the cabinets is easier said than done. You can't simply terminate contracts and trading in the NBA has always been difficult and is only getting harder as the CBA tightens up. No one seems to want Bargs. Gay is a massive cap hit. Demar is still a question mark when it comes to value for the money. It's nice to say "Blow it all up" but its really much harder to do.

    Also I think you are way off base saying that the team has no prospects. JV is definitely a bright light and a keeper that 29 other teams would take in a heartbeat. Ross isn't a washout yet and Lowry is still a very talented player on a relatively cheap ticket (as is Amir). The bench is awful and the most critical backups are the worst of the bunch (pg/f/C) and is truly the area that needs to be addressed. A real back up PG who can run a team, a solid f/c who can actually play and some reliable outside shooting and this is a legit squad.
    LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

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    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I'm not saying that Boozer is the right answer, but what does amnestying AB accomplish? They will still be above the cap so they still can't sign a good free agent. They may have their full MLE instead of the min-MLE but that's not much different in salary, and who would they get in free agency anyway for the MLE? Good players are not coming here for cheap. If Chicago can offer a 1st rounder with Boozer that's a no brainer in my opinion even though Boozer has his flaws.

    As for Boozer's defense.. I think his defense is under rated. Yes he gets to play with Noah and Gibson and has Thibs as a coach, but Boozer did pretty well in both Cleveland and Utah as well. Not stellar but I wouldn't consider him a liability the way AB was (and is).

    My issue with Boozer is his injury history. I don't think he's capable of playing 82 games. And for his price tag, he better be playing more games then less. I'd personally prefer Gasol (better mentor for JV, expiring contract, veteran with championship experience), but now with Kobe's injury I don't think LA will part with him.
    We'll have to agree to disagree about his D. I think it's a joke and disagree that it was any better in clev or utah. Besides the Cavs days were a what 5 years ago? and in Utah he was hurt all the time (and sulking) and was not a good defender when he was healthy. Also, booz pouts and gives half assed effort so although he may be better than AB, his contract is a bitter, evil pill to swallow when you don't know which guy you'll be getting.

    As for amnestying AB, the idea is that just getting rid of him is better than the alt which is being stuck with him. No one is going to give you anyone much better (cap wise or talent wise) and if it costs a draft pick to get rid of AB thats a big hit. As long as AB is on the team the coaches will have to use him and I'm done with that. Addition through subtraction.
    LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    i'm going to be sorely disappointed if BC and Casey aren't fired on the 18th
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote minks77 wrote: View Post

    I'd rather they amnesty AB than trade him for a guy like Booz.
    .... good for you.

    And tell me, what will Toronto do with Bargnani's cap space? Oh right, they'll still have none.

    Boozer is leading an injury depleted Bulls team with a ragtag collection of NBA journeymen in to the playoffs behind some solid coaching.

    Luckily Toronto does, at the moment, have a coach who, when his head is removed from bum, is a very good defensive coach and strategist. Toronto also has a very good defensive backup PF/C in Amir and a blossoming young C comparable to Noah in their NBA careers (although Noah was 2 years older as a rookie).

    I didn't realize all this winning, financial flexibility, and desirable assets Toronto possesses has left the Raptors fan base picking and choosing which upgrade over Bargnani they should pursue.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote minks77 wrote: View Post
    Clearing the cabinets is easier said than done. You can't simply terminate contracts and trading in the NBA has always been difficult and is only getting harder as the CBA tightens up. No one seems to want Bargs. Gay is a massive cap hit. Demar is still a question mark when it comes to value for the money. It's nice to say "Blow it all up" but its really much harder to do.

    Also I think you are way off base saying that the team has no prospects. JV is definitely a bright light and a keeper that 29 other teams would take in a heartbeat. Ross isn't a washout yet and Lowry is still a very talented player on a relatively cheap ticket (as is Amir). The bench is awful and the most critical backups are the worst of the bunch (pg/f/C) and is truly the area that needs to be addressed. A real back up PG who can run a team, a solid f/c who can actually play and some reliable outside shooting and this is a legit squad.
    Chicago media reported the offer was on the table and up to Toronto to take it or leave it for Boozer/Robinson-Bargnani/Lucas.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote minks77 wrote: View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree about his D. I think it's a joke and disagree that it was any better in clev or utah. Besides the Cavs days were a what 5 years ago? and in Utah he was hurt all the time (and sulking) and was not a good defender when he was healthy. Also, booz pouts and gives half assed effort so although he may be better than AB, his contract is a bitter, evil pill to swallow when you don't know which guy you'll be getting.

    As for amnestying AB, the idea is that just getting rid of him is better than the alt which is being stuck with him. No one is going to give you anyone much better (cap wise or talent wise) and if it costs a draft pick to get rid of AB thats a big hit. As long as AB is on the team the coaches will have to use him and I'm done with that. Addition through subtraction.
    Wow. Did Boozer do something to a female family member? For the record his former coaches certainly did not feel the same:

    Of course, Boozer’s injury-plagued past is why his legacy in Utah is tarnished — at least in the minds of many Jazz fans.
    During six seasons with the Jazz, Boozer earned two All-Star berths, played on the U.S. Olympic team and helped Utah reach the 2007 Western Conference finals.

    But those injuries ...

    In Utah, Boozer missed 138 of 492 regular-season games. He played as many as 74 games only three times. In the other three seasons, he played 51, 33 and 37 games.

    Still, Tyrone Corbin remains a Boozer fan, just as Jerry Sloan was when he coached the Jazz.

    "Great guy, great teammate, great guy to work with," Corbin said. "I spent a lot of time working with him. ... Just a great human being. We enjoyed the time we spent together."

    Asked about Boozer’s critics in Utah, Corbin shook his head.

    "I don’t know if the criticism was justified," he said. "But if you’re hurt, you’re hurt. What can you do? And I know he was hurt and always trying his hardest to get back. ...

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/jazz/55...bulls.html.csp

    Cap wise and salary wise, Boozer is a step up from Bargnani.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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