View Poll Results: Should ross spend some time in the D-League?

Voters
31. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    10 32.26%
  • No

    21 67.74%
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 74

Thread: Ross situation

  1. #41
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,294
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I disagree especially when considering DeRozan has 4 years experience.
    Experience Schmexperience. I only care about who fucks up less today.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    17,776
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Experience Schmexperience. I only care about who fucks up less today.
    That is a really stupid comment especially when talking about a non-playoff team that is relying on internal growth to improve.

    4 years of little to no growth compared to a rookie who is already on par in my opinion.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    40
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I love women
    Last edited by why_you_mad_tho; Wed Apr 17th, 2013 at 04:12 PM.

  4. Like ReubenJRD liked this post
  5. #44
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,294
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That is a really stupid comment especially when talking about a non-playoff team that is relying on internal growth to improve.

    4 years of little to no growth compared to a rookie who is already on par in my opinion.

    Casey has decided that it is better to yank rookies when they make system mistakes or take bad shots. I'm not a coach, I see value in letting rookies play through them, I also see value in letting the starting five gel, I also see value is making people buy into the system the hard way. He is NOT on par with DeRozan in terms of the schemes. He does pass the eye test because he occasionally gets into peoples grill and makes it look tough. Casey was tasked with making or threatening to make the playoffs as well as developing not one, not two, but three rookies.

    So you are more than welcome to your opinion that Ross is a better or on par individual defender but the team suffers with him on the floor.

  6. #45
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    491
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    So you are more than welcome to your opinion that Ross is a better or on par individual defender but the team suffers with him on the floor.
    The team currently suffers with Demar on the floor, too. When a team is as bad as Toronto is right now, arguing Ross vs. Derozan is like arguing Pinto vs. Corvair. I like them both, and I think both can provide value to a basketball team, but I wouldn't want to have to rely on either of them to markedly improve or anchor the team. Neither one is good enough for that right now, and may never be.

    For what it's worth, if I were designing a team from scratch, I'd take Ross and his potential on a rookie contract over Derozan and his current production at $10M/year. There's not enough separating them right now to easily choose, but one has already shown better defensive instincts and a more-promising 3-pt shot in year 1 than the other has in 4 years, and makes a ton less money. So if a choice has to be made, I would lean to Demar as the trade chip...

    Then again, I'd personally try to keep both DD and Ross, and get rid of Gay instead, for the same reasons I'd choose Ross over DD: younger and cheaper -- plus, possibly easier to coach. But Gay is probably going nowhere until the 2015 trade deadline -- yay, another big expiring contract we have to wait out. Sigh.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  7. #46
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    17,776
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Casey has decided that it is better to yank rookies when they make system mistakes or take bad shots. I'm not a coach, I see value in letting rookies play through them, I also see value in letting the starting five gel, I also see value is making people buy into the system the hard way. He is NOT on par with DeRozan in terms of the schemes. He does pass the eye test because he occasionally gets into peoples grill and makes it look tough. Casey was tasked with making or threatening to make the playoffs as well as developing not one, not two, but three rookies.

    So you are more than welcome to your opinion that Ross is a better or on par individual defender but the team suffers with him on the floor.
    Riiiight.

    Nice verbatim on the Casey talking point this year. Raps have been out of the playoffs for over a month and Casey let Ross rot on bench while AA was colder than Nunavut in February.

    I guess you've never noticed the number of rotations DeRozan missed this season, his 4th year. I guess you also missed all the fuck ups DD had last year but was allowed to play through them. I guess you've also missed how the other teams attack DD or how it is DD blow byes creating the need for rotations. DeROzan is the weak link of D and picks up the other teams worst perimeter player.

    Ross, when not getting totally dicked around on his minutes and opportunities, has provided the areas everyone hopes DD can consistently contribute. DeRozan getting in someone's grill would be a step up.

    I have a feeling the one 4 point play he had in Orlando is the only thing you can think of when it comes to Ross' defensive contribution.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  8. #47
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    141
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    This is why I would have preferred trading derozan/ross instead of ed davis if they were acquiring gay, who is also a wing. I like derozan's work ethic, but ross has more potential. if ross was given starters' minutes from day 1 the way derozan had, ross would probably be among the top rookies. although right now, raps would have been better off if they drafted drummond instead.

    i'm hoping that allan andersen is gone next season so ross can be the 6th man like JR smith or jamal crawford. i think his ceiling could be ray allen. the whole team needs an organized offensive system though. basically majority of the roster are all chuckers, all love the iso and play like kobe. it may work sometimes, but overall it was a failure (lost a lot of key games that cost them a playoff spot).

  9. #48
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    805
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote 2KJ wrote: View Post
    This is why I would have preferred trading derozan/ross instead of ed davis if they were acquiring gay, who is also a wing. I like derozan's work ethic, but ross has more potential. if ross was given starters' minutes from day 1 the way derozan had, ross would probably be among the top rookies. although right now, raps would have been better off if they drafted drummond instead.
    Rumour was that Memphis was interested in Ross and Raps. refused. If that's true, I'm glad. Ed was becoming a good PF and it was sad to see him go but talent wise Raps. were winners of that trade by miles. Yes for the moment Raps. are a little overstocked with wings but that will change in the off-season. I really hope it's Derozan or Fields that goes and not Ross. Maybe not as hard working as Derozan but talent wise Ross is far better.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  10. #49
    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,432
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Ross is going to come out of no where and surprise the league! Its important to keep him on the team, especially if we can sign him to a cheap extension
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  11. #50
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,294
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Riiiight.

    Nice verbatim on the Casey talking point this year. Raps have been out of the playoffs for over a month and Casey let Ross rot on bench while AA was colder than Nunavut in February.

    I guess you've never noticed the number of rotations DeRozan missed this season, his 4th year. I guess you also missed all the fuck ups DD had last year but was allowed to play through them. I guess you've also missed how the other teams attack DD or how it is DD blow byes creating the need for rotations. DeROzan is the weak link of D and picks up the other teams worst perimeter player.

    Ross, when not getting totally dicked around on his minutes and opportunities, has provided the areas everyone hopes DD can consistently contribute. DeRozan getting in someone's grill would be a step up.

    I have a feeling the one 4 point play he had in Orlando is the only thing you can think of when it comes to Ross' defensive contribution.
    Is this snark or am I being over sensitive?

  12. #51
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,294
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I'll respond anyway.

    Yes I regurgitate everything Casey says as I have no thoughts of of my own.

    Here is what I think. Neither one of us sees Ross in practice. Neither one of us is with the team all the time. So consideration number 1 I would offer is. We only see what he does in games.

    Getting up in someones grill is great if once you get the ball out of their hands you still meet all your other defensive obligations, not bite on ball fakes, provide help, double team where you are supposed to etc... Now again from what I've seen Ross is great at staying directly in front of his man, crowding him etc...and this looks like someone playing great defense until you realize it's a team concept. Which would be my second point. DeRozan plays within the team concept, I would say, better. You are free to disagree with this. I go only based on what I see (I've missed exactly two games all season and half of a couple more). If you want an even better example of this look at Fields who excels beyond both of them, is religious about getting a hand in the face of shooters and nearly made my basketball penis explode during the Knicks games.

    On the offensive end what I see is a kid in full out chucking mode. I don't see him looking for his team mates. I don't see him opting to drive (although that has picked up recently). I don't see him passing up an okay shot in order to get a better one. He comes off the screen and whether he has an inch of daylight or a yard he jacks a long 2 or a 3.

    You could argue that Casey is running sets that only get him those shots. I would argue its still early in the shot clock and you don't have to take the first girl that winks at you when walk in the bar.

    I will concede that Casey is not an offensive specialist. Hell, I think even he might concede that. But I have to believe that Colangelo hired a guy that knows more than two fans, who happen to study the game for fun.

  13. #52
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    17,776
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I'll respond anyway.

    Yes I regurgitate everything Casey says as I have no thoughts of of my own.

    Here is what I think. Neither one of us sees Ross in practice. Neither one of us is with the team all the time. So consideration number 1 I would offer is. We only see what he does in games.

    Getting up in someones grill is great if once you get the ball out of their hands you still meet all your other defensive obligations, not bite on ball fakes, provide help, double team where you are supposed to etc... Now again from what I've seen Ross is great at staying directly in front of his man, crowding him etc...and this looks like someone playing great defense until you realize it's a team concept. Which would be my second point. DeRozan plays within the team concept, I would say, better. You are free to disagree with this. I go only based on what I see (I've missed exactly two games all season and half of a couple more). If you want an even better example of this look at Fields who excels beyond both of them, is religious about getting a hand in the face of shooters and nearly made my basketball penis explode during the Knicks games.

    On the offensive end what I see is a kid in full out chucking mode. I don't see him looking for his team mates. I don't see him opting to drive (although that has picked up recently). I don't see him passing up an okay shot in order to get a better one. He comes off the screen and whether he has an inch of daylight or a yard he jacks a long 2 or a 3.

    You could argue that Casey is running sets that only get him those shots. I would argue its still early in the shot clock and you don't have to take the first girl that winks at you when walk in the bar.

    I will concede that Casey is not an offensive specialist. Hell, I think even he might concede that. But I have to believe that Colangelo hired a guy that knows more than two fans, who happen to study the game for fun.
    So in summary:

    Ross plays good individual defense, DeRozan not so much.
    Ross is much more aggressive and better fighting through/over screens, DeRozan not so much.
    Ross plays poor team defense, DeRozan is still not good but better.
    Ross has had his minutes limited in his rookie season, DeRozan has had unlimited minutes for 4 years including the last 2 with Casey.


    So in conclusion:

    Ross must be retarded and he'll never learn team defensive concepts nor get better with experience despite the fact he is already a better individual defender.




    Not too concerned on the offense as it is deviating away from the original issue of defense. However on offense if DeRozan had a three point shot and went hard on every drive, DeRozan would probably be an all-star.


    The bold is something I've already said. In fact it was what started this exchange back in post #15.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  14. #53
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,294
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    in regards to the minutes being limited.

    I believe DeRozan was limited to around 18 - 20 a game in his first year. Yes this is more than Ross gets now. However we are supposed to be at different stages of building. For DeRozan's first year we were playing for the playoffs but the 2nd and 3rd year we were playing because we had an NBA team and the rest of the league would get mad at us if we didn't play. During those two years there was this who gives a fuck play the young guy 30 plus a night attitude.


    Ross could be retarded I can't speak to that as I have not seen his test scores. I thought I saw him smack his own face a few times but that could be simple frustration.

    Acy has been unleashed this last little while. The minutes restrictions on Jonas have been lifted for a while. To me this says Ross MUST be doing something wrong either in attitude or approach.

    I don't think I said DeRozan was a poor individual defender. Based on the eye test he is a painfully average one.

  15. #54
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    New Brunswick
    Posts
    2,149
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think it's easy to say Ross has more potential. Whether he makes big strides in year 2 and 3 is the main question. I'm not worried about his defense as he gains experience

  16. #55
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    6,143
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Trading Ross would be such a boneheaded move i can't even express clearly how stupid and damaging it would be
    @jerboat

  17. #56
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    17,776
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    in regards to the minutes being limited.

    I believe DeRozan was limited to around 18 - 20 a game in his first year. Yes this is more than Ross gets now. However we are supposed to be at different stages of building. For DeRozan's first year we were playing for the playoffs but the 2nd and 3rd year we were playing because we had an NBA team and the rest of the league would get mad at us if we didn't play. During those two years there was this who gives a fuck play the young guy 30 plus a night attitude.


    Ross could be retarded I can't speak to that as I have not seen his test scores. I thought I saw him smack his own face a few times but that could be simple frustration.

    Acy has been unleashed this last little while. The minutes restrictions on Jonas have been lifted for a while. To me this says Ross MUST be doing something wrong either in attitude or approach.

    I don't think I said DeRozan was a poor individual defender. Based on the eye test he is a painfully average one.
    Or that his coach has a bias against young players..... which would be a fair statement considering he threw them under the bus in the same manner BC threw Casey under the bus in LA vs Clippers on television earlier in season. If Ross was an issue with work ethic or personality, that will come out, it always does (Lowry conflict, James Johnson conflict, BC-DC conflict, etc.) but there has not been a whisper of Ross in any negative manner.

    When you look at where the Raptors are as an organization and who the alternative is versus playing Ross, the kid did not get a legit chance this season. This is extremely sad because for all intents and purposes, outside of JV, this was another lost season - especially when the defensive rating plunged back to join the company of worst in the league - and makes you wonder exactly what the torture of last season was for.

    And not to go off topic again, but Acy is the only PF on the roster with the trade of ED and the injury to AB. The small ball lineups for the most part have been an epic fail this season.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #57
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    2,869
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I don't think the team can have both Ross and DeMar on the same roster. Ross needs development time. He could be a good 6th man but I think it will take years before he is established in that role. If DeMar played SF and Gay was not acquired I can see the two working out together but with Gay/DeMar taking a majority of the wings minutes, I just think it will continue to hurt Ross' development.

    If wins matter next season then veteran backups will probably end up with more bench minutes anyway.

    I would personally rather trade DeMar because he is going to be costing $9.5M a season but I don't think he will be traded.. as such for Ross' sake I hope the team trades him to another team so that another team can give him the time he needs to develop in to a good player.

    I don't think Ross is as good as TMAC was so I'm not fearing that scenario... although I do think Ross will have a better career than DeMar if he got the right development so that will be a burn. However when you draft the BPA, at some point you have to exchange that asset into something that fits the team better.

    I think Ross' worth will be a lot higher this offseason then any other time considering he will not be developing fast enough due to him not being able to get the minutes he needs to show other GM's what he's capable of.

    I think this off season is important to determine who is more important for the core going forward... DeMar or Terrence. I think Bryan will choose DeMar even though I wouldn't personally agree with that choice.

  19. #58
    Raptors Republic All-Star iblastoff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,341
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Or that his coach has a bias against young players.....
    JV is younger than ross and he definitely got more time than ross did. i doubt its just bias that kept him off the floor. of course JV's position doesn't have any great alts to go to, but ross still hasn't shown anything that keeps him on the floor. AA is still way better than ross is.

    as for ross being a supposed driver, who cares seeing as his FT% is worse than JV's. a shooter that can't make FT's is just beyond me. he's barely above landry fields in this regard.
    Last edited by iblastoff; Thu Apr 18th, 2013 at 11:23 AM.

  20. #59
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    17,776
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    JV is younger than ross and he definitely got more time than ross did. i doubt its just bias that kept him off the floor. of course JV's position doesn't have any great alts to go to, but ross still hasn't shown anything that keeps him on the floor. AA is still way better than ross is.

    as for ross being a supposed driver, who cares seeing as his FT% is worse than JV's. a shooter that can't make FT's is just beyond me. he's barely above landry fields in this regard.
    Way better? Hardly. You seem to forget Toronto are a non-playoff team and, except for a run to end the season when games mattered little, they would have been a mid-lottery team. What should the objective of this team be? Play and develop 21/22 year old Ross or a at the start of next season 31 year old Anderson? A look at some per36 minute stats might be eye opening for some posters; then consider Ross is just starting his professional career; and then wonder what his stats would look like minus 2 games versus the Knicks and 1 game versus OKC.

    Ross made strides towards the end of the season in free throw. He finished the year at 71% and was just under 85% for the final 2 months.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  21. #60
    Raptors Republic Rookie TSN3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    30
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I don't think the team can have both Ross and DeMar on the same roster. Ross needs development time. He could be a good 6th man but I think it will take years before he is established in that role. If DeMar played SF and Gay was not acquired I can see the two working out together but with Gay/DeMar taking a majority of the wings minutes, I just think it will continue to hurt Ross' development.
    So true. Barring significant injuries to Derozan or Gay, I don't see any other way for Ross to get the kind of minutes he'll need to be consistent and develop. Who knows, maybe he works hard this summer and pushes Demar next season, but right now Rudy and Demar are the key wing players logging major minutes, and as long as that's the case, I don't see the Raps getting the most out of Ross.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •