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Thread: HoopsWorld: Raps Still Hoping to Trade Bargnani/BC Fluff

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote minks77 wrote: View Post
    Clearing the cabinets is easier said than done. You can't simply terminate contracts and trading in the NBA has always been difficult and is only getting harder as the CBA tightens up. No one seems to want Bargs. Gay is a massive cap hit. Demar is still a question mark when it comes to value for the money. It's nice to say "Blow it all up" but its really much harder to do.

    Also I think you are way off base saying that the team has no prospects. JV is definitely a bright light and a keeper that 29 other teams would take in a heartbeat. Ross isn't a washout yet and Lowry is still a very talented player on a relatively cheap ticket (as is Amir). The bench is awful and the most critical backups are the worst of the bunch (pg/f/C) and is truly the area that needs to be addressed. A real back up PG who can run a team, a solid f/c who can actually play and some reliable outside shooting and this is a legit squad.
    But how do you propose the Raptors acquire a legit backup PG, a PF/C that gets 20-25 minutes a night and at least one knock down shooter (who isn't a complete liability on D) this summer?

    You admit yourself that the Raptors have very little (zero really) movable assets that would interest other teams. The cap situation is well documented (they're screwed for 2 years). They have no first round pick this summer to address one of the needs (and no second rounders to boot; could have potentially addressed the shooter role with a 2nd).

    This isn't meant to be condescending, I promise. I just don't understand the thinking that this team is only a "couple pieces away" when there just doesn't seem to be a way to get those pieces.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    First of all, let me address how to clear the cupboards. If a player cannot be traded, wait until the contract is expiring and then trade him. Take on other teams' bad contracts if they send along some draft picks too. If JV can be traded for good draft assets now, then do it. He didn't prove anything in his rookie year. He's not another Dwight or something, so he's not as valuable as the picks might be.

    Second paragraph: this is the same bunch of whatifs and nonsense that has been said about the Raps for years -- they're just a good this and a good that away from being "a legit squad" -- you and I have a different definition of that term I think. No more true now than it was in the past.
    So basically your plan is to get rid of everybody for unknown returns, ideally to start fresh next offseason with no committed salary and several draft picks?

    The problem with that is that there's no guarantee that the cap space will lead to any significant free agents signing with the Raptors and there's no guarantee that the draft picks (even high lottery picks) will wind up being players any better than the players that the Raptors would be trading away. You're basically trading away one set of "whatifs and nonsense" for unknown "whatifs and nonsense" in the future. I'm sorry, but that's not a plan, just wishful thinking and frustration with the current team.

  3. #23
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Can I moderate people that suggest trading JV for anyone other than Lebron James? Or is that an abuse of power?

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  5. #24
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    First of all, let me address how to clear the cupboards. If a player cannot be traded, wait until the contract is expiring and then trade him. Take on other teams' bad contracts if they send along some draft picks too. If JV can be traded for good draft assets now, then do it. He didn't prove anything in his rookie year. He's not another Dwight or something, so he's not as valuable as the picks might be.

    Second paragraph: this is the same bunch of whatifs and nonsense that has been said about the Raps for years -- they're just a good this and a good that away from being "a legit squad" -- you and I have a different definition of that term I think. No more true now than it was in the past.
    That's funny hahaha
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  6. #25
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    First of all, let me address how to clear the cupboards. If a player cannot be traded, wait until the contract is expiring and then trade him. Take on other teams' bad contracts if they send along some draft picks too. If JV can be traded for good draft assets now, then do it. He didn't prove anything in his rookie year. He's not another Dwight or something, so he's not as valuable as the picks might be.

    Second paragraph: this is the same bunch of whatifs and nonsense that has been said about the Raps for years -- they're just a good this and a good that away from being "a legit squad" -- you and I have a different definition of that term I think. No more true now than it was in the past.
    Not as good as Howard, no, I'll give you that.

    But he certainly had a much better rookie year than 4yr Georgetown product and 22 year old rookie Roy Hibbert and a very comparable rookie-to-Hibbert's 2nd year:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/...36/roy-hibbert

    The picks are a lottery ticket that might yield Wiggins or Bargnani.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  7. #26
    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    But how do you propose the Raptors acquire a legit backup PG, a PF/C that gets 20-25 minutes a night and at least one knock down shooter (who isn't a complete liability on D) this summer?

    You admit yourself that the Raptors have very little (zero really) movable assets that would interest other teams. The cap situation is well documented (they're screwed for 2 years). They have no first round pick this summer to address one of the needs (and no second rounders to boot; could have potentially addressed the shooter role with a 2nd).

    This isn't meant to be condescending, I promise. I just don't understand the thinking that this team is only a "couple pieces away" when there just doesn't seem to be a way to get those pieces.
    a couple of pieces away from an 8th seed plateau. Not an ideal place but better than a late lottery pick. Just don't see how things could get any better with this core. We have very little leverage but thats never stopped BC. Gotta give him that.
    LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

  8. #27
    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Wow. Did Boozer do something to a female family member? For the record his former coaches certainly did not feel the same:

    Of course, Boozer’s injury-plagued past is why his legacy in Utah is tarnished — at least in the minds of many Jazz fans.



    Cap wise and salary wise, Boozer is a step up from Bargnani.

    I don't like him, he's not that great and you seem very pissed. I wasn't terribly tactful about how I derided the stats comparison of booz and AD, I stand by my opinion though. Is that what got you riled up? I don't think you've ever been this pissy with me.

    How is booz a step up Salary or cap wise? AB is owed 21.5 over the next 2 seasons, second has an ETO. Booz is owed 32.1 guaranteed over the same two years.

    Booz is better than AB, don't get me wrong. But the questions surrounding him are legit. He has been said to not play hard, He has frustrated coaches and teammates. A lot of people in Utah questioned his effort and not just fans. It's commonly held truth that he reneged on a "gentleman's" agreement in Cleveland. Although I can't blame him for taking the money it does call his character into doubt. He has a legit injury history. All that said he is still better than AB.

    But he is not good enough to get us into elite territory. In Chi not only does he have one of the best coaches in the league but you skim over Noah who has had a terrific year (DPOY, imo) and an All Star talent in Deng. Yes they've been banged up but it's not all super booz carrying this shell of a team home. Oh and just because the media reports an unfounded rumour doesn't mean the deal was actually ever close to being a real thing. I mean on the surface it doesn't make sense on any trade machine out there.

    I believe that AB, BC and likely DC all need to be gone. If we're going to be bad we need to sit tight, shed some salary wherever possible (even just by waiting some out) and be bad properly for a change.
    LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

  9. #28
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote minks77 wrote: View Post
    I don't like him, he's not that great and you seem very pissed. I wasn't terribly tactful about how I derided the stats comparison of booz and AD, I stand by my opinion though. Is that what got you riled up? I don't think you've ever been this pissy with me.

    How is booz a step up Salary or cap wise? AB is owed 21.5 over the next 2 seasons, second has an ETO. Booz is owed 32.1 guaranteed over the same two years.

    Booz is better than AB, don't get me wrong. But the questions surrounding him are legit. He has been said to not play hard, He has frustrated coaches and teammates. A lot of people in Utah questioned his effort and not just fans. It's commonly held truth that he reneged on a "gentleman's" agreement in Cleveland. Although I can't blame him for taking the money it does call his character into doubt. He has a legit injury history. All that said he is still better than AB.

    But he is not good enough to get us into elite territory. In Chi not only does he have one of the best coaches in the league but you skim over Noah who has had a terrific year (DPOY, imo) and an All Star talent in Deng. Yes they've been banged up but it's not all super booz carrying this shell of a team home. Oh and just because the media reports an unfounded rumour doesn't mean the deal was actually ever close to being a real thing. I mean on the surface it doesn't make sense on any trade machine out there.

    I believe that AB, BC and likely DC all need to be gone. If we're going to be bad we need to sit tight, shed some salary wherever possible (even just by waiting some out) and be bad properly for a change.
    Not the greatest day yesterday - sorry that carried on to RR, minks.

    AB's contract is a player option. I don't see him passing up $12M given his play.

    Boozer may or may not have his character flaws but they are based on rumours and fan perceptions in Utah. I am not sure how much validity they carry.

    You are correct on the other talent Chicago has. But down the home stretch of the season, it has been Boozer carrying them. Noah has missed 12 of last 14 games.

    I give credit to media report because it was Chicago media leaking it. In the trade machine Boozer/Robinson for Bargnani/JL3 did work.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #29
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Its hard to tell but I wonder how Bargnani feels after 7 years here being a non factor watching the team be a better squad without him? wonder what goes through his head..

  11. #30
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    First of all, let me address how to clear the cupboards. If a player cannot be traded, wait until the contract is expiring and then trade him. Take on other teams' bad contracts if they send along some draft picks too. If JV can be traded for good draft assets now, then do it. He didn't prove anything in his rookie year. He's not another Dwight or something, so he's not as valuable as the picks might be.

    Second paragraph: this is the same bunch of whatifs and nonsense that has been said about the Raps for years -- they're just a good this and a good that away from being "a legit squad" -- you and I have a different definition of that term I think. No more true now than it was in the past.
    WHAT.

    He was the best thing to come out of this season. Please get your head fixed.
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  12. #31
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    First of all, let me address how to clear the cupboards. If a player cannot be traded, wait until the contract is expiring and then trade him. Take on other teams' bad contracts if they send along some draft picks too. If JV can be traded for good draft assets now, then do it. He didn't prove anything in his rookie year. He's not another Dwight or something, so he's not as valuable as the picks might be.

    Second paragraph: this is the same bunch of whatifs and nonsense that has been said about the Raps for years -- they're just a good this and a good that away from being "a legit squad" -- you and I have a different definition of that term I think. No more true now than it was in the past.
    JV will be a top 5, if not top 3 C for about a decade. Get your eyes examined.

  13. #32
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    But how do you propose the Raptors acquire a legit backup PG, a PF/C that gets 20-25 minutes a night and at least one knock down shooter (who isn't a complete liability on D) this summer?
    How do you get a legit backup PG, and a PF/C? It's not a glamorous job. To do it, a team needs to have a strong scouting team.

    For this role a team should particularly looking at 3rd NBA PGs with expiring contracts who are available, and probably Dleague starters. In the past what the Raps have done has been to bring in high scoring PGs like Lucas or that kid who got a trip doub before they cut him during the summer. Things they need to look for instead of scoring:

    1/ability to defend multiple positions
    2/" " " run an offence

    Neither of these two things have been given a priority with Colangelo, but the players are out there because these types of players are only given priority by the Spurs.

    PFs? Probably have to look for vets in Europe. Can't be a guy like Kleiza, but rather a low usage solid post player.

    That's how it's done. I don't think Colangelo is capable of small, smart moves though.

  14. #33
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    How do you get a legit backup PG, and a PF/C? It's not a glamorous job. To do it, a team needs to have a strong scouting team.

    For this role a team should particularly looking at 3rd NBA PGs with expiring contracts who are available, and probably Dleague starters. In the past what the Raps have done has been to bring in high scoring PGs like Lucas or that kid who got a trip doub before they cut him during the summer. Things they need to look for instead of scoring:

    1/ability to defend multiple positions
    2/" " " run an offence

    Neither of these two things have been given a priority with Colangelo, but the players are out there because these types of players are only given priority by the Spurs.

    PFs? Probably have to look for vets in Europe. Can't be a guy like Kleiza, but rather a low usage solid post player.

    That's how it's done. I don't think Colangelo is capable of small, smart moves though.
    I've finally come around to moving on from Colangelo but credit should be given where due. He has made a few small smart moves in his time here. Parker, Garbo, Amir come immediately to mind.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  15. #34
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I've finally come around to moving on from Colangelo but credit should be given where due. He has made a few small smart moves in his time here. Parker, Garbo, Amir come immediately to mind.
    I hear you, but those moves were made 5+ seasons ago.

  16. #35
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Not as good as Howard, no, I'll give you that.

    But he certainly had a much better rookie year than 4yr Georgetown product and 22 year old rookie Roy Hibbert and a very comparable rookie-to-Hibbert's 2nd year:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/...36/roy-hibbert

    The picks are a lottery ticket that might yield Wiggins or Bargnani.
    How in the WORLD did Roy Hibbert make the All-Star team with those numbers? Holy crap. Val can make it next year if given the minutes..
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I've finally come around to moving on from Colangelo but credit should be given where due. He has made a few small smart moves in his time here. Parker, Garbo, Amir come immediately to mind.
    Drafting Val, Derozan, Ed Davis
    Trading for Gay
    Picking up Lowry for what looks like the 12th overall pick
    Getting rid of Hedo

    Albeit there were many bad moves, he has had some success in the draft and making sneaky trades.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  18. #37
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Drafting Val, Derozan, Ed Davis
    Trading for Gay
    Picking up Lowry for what looks like the 12th overall pick
    Getting rid of Hedo

    Albeit there were many bad moves, he has had some success in the draft and making sneaky trades.
    You're looking at the trees but missing the forest.*








    *The forest is nicknamed Perennial Loser by the locals

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  20. #38
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    How in the WORLD did Roy Hibbert make the All-Star team with those numbers? Holy crap. Val can make it next year if given the minutes..
    The key to getting into the all-star team is to play for a team that wins. Indiana wins games, Toronto does not. If the Raptors produced a winning team then Gay and JV would be considered for the team. If they lose as much as they did this year then they won't have a shot, unless they are blowing away their competition statistically which is a hard task.

  21. #39
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Since the pieces are all here anyways, why not see what they can do together with a full training camp and practices?

    Get that legit PF in and backup PG and build chemistry towards next season.

  22. #40
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Drafting Val, Derozan, Ed Davis
    Trading for Gay
    Picking up Lowry for what looks like the 12th overall pick
    Getting rid of Hedo

    Albeit there were many bad moves, he has had some success in the draft and making sneaky trades.
    Those weren't the small type moves that the Raptors are going to have to make to round out the roster barring some substantial trades.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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