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Thread: Raptors Year in Review: Tim Chisholm of TSN

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Default Raptors Year-in-Review: Guards

    I figure that Tim Chisholm's articles would be a good basis to get similar discussion going here on RR, as the 2012-2013 season winds down on our Raptors.

    Background article LINK: http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=420490

    Review: Guards LINK: http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=420824

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    I think there's been a consensus around here since the Calderon-Gay trade that the Raptors #1 priority going into the offseason is upgrading the 2nd unit, starting with the backup PG. Not only does the position itself need to be improved, but so much of the 2nd unit's success is dependent on a PG who is able to facilitate ball movement and setup the other players for good looks; definitely Lucas' greatest weakness as a PG. I'd be fine with Lucas coming back (team option) as the 3rd PG, to provide PG depth and streaky scoring that could even get spot minutes at SG with the 2nd unit in a 2-PG backcourt.

    As for the SG spot, I think the future revolves around the decision to be made with DeRozan. I don't think it makes sense to keep both DeRozan and Ross, considering that Gay & DeRozan will play the bulk of wing (SF/SG) minutes and the fact that Fields provides an entirely different set of skills (ie: defense, off-ball offensive play and rebounding), while also likely being highly untradeable due to contract and injury situation. If the team keeps DeRozan, Ross should become sweetener in Bargnani trade scenarios. If the team believes strongly in Ross' future and likes the potential fit of Fields beside Gay in the starting lineup, then it would make sense to trade DeRozan (either with Bargnani or on his own in another trade). DeRozan gives them another big trade chip, both in terms of desirability (age, skill, potential) and the total salary that could be returned in trade (up to $11.975M).

    Overall I think Chisholm's articles paint a pretty fair and accurate picture of the Raptors guard play this season.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I think there's been a consensus around here since the Calderon-Gay trade that the Raptors #1 priority going into the offseason is upgrading the 2nd unit, starting with the backup PG. Not only does the position itself need to be improved, but so much of the 2nd unit's success is dependent on a PG who is able to facilitate ball movement and setup the other players for good looks; definitely Lucas' greatest weakness as a PG. I'd be fine with Lucas coming back (team option) as the 3rd PG, to provide PG depth and streaky scoring that could even get spot minutes at SG with the 2nd unit in a 2-PG backcourt.

    As for the SG spot, I think the future revolves around the decision to be made with DeRozan. I don't think it makes sense to keep both DeRozan and Ross, considering that Gay & DeRozan will play the bulk of wing (SF/SG) minutes and the fact that Fields provides an entirely different set of skills (ie: defense, off-ball offensive play and rebounding), while also likely being highly untradeable due to contract and injury situation. If the team keeps DeRozan, Ross should become sweetener in Bargnani trade scenarios. If the team believes strongly in Ross' future and likes the potential fit of Fields beside Gay in the starting lineup, then it would make sense to trade DeRozan (either with Bargnani or on his own in another trade). DeRozan gives them another big trade chip, both in terms of desirability (age, skill, potential) and the total salary that could be returned in trade (up to $11.975M).

    Overall I think Chisholm's articles paint a pretty fair and accurate picture of the Raptors guard play this season.
    agree with this, however i'd like it to be known that if Ross gets traded i will be wildly and incredibly upset. honestly. I really hope the suits upstairs bring in a new GM and coach who know what the fuck we're doing because this season made it PAINFULLY clear that this team has some real nuggets of talent, but need to be utilized and developed PROPERLY.

    Demar, i love you, but its time to cut bait and its not your fault, bud. It's Bryan's. It's not you, it's us. Well, it's kind of you too, but i appreciate how hard you work and your love for the team. In a perfect world you'd make a fantastic 6th man but your contract is crazy. Steve Spiros crazy. At the very least, we made you a rich man. Godspeed, young man.
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    What really needs to happen this summer is for everyone to work towards unleashing the version of Kyle Lowry that the Raptors thought they were acquiring when they gave up a lottery pick for him last July. Lowry, by his own admission, needs to seriously up the quality of his play, Casey needs to structure the offence in such a way as to exploit his best qualities and the front office needs to ensure that the right compliment of players surround him. Last year, it felt as though everyone involved saw Lowry as such an ideal fit that he'd just slide right in and produce. Heading into next year, everyone involved now knows it's going to take a lot more work than that to make the most of this marriage.
    Boom.

    There it is.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Boom.

    There it is.
    Totally agree.

    There was another paragraph in one of Chisholm's articles (the newer of the two about DeRozan, I think) that mentions moving DeRozan as a valuable trade chip could have several trickle-down benefits, regardless of the benefit of whatever comes back in trade: first, Fields is a better fit alongside Gay, providing perimeter defense and off-ball play; second, removing DeRozan as a heavy usage 2nd scoring option would allow Lowry to play to his penetrating/scoring strength more often, since he'd be needed more as a scorer than he currently is behind the Gay/DeRozan tandem.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Totally agree.

    There was another paragraph in one of Chisholm's articles (the newer of the two about DeRozan, I think) that mentions moving DeRozan as a valuable trade chip could have several trickle-down benefits, regardless of the benefit of whatever comes back in trade: first, Fields is a better fit alongside Gay, providing perimeter defense and off-ball play; second, removing DeRozan as a heavy usage 2nd scoring option would allow Lowry to play to his penetrating/scoring strength more often, since he'd be needed more as a scorer than he currently is behind the Gay/DeRozan tandem.
    Boom.

    There it is.

    Raptors play east-west whereas Lowry thrives north-south.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Boom.

    There it is.
    Except that this passage comes a couple paragraphs after Chisolm has already said this:

    Since the All-Star break, Lowry has shot 38.3 per cent from the field, 30.7 per cent from three and just 69.9 per cent from the free throw line. He has been given far less freedom than he had during his last two years in Houston and that is reflected in the offensive output he's offered since getting his starting job back. He has to be a standout three-point shooter, given the makeup of the roster and has to be a more efficient scorer, in general, if the team's wings are going to remain mostly unchanged heading into '13-'14. This team is starved for perimeter efficiency with Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan doing their thing, so Lowry has to help balance out their deficiencies, not exacerbate them.
    There's a cognitive dissonance in those two statements. What are you asking Lowry to do? Be his aggressive, inefficient self who exacerbates the issue, or be a floor leader who can balance out the deficiencies of his teammates? It can't be both, and Casey can't design an offense that fits that type of inefficient backcourt combination.

    Not only that, but Chisolm doesn't even touch on how those 3 guys play defense, which ultimately has a huge impact on the type of offense they can run. All three are poor and/or risk-taking defenders -- ie. they're not good a 'team defense' -- so they don't get an aopportunity to run the type of more free-wheeling offense that would suit their current perimeter players' offensive weaknesses better.

    I agree with his point that, all else remaining the same, Lowry needs to adapt his game to get the most out of the roster as a whole; and that, because Demar and Gay are both inefficient scorers who need a lot of shots to get their buckets, that means Lowry needs to be even more efficient, both shooting and distributing, to compensate. Maybe that's simply not possible, however. I think he's been trying; just not sure it's within his skillset.

    If you want Lowry to play the way he played in Houston, then you need to get rid of one or both of Gay/Derozan (or, ask them to adjust their games for the good of the team instead of asking Lowry to do it). It comes back to the same point: this roster is ill-built to play together. There are players with value, but their value is drastically lessened by their fit as a complete unit here in Toronto. And it would seem to me that, given the money already allotted to Gay and Demar, fitting pieces around Lowry is not likely on the agenda.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Boom.

    There it is.
    In order for a drive and kick PG to work you need a 35 - 40% 3pt shooter in either corner and a big that can facilitate.

    Rudy and DeMar both pledged to religiously work on their 3 ball. Pau Gasol is actually the ideal fit in terms of skillset.

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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Except that this passage comes a couple paragraphs after Chisolm has already said this:



    There's a cognitive dissonance in those two statements. What are you asking Lowry to do? Be his aggressive, inefficient self who exacerbates the issue, or be a floor leader who can balance out the deficiencies of his teammates? It can't be both, and Casey can't design an offense that fits that type of inefficient backcourt combination.

    Not only that, but Chisolm doesn't even touch on how those 3 guys play defense, which ultimately has a huge impact on the type of offense they can run. All three are poor and/or risk-taking defenders -- ie. they're not good a 'team defense' -- so they don't get an aopportunity to run the type of more free-wheeling offense that would suit their current perimeter players' offensive weaknesses better.

    I agree with his point that, all else remaining the same, Lowry needs to adapt his game to get the most out of the roster as a whole; and that, because Demar and Gay are both inefficient scorers who need a lot of shots to get their buckets, that means Lowry needs to be even more efficient, both shooting and distributing, to compensate. Maybe that's simply not possible, however. I think he's been trying; just not sure it's within his skillset.

    If you want Lowry to play the way he played in Houston, then you need to get rid of one or both of Gay/Derozan (or, ask them to adjust their games for the good of the team instead of asking Lowry to do it). It comes back to the same point: this roster is ill-built to play together. There are players with value, but their value is drastically lessened by their fit as a complete unit here in Toronto. And it would seem to me that, given the money already allotted to Gay and Demar, fitting pieces around Lowry is not likely on the agenda.
    Your quote is exactly the point. Lowry has been told to do the opposite of what has made him successful in Houston.

    Inefficient? This year he is slightly below average but he is playing looking over his shoulder and asked to change what he has naturally always done.

    That is quite the perception and twist you have on Lowry. It was known how Lowry played the game when he was brought in from Houston. What I want is him to be the player that was brought in from Houston.

    I am praying DeRozan is traded so we have one less player who needs to have the air pounded off the ball waiting for him to run around screens to settle for a 22 foot jump shot.

    As for Casey, I am assuming you watch the games. I've seen better offense run in high school. That is on the coach. And prior to Calderon's trade it was hardly a joy to experience either. How many stretches of games did we endure 5-8minute scoring droughts because the 20+ft jumpers were not falling.... there is a reason those shots are always available.
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    The problem with 'letting Lowry go' is it means taking away usage from Gay and Demar.

    Now I don't have a problem with that personally. But this organization just claimed Gay + Derozan are their 'building blocks'.


    If you want Lowry to play the way he played in Houston, then you need to get rid of one or both of Gay/Derozan (or, ask them to adjust their games for the good of the team instead of asking Lowry to do it). It comes back to the same point: this roster is ill-built to play together.
    Thats what it is.

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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    In order for a drive and kick PG to work you need a 35 - 40% 3pt shooter in either corner and a big that can facilitate.

    Rudy and DeMar both pledged to religiously work on their 3 ball. Pau Gasol is actually the ideal fit in terms of skillset.
    Right.

    So trade DeMar already or make him a 6th man.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Right.

    So trade DeMar already or make him a 6th man.
    If he doesn't come back with a 3pt shot I would skip the 6th man part and go straight to the trade.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Right.

    So trade DeMar already or make him a 6th man.
    No. Ugh.

    Let's use the MLE. lol

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    I say that because my ideal would be Landry Fields (healthy) in the 6th man role

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    It would be a shame, and a total waste, if Lowry comes back next season looking to pass than create.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Inefficient? This year he is slightly below average but he is playing looking over his shoulder and asked to change what he has naturally always done.
    ...
    It was known how Lowry played the game when he was brought in from Houston. What I want is him to be the player that was brought in from Houston.
    ...
    As for Casey, I am assuming you watch the games. I've seen better offense run in high school. That is on the coach. And prior to Calderon's trade it was hardly a joy to experience either. How many stretches of games did we endure 5-8minute scoring droughts because the 20+ft jumpers were not falling.... there is a reason those shots are always available.
    First point: I don't care WHY he's been inefficient (and it's not just about his own #s; he's the PG, he's responsible for the overall offensive efficiency when he's on the floor), just that he has been. He's a 27yo professional basketball player; if he can't deal with those "challenges" you mention, then he's not a good fit for this team.

    Second point: Yes, it was certainly well known. But Casey didn't bring him in, Colangelo did. This has nothing to do with how he has performed since bringing him in. His style of play and his on-court decisions made him a pariah of sorts in Houston, and he wasn't adding to team success there, either. In other words, I'm not so sure that "Kyle playing Kyle's game" is in the best interest of any team trying to win on a consistent basis.

    Final point: I simply don't agree about the offense Casey is trying to implement. You keep brushing over all the challenges for Casey in trying to get this current group to run the defense and offense he has designed. And yet, you're willing to give Lowry the benefit of the doubt. Strange perception/twist on Casey.

    In fact, as you yourself have said, we *know* from history what to expect from Lowry when he's playing "his" game -- and it's not great, in terms of team results. We also know what to expect from Casey when he's getting full buy-in to his plan (witness last year, and the Dallas Mavericks of championship fame) -- and it was pretty damn good. He's definitely more comfortable coaching defense than offense, but again, O is reliant on D. If they're playing BS defense as they have been most of this year, they simply cannot play a run-out oriented offense. If you're going to play BS defense, you absolutely need a rock-solid halfcourt offense. And that doesn't play to the strengths of Lowry, Derozan or Gay.

    I'm not sure why you continue to assume it's Casey's fault and not the fault of the new players in terms of not continuing the positive progression from last year.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I say that because my ideal would be Landry Fields (healthy) in the 6th man role
    I'm fine with Ross or Fields as starter or 6th man next to Gay.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm fine with Ross or Fields as starter or 6th man next to Gay.
    yeah I can live with that. I'd prefer having JJ Reddick somehow

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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    First point: I don't care WHY he's been inefficient (and it's not just about his own #s; he's the PG, he's responsible for the overall offensive efficiency when he's on the floor), just that he has been. He's a 27yo professional basketball player; if he can't deal with those "challenges" you mention, then he's not a good fit for this team.

    Second point: Yes, it was certainly well known. But Casey didn't bring him in, Colangelo did. This has nothing to do with how he has performed since bringing him in. His style of play and his on-court decisions made him a pariah of sorts in Houston, and he wasn't adding to team success there, either. In other words, I'm not so sure that "Kyle playing Kyle's game" is in the best interest of any team trying to win on a consistent basis.

    Final point: I simply don't agree about the offense Casey is trying to implement. You keep brushing over all the challenges for Casey in trying to get this current group to run the defense and offense he has designed. And yet, you're willing to give Lowry the benefit of the doubt. Strange perception/twist on Casey.

    In fact, as you yourself have said, we *know* from history what to expect from Lowry when he's playing "his" game -- and it's not great, in terms of team results. We also know what to expect from Casey when he's getting full buy-in to his plan (witness last year, and the Dallas Mavericks of championship fame) -- and it was pretty damn good. He's definitely more comfortable coaching defense than offense, but again, O is reliant on D. If they're playing BS defense as they have been most of this year, they simply cannot play a run-out oriented offense. If you're going to play BS defense, you absolutely need a rock-solid halfcourt offense. And that doesn't play to the strengths of Lowry, Derozan or Gay.

    I'm not sure why you continue to assume it's Casey's fault and not the fault of the new players in terms of not continuing the positive progression from last year.
    How has he been inefficient? You clearly don't care for stats so I am not sure what you are making your claims from. When I say he is been slightly below average I mean his TS% is 54.4% while the average NBA PG is 53.3% and his eFG% is 48.4% and average for NBA PG is 49.1% (from theNBAGeek.com). What Lowry has been asked to do this year is akin to asking a neurosurgeon to start doing orthopedics after 7 years or ask a math teacher to start teaching english after 7 years. You think the transition is going to be a smooth one? Your bias against Lowry is blatant. Also on a team with a dreadful OffRtg of 100.9 since February 1st, Lowry has a personal OffRtg of 102.8. How is Lowry responsible for overall offensive efficiency when the main form of offense that has been devised by the coaching staff is ISO-ISO-ISO-JUMP SHOT-ISO-ISO-ISO? An ISO driven offense is not on Lowry, it is on Casey.

    Not sure where you are getting your take on the lack of success Lowry has had. He was the starting PG in 71 of 75 games in 2010-11 where HOU went 43-39 in the west with the 3rd best PPG (105.9) and the 4th best OffRtg (111.3) coached by a guy named Rick Adelman.... imagine that! In 2011-12, he was the starting PG when he went down with injury and the team was 21-19 and 21-17 in the games he started and played at that time. The team finished the year 13-15 with him either not starting or coming off the bench. Relative to the Raptors last 4 seasons that is nearly championship calibre.... and it was done with a mediocre supporting cast.

    Casey might not have brought him in but he certainly bowed down at the beginning of the relationship, anointing him the starting PG and singing all the attributes and praises that he was brought in for but has had little opportunity to display. In fact it was so bad Calderon's agent requested a trade only to see Casey come back and say nothing had been decided.

    Casey gets no benefit of the doubt because he calls timeouts for plays that turn in to turnovers on a consistent basis; he can't run a play to inbound a ball in pressure situations; his sub patterns and rotations are ever changing and ridiculous; and I am not sure what defense or offense he is attempting to run this season. Offense is a mish-mash of ISO 21foot jump shots and 21foot jump shots off screens. Defense appears to be foul the other team (fun fact: Toronto through 80 games has 1802 personal fouls; 2nd is GSW with an extra game at 1736).

    Yes I do know what to expect from Lowry when playing his game from his time in Houston as discussed above. Unfortunately we don't know what to expect from Lowry playing his game minus Bargnani and healthy. We know that a healthy Lowry in his first three games this year was incredibly exciting and led to 2 very close losses despite an injured Fields and a disinterested Bargnani. We've had Lowry playing his game with Bargnani and we've had Lowry playing Jose's game without Bargnani.

    If Casey gets the praise from last season, he also gets the fall for the decline this season. He has already admitted he was focused on offense this season to the detriment of D - it is in fact the opposite situation from the year before when it was all D and O suffered. How is it on new players not buying in on D when a full year was spent on it last season with minimal time spent this year? Defensive rating gives some insights:

    Pre-Gay: 105.4 (Raps 16-30, Lowry 16 starts, 27mpg)
    Post-Gay: 104.1 (Raps 16-18, Lowry 34 starts, 32mpg)

    Pre-Gay Lowry individual DefRtg starting: 106.7
    Pre-Gay Calderon individual DefRtg starting: 106.7

    Crazy enough the best stretch of defense the Raptors played this season was the first 4 games with the free wheeling and dealing Lowry where they had an injured Fields and disinterested #tradeBargnani with a DefRtg of 99.0.
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    lowry is a better fit for any team than derozan. he can do everything a pg is asked to do. demars game involves taking the worst shot in the game over and over again. you shouldnt ask the better player to stop playing his game so that somebody else can play theirs

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